Has everything happened before. It sure feels like it.

**Nirvana Starseed** · 07-17-2005 10:52 AM

No matter what I decide to write. It seems this was always going to happen.
This thread was always going to happen I remember it. Every thread that was created, yeah that is the way it happens like a movie script being played out.

I look back and see the events and at what I have thought, said, written. And are totally indifferent to it. And remember, yeah that is the way it was always going to happen.
I was always going to write this.

ok I have a pencil in my hand and it is blue and I can drop it or break it in half.
I break it in half with my forehead.....

What determines my decision to do that???????
Was it predetermined? Was the pencil always going to be broken.....
(really I do not have a blue pencil and did not do that)

yes.... because it is now broken and that can never be changed. It happened, and cannot be undone. So that means it was always going to happen?

so what is time.....

Is time a perception of data flowing in a linear direction because that is the only way we are capable of perceiving the information. Does future or past exist, if not. Why have I now broken a pencil and before it was not broken. That means the pencil was not broken and is broken at the same time. but no, what allowed me to break the pencil in the first place. time must have happened as I broke it. So time was a movement. wtf???

how does this work.....someone help me out? I dont understand how time can exist. If there is only the present moment then how come past things and future things happen and flow. I will probally be somewhere totally different when you read this. These words were re-arranged on the keyboard as a result of my so called decision in 'time' and now later on, you see this result. Yet past does not exist. And since I am still here right now, and the future has not happened. I can still say that soon I will not be here online. So then what am I. Am I online or not. Was I online. am I both? according to time, which doesn't even make sense. There is only this moment. but apparantly. there was a past moment which now does not exist. And a future moment. but that doesn't exist now. so how does that work? How can time move around and do that when everything just exists here now

So that means all forms and events are illusions, because they are not really moving around. the entire thing is dream that is static, form is not real. If I was outside time that means everything would happen at once? But then if things are infinite how can it ever end. how could it ever be seen at once.

i dont know what I'm saying but i'm probally insane thinking about this time concept and this dejavu.

have you already made all decisions? according to time, you have not made a decision. but if you look at your 'past'. look at all the decisions you have made. Why can't you see your future decisions. is it really unknown? have you really not made them?

What if you could calculate every consideration about cause and effect, Then you could know for sure what decisions were going to be made and what was going to happen.

or do we have free will and can choose from the infinite possibilites that have already happened or were bound to happen sooner or later.

I have dejavu all the time and I get this screwed up feeling that everything has just happened, yet i can't remember it until it has happened. maybe I am just tuning into the oneness and can recognize the possibilities that were always going to come about.

If you made it to here reading that well done. it is alot of ramble. I still cant figure out the dejavu feeling, so it makes me think alot about time. Purpose. and the structure of everything.

I thought so much, had so many things floating around in my head. It turned to slush and I discovered nothing.

**AirRick101** · 07-17-2005 04:59 PM

I once read there is no time, only movement. And it's true. Don't let the clocks fool you, they themselves need physical movement to give us the concept of time. The planets revolve and rotate, they're merely MOVING, no indication of time here, unless we choose.

I've realized how time does not exist. Tomorrow is no further away from today as a million years.

I dunno about time being linear, you can choose that viewpoint, and it's a valid one, because people use it. I find it helpful to choose between different perceptions based on your situation. I talked about this with people...

The future has many different possibilities, but at the same time, not a single possibility, because the future is going to run one way, and only one way, and in that sense it is predetermined. I don't want to go crazier than I already am either, so i'll stop.

**Universal Mind** · 07-18-2005 11:26 PM

There is a 100% chance that the future will happen the way that it is going to end up happening.

If the big bang happened again exactly the same way it did last time, the universe would happen the same way again. It is all bound to happen a certain way, based on the laws of physics. There are no uncaused events. Everything is determined by the laws of reality.

Perhaps the big bang happened last time the way it did the time before that. So maybe this universe has happened this way an infinite number of times, and will do it an infinite number of times more.

**AirRick101** · 07-19-2005 01:47 AM

Yeah, exactly what I was saying. I double Universal's post

It's true that we can "change the future", but that's only because we don't know what the future is. So changing the future is an illusion, because it's 100% predetermined based on what is happening before it. Not to say changing our paths isn't a practical method, it is. After you understand how both possibilites is true, then you can accept it as a paradox...

**bradybaker** · 07-19-2005 02:30 AM

Everything that can possibly happen will happen.

OR

Everything that happens will happen again and again forever.

Think about it. Look at the universe as a never ending cycle of destruction and creation.

1) Big Bang
2) Subatomic particles play out for a few trillion years
3) Big Crunch
4) Repeat

Therefore, if the Big Bang has the exact same geometry each time, the same course of events will play out each time. Forever. Validating the second statement.

If, however, the geometry differs from cycle to cycle. Everything that can possibly happen will happen. In one cycle, up will be down...black will be white. In others, everything will be the same as it is now...but Steven Spielberg will spell his name "Stephen". And everything in between!!

Of course, it's possible that the universe will continuing expanding forever...this would tend to indicate that this is our one and only shot.

**Rakkantekimusouka** · 07-21-2005 12:52 AM

When you see yourself breaking the pencil with the floor, and your forehead, what you're seeing is what occured/is occuring in other dimensions. You don't know what will happen in this dimension until it happens, you don't know which fate will be yours.

**Nirvana Starseed** · 07-22-2005 09:10 AM

I dont believe eveything is predetermine. Flawed thinking about the universe repeating itself. Or knowing that everything will happen a certain way.That is impossible for many reasons. So everyone but rakk is wrong.

Right now I can go eat something. Or not go eat something.
It is totally in my control wether I decide to go into the kicthen or not, therefore. It has not happened, what is about to happen is I am going into the kitchen. BUT it doesn't mean it was always going to happen. I could have not gone into the kicthen. but I didn't. It was my choice.

**logik** · 07-22-2005 10:31 AM

How is there a way of proving that? Fate may know your final decision...? I've thought of this... simple thing i guess, that fate is connected to deja vu... I think thats the only thing that keeps me to believe in fate.

**bradybaker** · 07-22-2005 10:01 PM

Originally posted by NirvanaStarseed+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NirvanaStarseed)</div>

Flawed thinking about the universe repeating itself. Or knowing that everything will happen a certain way.That is impossible for many reasons.[/b]

Care to share some of these reasons?

<!--QuoteBegin-NirvanaStarseed
Right now I can go eat something. Or not go eat something.
It is totally in my control wether I decide to go into the kicthen or not, therefore. It has not happened, what is about to happen is I am going into the kitchen. BUT it doesn't mean it was always going to happen. I could have not gone into the kicthen. but I didn't. It was my choice.

The appearance of free will is very difficult to get past. It obviously seems like like you have a choice. But upon closer examination, you will realize that you don't.

Given the exact same choice 100 times, under the exact same set of circumstances, you will make the same decision 100 times. Therefore, each decision is nothing more than a product of various factors that you have no control over.

You and everything that comprises you is nothing more than a very complex chemical reaction process. All chemical reactions, even very complex ones, play out according to fundamental physical laws. These laws do not bend, break, shift or slide...they are absolute.

To assume that some magical part of your consciousness can somehow alter and direct these processes is not only absurd, but fairly conceited.

**AirRick101** · 07-23-2005 06:10 AM

Yeah, once in English Philosophy class, a mate said that "well, if we go back in time to try to change what happened, we'd only do the exact same thing because of the same knowledge, resources, and conditions we had at that time."

I can double BradyBaker on this, although once he might have misunderstood me on the topic of free will. In a personal, I say, practical sense, free will is a function we all exercise, and whether it be an illusion or not, is still to our power. Choice works to our own minds, even though the future result are merely imaginary scenarios. But when it comes to a fork in the road, we can't examine our present situation from the past or future....we can only at best estimate. lol, I bet bradybaker has little problem accepting the past....

Anyway, the Matrix's is one the more excellent references on choice. There's differing opinions within the movie, obviously the protaganist fighting fort their reality of choice. I like the one Morpheus line when he said "What happened happened, and couldn't have happened any other way...." Only upon reflection is it realized as true.

**Placebo** · 07-23-2005 09:37 AM

Originally posted by bradybaker
Given the exact same choice 100 times, under the exact same set of circumstances, you will make the same decision 100 times. Therefore, each decision is nothing more than a product of various factors that you have no control over.

You could take this a step further: Before attacking another person's choices, realise that had you lived that person's life, had the resources he did, and gone through the same sh*t, you'd have done exactly the same thing

Makes for a lot of understanding in the world, doesn't it?

Anyway, this was a bit off topic, but I thought it was worth a prod.

**Nirvana Starseed** · 07-24-2005 01:38 AM

Some of you people do not have very intelligent reasoning ability.

bradybaker

Given the exact same choice 100 times, under the exact same set of circumstances, you will make the same decision 100 times.[/b]

why?

Therefore, each decision is nothing more than a product of various factors that you have no control over. [/b]

I am able to make a decision. Despite various factors which ultimately have no influence over my decision.

You can make a decision to close your eyes, or not close your eyes. Does this mean you will always close your eyes if faced with that choice. Even in the same situation or circumstance? Ofcourse not.

You can decide to close your eyes. Or you can decide not to close your eyes. That is called a decision. It is actually a key word for what or who you are. Decision.

You are not a robot.

**bradybaker** · 07-25-2005 04:53 AM

You aren't quite grasping the concept here.

I'm saying that there is no such thing as a decision. Only a sum of various factors which you don't and can never understand. One part oxygen, two parts hydrogen equals water every time.

And when I say "the same situation", I don't mean kinda, sorta, mostly the same. I mean EXACTLY the same. As if you could go back in time (without knowledge the decision you already made) and relive the moment.

Even something as trivial as closing your eyes is preordained. As is your complete denial of that concept.

**InTheMoment** · 07-25-2005 02:30 PM

Nirvana wrote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

You can make a decision to close your eyes, or not close your eyes. Does this mean you will always close your eyes if faced with that choice. Even in the same situation or circumstance? Ofcourse not. [/b]

[/b][/quote]

Of course so! If all variables (down to the fixed position of the smallest sub-atomic particle) were the same, you would make the same decision.

You can decide to close your eyes. Or you can decide not to close your eyes. That is called a decision. It is actually a key word for what or who you are. Decision. [/b]

A decision is nothing more than the realization that a choice is going to be made. You may think your decision was not predetermined, but it is entirely impossible to have NOT made that same decision.

Brady wrote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

Even something as trivial as closing your eyes is preordained. As is your complete denial of that concept.[/b]

[/b][/quote]

Exactly.

**Nirvana Starseed** · 07-26-2005 04:41 AM

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:30 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course so! If all variables (down to the fixed position of the smallest sub-atomic particle) were the same, you would make the same decision.

you are forgetting a variable that is designed to allow one to have free choice.
[/quote]

**voidofform** · 07-26-2005 05:45 AM

if free will exists it must come from outside of our concrete reality.

well then there's the theory that the unpredictability of certain quatum processes, provides a way for "input" from another dimension, without breaking the laws of physics.

i'm not sold on the idea though.

**Nirvana Starseed** · 07-26-2005 06:31 AM

It is designed in such a complex and perfect arrangement, and still evolving towards a new and greater relative perfection on yet another scale. Even if you do not understand how it is working, it makes no difference it still works. The result of evolution so far has given us a certain amount of free choice which is expanding all the time.

The mistake is in underestimating these 'vaules' or the 'program' which may or may not result in your beliefs about free choice, because of what you think is possible is of limited vision.

Never say, "this or that cannot be, because of your current understanding of the rules of 'science' ses it cannot.

**InTheMoment** · 07-26-2005 08:02 PM

you are forgetting a variable that is designed to allow one to have free choice. [/b]

\"designed\" variable? Are you introducing a position of Intelligent Design to explain away Determinism?

It is designed in such a complex and perfect arrangement, and still evolving towards a new and greater relative perfection on yet another scale. Even if you do not understand how it is working, it makes no difference it still works. The result of evolution so far has given us a certain amount of free choice which is expanding all the time. [/b]

And this is based on what source of knowledge? Please provide some links or at least some source data that supports such a theory.

Never say, \"this or that cannot be, because these rules of 'science' ses it cannot.[/b]

Never challenge the rules of science without the proper empirical data to back up such claims.

**Universal Mind** · 07-26-2005 09:57 PM

Free will would involve uncaused events, which are impossible.

Choices are made by the laws of physics.

**Rakkantekimusouka** · 07-27-2005 09:25 PM

Originally posted by Universal Mind
Free will would involve uncaused events, which are impossible.

Choices are made by the laws of physics.

There is no 'free will'. I've been saying that for years now.

**Nirvana Starseed** · 07-28-2005 09:26 AM

If there is no free choice, you cannot blame me for punching you in the face.

Anyway, it would be unwise of me, to continue this conversation. When most of you that have replied are only interested in arguing or making the other person wrong.

**InTheMoment** · 07-28-2005 02:54 PM

Anyway, it would be unwise of me, to continue this conversation. When most of you that have replied are only interested in arguing or making the other person wrong.[/b]

It's called debating...and when someone runs out of sensible input to support their argument, they usually cop out. At least we know where you stand...thanks for sharing.

~

**Universal Mind** · 07-29-2005 05:17 AM

Originally posted by NirvanaStarseed
If there is no free choice, you cannot blame me for punching you in the face.

Anyway, it would be unwise of me, to continue this conversation. When most of you that have replied are only interested in arguing or making the other person wrong.

What exactly is your deal? Until I just read the personal insults you left for me in the capital punishment thread, I had no problem with you whatsoever. Why are you being so hateful? I won't dislike you just for disagreeing with me. Do you really expect there to not be debate in a philosphy forum?

There is no free will. If you punch me in the face, it was bound to happen that way, based on the laws of physics. However, I too am a human organism, and having human nature, I will inevitably be extremely pissed at you for hitting me in the face and do something about it. What I do will be based on the laws of physics. Not blaming you would set a bad precedent, and my neurophysics would have me acting otherwise.

**KING** · 07-29-2005 11:54 PM

Originally posted by Universal Mind

What exactly is your deal? Until I just read the personal insults you left for me in the capital punishment thread, I had no problem with you whatsoever. Why are you being so hateful? I won't dislike you just for disagreeing with me. Do you really expect there to not be debate in a philosphy forum?

There is no free will. If you punch me in the face, it was bound to happen that way, based on the laws of physics. However, I too am a human organism, and having human nature, I will inevitably be extremely pissed at you for hitting me in the face and do something about it. What I do will be based on the laws of physics. Not blaming you would set a bad precedent, and my neurophysics would have me acting otherwise.

lmao, you can divide people into two groups: those who belive in 'free will' and those who realise its an illusion stemming from the sheer amount of information, knowledge and experience that goes into creating each human beings choice as they go through life.

The mind is extreeeeeeeemly complex, thinking about it, each decision and all the neurons etc are all affected by the events that went before it but i was still suprised to find 2 of my physics class friends belived in 'free will'

**Rakkantekimusouka** · 07-30-2005 03:30 AM

Originally posted by KING
lmao, you can divide people into two groups: those who belive in 'free will' and those who realise its an illusion stemming from the sheer amount of information, knowledge and experience that goes into creating each human beings choice as they go through life.

The mind is extreeeeeeeemly complex, thinking about it, each decision and all the neurons etc are all affected by the events that went before it but i was still suprised to find 2 of my physics class friends belived in 'free will'

I really, REALLY like you.

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