Thread: The Flawed Nature and Limits of Lucid Dreaming

Then you say that your Higher Mind will not be mad if your tiny little ego mind decides to usurp a total tyranny over the Dream Realm and interrupt all Communication between the Minds, by asserting some Total Control which would effectively act like a Wall shutting off any Deep Meaning which you as much as admit does indeed take place in SOME Dreams.[/b]

Leo, no offense at all but I think you're jumping into a well, boastfully content about your floatation device, when you don't even know if the water is deep enough to coushion your fall.

I don't think it is right to chastise anyone for the way they plan to direct their dreams. That would be like telling someone what profession to get into, or running around screaming that your sensei was better than everyone elses. I do agree that some, if not many, non-lucid dreams Should Probably be left to flicker about as they normally would. I do not doubt that their random, yet almost gracefully intertwined subject matters have some sort of possible association, but to assume that control over a number of these dreams, even taking the development of control as a sort of quest, is somehow insulting to the Higher Mind is to assume, dogmatically as said, a lot.
How do you know that, while you're perusing consciously through a singular web of the thoughts that are making your immediate dream surroundings, tens of hundreds of dishelved, naturally sporadic, Completely Subconscious and 'unwitnessed' (as infinte normal dreams are around the globe every night) dreams aren't taking place somewhere out of the intruding pathway of your lucid consciousness? Would not A Complete and "Tyrannical" seizure of all dream content for lucid control purposes consist of Dream Journal entries of like 20 lucid dreams a night? I'd love to meet someone with that kind of track record. Are you so sure (taking in mind how many people don't even Realize they are having numerous dreams a night) that your being lucid enough to control a section of your surrounding 'innerspace' is actually interfering with your ability to sift through sub- to unconscious thought?
If so, I'd love to hear why.

You said, yourself, that pre-modern man's dreams were much more apart of their lives. Obviously we are sensitized to believing in things that 'aren't real' in today's society. But to say that someone's experiments in control are somehow 'wrong' is to say you know that no one did that in the past. It would be to say that your understanding of pre-modern psyche is so great, you can tell what happens when someone actually takes control of as many dreams as they can remember (excusing the fact that they are more likely Not taking control of All dreams, which would severely hinder the 'doing damage' arguement). I think that is a little presumptuous, or whatever the hell that word is.

Okay.

Yes, but we should be more precise, shouldn't we. What you mean to say is NOT EVERY dream has deep meaning. After all, when we take ALL Dreams together, then certainly they ALL inclusively DO indeed have deep meaning. Your point, I suppose, is that there are quite a few dreams among ALL of the Dreams that do not really have much in the way of deep meaning.

But some do. You admit that.

Then you say that your Higher Mind will not be mad if your tiny little ego mind decides to usurp a total tyranny over the Dream Realm and interrupt all Communication between the Minds, by asserting some Total Control which would effectively act like a Wall shutting off any Deep Meaning which you as much as admit does indeed take place in SOME Dreams.

It is not a very consistent position.

And not one that bears much actual scrutiny. Stay with this Page for awhile and pay attention to the Horror Stories that eventually come from some of these people -- particularly those who now claim to be the most skilled in Lucid Dreaming, and you will see that the Higher Mind does indeed eventually assert a rather Vindictive Attitude in reaction to this widescale sabotage of the ordinary dream mechanisms.

Or watch your own dream progress. You will see what I am talking about, whatever you may think now, with your first sweet and innocent assumptions.[/b]

Don't put words in my mouth.

Anyway, I have typed several responses to this and none seemed to correctly portray my disapproval of your theory very eloquently, so I will simply state that I do not agree with you and leave it at that.

I agree with Oneironaut.

I don't have time to go into a bunch of detail like he did (he pretty much hit the nail on the head), but just know Leo, that your beliefs are just that, beliefs.

Until my mind forces me to stop manipulating my dream to my content, I have no reason to assume what im doing is morally wrong, or is destroying my "higher mind" as you call it.Because if it were really so wrong what I was doing, my mind would know it, and would force me to stop one way or another.

Originally posted by Leo Volont
Yes, if you can really tell yourself in ten different ways that the World should just Screw Off -- that it is all Illusion, blah blah blah, then, yes, you will have PEACE OF MIND. *Peace of Mind like rich people in gated communities.

...

Peace of Mind is actually pretty selfish, don't you think?

I'm not sure I agree with you Leo. I've looked up Stoicism, I mainly agree with their views, except I don't think everything is divine intervention. I think there may be some pre-planned events that should happen in your life, but they are all subject to change. What you "ask for" partially determines what you get. Ask and receive...

I'll stop here, because I'm not sure your definition of selfish would still apply. If it does, we can go from there.

Remember this! If you say to a mountain to get up and throw yourself into that ocean. And you have no doubt in your heart that what you say will happen. It will be done for you.