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    1. #1
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      The Flawed Nature and Limits of Lucid Dreaming

      In responding to another post, it occurred to me that there is an inherent problem embedded in the very nature of Lucid Dreaming... allow me to quote myself:

      Lucid Dreams may not represent the highest stage of dreaming, contrary as that may seem to all the propaganda put forward by this Page . Lucidity is only necessary if the Primitive Dream Self is seriously out of control -- if your Dream Self's conduct, choices and behavior are so out of synch with that of your waking self, then Lucidity becomes necessary in order to help integrate your Waking Self Persona with your Dream Self's Persona. However, if your Dream Self is relatively evolved and the choices your Dream Self makes are roughly the same choices that your Waking Self would make, then one can hardly see what Lucidity could do but disrupt the texture of what otherwise would be seamless dreams. As wonderful as Lucidity is, it always presents something of an interruption to the Dream flow and progression.

      Also, Lucidity is inherently a betrayal of Dream Content. For the Dreamer to know that he is dreaming, the personal bias of his judgment must lean toward the idea that his Dream is no longer Real. I found even myself doing it -- saying to myself that the scenary, the hills, the bottlecaps laying on the ground "look so REAL", with the underlying supposition being that THEY ARE JUST A DREAM -- that, in fact, NONE OF IT IS REAL . In this way Dreamers who are Lucid tend to fundamentally dismiss the importance of their Dreams by negating their REALITY. We need to ask ourselves how this could really be so helpful. In a Non-Lucid Vivid Dream, the dreamer has the psychological advantage of supposing his Dream Reality is an actuality, that it is indeed Real, or at least seems so to the Dreamer. But this solidity explodes with the onset of Lucidity. I cannot see how this must automatically make anything better, when, in fact, it argues for a lesser dream. So I wonder that in our Dream Journals we so instantly rank a Lucid Dream over a Vivid Dream, when perhaps the scoring should be the other way around.

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      Interesting ideas. Is dream therapy a poorly developed theory?

      I have always known that dreams were a window or doorway into the subconcious or Higher MInd as you have called it. To me it is completely logical to use this as a tool and I am often puzzled that everybody doesn't use deaming this way. In the '60's when I was very young, I would sometimes tell adults about the dreams that I had but it was clear they did not understand what I was trying to tell them or ask for in the way of knowledge. Then in the '90's after I read the books by Steven LaBerge, I experimented with Lucid Dreaming with the goal of solving some of my deeper emotional/psychological problems. Would the real problem lay in the ability to make good interpretations?
      Martha
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      Originally posted by MarthaM
      Interesting ideas. Is dream therapy a poorly developed theory?

      I have always known that dreams were a window or doorway into the subconcious or Higher MInd as you have called it. To me it is completely logical to use this as a tool and I am often puzzled that everybody doesn't use deaming this way. In the '60's when I was very young, I would sometimes tell adults about the dreams that I had but it was clear they did not understand what I was trying to tell them or ask for in the way of knowledge. Then in the '90's after I read the books by Steven LaBerge, I experimented with Lucid Dreaming with the goal of solving some of my deeper emotional/psychological problems. Would the real problem lay in the ability to make good interpretations?
      Oh, then you must be ... 'mature' enough to remember Dr. Ann Faraday's wonderful book, "Dream Power".

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      We probally do that because we're amazed at the mind's power to take all of our memories, process them, and place us in a created world. Lucid dreams rank higher, because you naturally have more control, and you can fully enjoy the dream-world without worrying about real-life worries.
      DOH!

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      Oh, then you must be ... 'mature' enough to remember Dr. Ann Faraday's wonderful book, \"Dream Power\". [/b]
      No, the reference is not familiar. It looks more like something my parents would have read. I have read Jung's \"Man and His Symbols\" and have a small familiarity with \"Synchronicity\" and William James, Freud, Erik Erickson and Maslow. (My '08's college courses.) I have read some of Joseph Campbell's books but never really 'got into' his teachings. CS Lewis and Tolkien were influential but that is more of a symbolism in fiction type of thing. Other side of the same coin?

      For the Dreamer to know that he is dreaming, the personal bias of his judgment must lean toward the idea that his Dream is no longer Real.[/b]
      So, when I incubate a particular direction or purpose for a dream and then become lucid in the dream, is it all for naught? Or is intent the greater influence?
      Martha
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      Change your life with your very next thought.
      -Dr Wayne Dyer

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      Originally posted by MarthaM
      Oh, then you must be ... 'mature' enough to remember Dr. Ann Faraday's wonderful book, \"Dream Power\".
      No, the reference is not familiar. It looks more like something my parents would have read. I have read Jung's \"Man and His Symbols\" and have a small familiarity with \"Synchronicity\" and William James, Freud, Erik Erickson and Maslow. (My '08's college courses.) I have read some of Joseph Campbell's books but never really 'got into' his teachings. CS Lewis and Tolkien were influential but that is more of a symbolism in fiction type of thing. Other side of the same coin?

      For the Dreamer to know that he is dreaming, the personal bias of his judgment must lean toward the idea that his Dream is no longer Real.[/b]
      So, when I incubate a particular direction or purpose for a dream and then become lucid in the dream, is it all for naught? Or is intent the greater influence?[/b]
      Well, don't dismiss Dr. Faraday simply because she was able to find a publisher who could give her a wide distribution. Remember, those were the days of Carlos Castenada who at first seemed like just an Anthropologist who became a source for best selling books. It really opened the door for other Scholastics into the popular market.

      Joseph Campbell... he arrived some 40 years too late to be the NAZI that he was meant to have been. He's transferred the propaganda for the Teutonic Super Race to a new formula for a Western Super Race. All the philosophy of World Dominance by the forces of Secular and Anti-Religious Barbarism remains just as it would have been from one of Hitler's speeches. So short is our cultural memory that nobody seems to recognize the parallels. I suppose it just means that most people think it is okay to be a NAZI as long as we are the ones who get to be the Master Race. Much like Israel who so laments when they are persecuted themselves, but then think it is just wonderful and totally within their rights to persecute others. What they seem to have carried away from their experience is no profound sense of Social Justice, but only that they don't like being the victim. As long as they get to wear the boot, kicking those who are down is just fine.

      And, about Lucid Dreaming... to mitigate the harm that might be done, one need simply remind oneself that Dreams are Real. DON'T think to yourself "oh, how realistic it all looks although it is just a dream". Train yourself not to dismiss the importance of dreams by dismissing their substantial reality. If you can continue to respect the Subjective Reality of your Dreams, then there will less of a danger of offending the Higher Mind.

      I really suppose much of the problem people have with their Lucid Dreams is because they have offended their Higher Mind by just such judgments within their Lucid Dreams, that none of it was real. So, in order to prove its Reality, the Higher Mind decides to build up something of a Stone Wall to further Lucid Dreaming.

      Its all a matter of respecting the Dreams.

    7. #7
      Member Jrels's Avatar
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      I do respect the dreams. But when one cannot help but become lucid, what is one to do? Ignore the awareness? Granted, the dream is much richer with the epic wanderings of the sub-conscious, but are we truely not wanted to become aware?

      The coexistence of the waking and dreaming seems to serve some sort of purpose. A balancing act of our countenance. It is made clear when we gaze upon one of us who has not slept for days. After all, it is a time for rejuvenating our physical state of being.

      I have had eight beers. No more, no less.

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      Ev
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      Re: The Flawed Nature and Limits of Lucid Dreaming

      Originally posted by Leo Volont
      Lucid Dreams may not represent the highest stage of dreaming, contrary as that may seem to all the propaganda put forward by this Page .
      Lucid dreaming is indeed not the perfect/highest stage of dreaming. Neither it is the ultimate altered state of consciousness. We definitely agree on this point.

      Just allow me to point out that lucid dreaming is:
      1)it is legal
      2)as opposed to other methods (such as channeling, non dreaming astral projection or non dreaming OBEs) it been proven scientifically with working methods easily available
      3)It is quite easy to attain
      4)it is possible even if you are doubtful.

      AFAIK lucid dreaming is the most potent \"natural\" state of mind that is at the same time easy to attain. If you know of any other altered state of consciousness that has similar properties and can be learned just as easily... tell me.... cause I cant think of anything \"natural\"


      Lucidity is only necessary if the Primitive Dream Self is seriously out of control -- if your Dream Self's conduct, choices and behavior are so out of synch with that of your waking self, then Lucidity becomes necessary in order to help integrate your Waking Self Persona with your Dream Self's Persona. However, if your Dream Self is relatively evolved and the choices your Dream Self makes are roughly the same choices that your Waking Self would make, then one can hardly see what Lucidity could do but disrupt the texture of what otherwise would be seamless dreams. As wonderful as Lucidity is, it always presents something of an interruption to the Dream flow and progression. [/b]
      IMO, integrating dream and waking self will make one's dreams 100% lucid because waking self will be in control of one's actions.... In real life you cant do anything, your body will not move unless you will it to... Upon integration, same thing will happen in one's dreams.

      I dont see any problem with the dream self being out of sync with the waking self... Do you think that the waking self is somehow superior to the dream self? Why shouldnt you follow the dream self model of behavior? Especially if you think that the dreams are coming from the \"higher self\"... How can one's \"higher self\" be wrong? Why should it ever be corrected by lucidity?


      Also, Lucidity is inherently a betrayal of Dream Content. For the Dreamer to know that he is dreaming, the personal bias of his judgment must lean toward the idea that his Dream is no longer Real. I found even myself doing it -- saying to myself that the scenary, the hills, the bottlecaps laying on the ground \"look so REAL\", with the underlying supposition being that THEY ARE JUST A DREAM -- that, in fact, NONE OF IT IS REAL . [/b]

      It seems to me that you are grossly oversimplifying this issue. Sure, *few* people will think that the dream world is 100% not real and is just an illusion. However, many more will have at least *some* kind of theory on what that world is (Eg plane, mystic, parallel reality, other dimension, etc etc etc). With this in mind, one's actions will be at least slightly affected by fear / thought of consequences. As one explores the dreamworld and gathers more information and experience, one's opinion may swing one way or another.

      Now the importance of dream content is a valid question. I see 2 quite radical approaches to it:

      1) We are not supposed to remember our dreams in first place. They are just a physiological process in our brains. Maybe because of the structure of our brains, it is somehow exposed, making people aware of it. People should just mind their \"real\", primary material plane business and stop messing with their minds... Interference, remembering or even worse lucidity seriously messes up with one's sanity and takes away people's attention from important matters at hand.

      2)Dreaming is a key to other dimensions or one's mind. In either case it's a valuable tool humans should explore/exploit. There's a widespread attitude of neglecting and a serious lack of education on the subject. As a result, *very few* people develop abilities that (at least in theory) all people may have.

      As you can see the approaches are radical indeed and I'm fairly sure your opinion falls somewhere in between them.

      Personally I used to meditate upon something like \"dreams are just my other life\". This was a part of the attempt to make my awareness persist for 24hrs a day. I was convinced that dreams are *real*. Surprisingly enough, I got a surge of lucid dreams, with no flactuation in vividness or control. The only thing that changed was the onset, it shifted towards more lifelike places...

      In this way Dreamers who are Lucid tend to fundamentally dismiss the importance of their Dreams by negating their REALITY. We need to ask ourselves how this could really be so helpful. In a Non-Lucid Vivid Dream, the dreamer has the psychological advantage of supposing his Dream Reality is an actuality, that it is indeed Real, or at least seems so to the Dreamer. But this solidity explodes with the onset of Lucidity. [/b]
      And, about Lucid Dreaming... to mitigate the harm that might be done, one need simply remind oneself that Dreams are Real[/b]
      Following your train of thought, dreams are *real*. Now, let's explore this: if the dreamworld is real, will it make any difference if one is thinking it is real or not?


      You are saying that an entity, called \"higher mind\" is in control of the dream content one perceives. Now, let's think of a hypothetical situation where a dreamer totatally ignores the dream content and does whatever he wants. He still has normal dreams tho. If this entity, the \"higher mind\" wants to continue to educate the dreamer, why wouldnt it send a messenger, a sign, a note, *any* sign in a normal dream? Following your idea of the \"higher mind\" controlling dream content, it can easily control what DCs you see and what they say... I think we arrived at a point where you are trying to prove the existence of certain kind of a \"dream god\" with his divine plan....

      You may repeat your earlier statements that the \"higher mind\" may totally eliminate dreamer's ability to dream...without any reasonable warning... Well, that doesnt sound too caring or benevolent to me :/


      . If you can continue to respect the Subjective Reality of your Dreams, then there will less of a danger of offending the Higher Mind.

      I really suppose much of the problem people have with their Lucid Dreams is because they have offended their Higher Mind by just such judgments within their Lucid Dreams, that none of it was real. So, in order to prove its Reality, the Higher Mind decides to build up something of a Stone Wall to further Lucid Dreaming. [/b]
      Once again, why wouldnt higher mind communicate with a dreamer? If it tries to educate and enlighten the dreamer, it would definitely be interested in the dreamer better understanding the lesson... If there is a lesson to be learned, the higher mind would try it's best to establish a contact with a dreamer.....
      I can see 3 possible conclusions:

      1) there's no lesson to be learned
      2) "higher mind" is not a benevolent entity that you think it is
      3) higher mind wants a person to make the first move

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      Originally posted by Jrels
      I do respect the dreams. But when one cannot help but become lucid, what is one to do? Ignore the awareness? Granted, the dream is much richer with the epic wanderings of the sub-conscious, but are we truely not wanted to become aware?

      The coexistence of the waking and dreaming seems to serve some sort of purpose. A balancing act of our countenance. It is made clear when we gaze upon one of us who has not slept for days. After all, it is a time for rejuvenating our physical state of being.

      I have had eight beers. No more, no less.
      Yes, we are meant to become aware. Lucidity IS a gift. But remember for whom the Gift was intended. The Primitive Man, the guy we were only a bried 3 o 4 thousands of years ago, would not have made the same destructive distinction that we would make -- that because something is a Dream, therefore it is not real. To the Pre-Modern, Dreams were as real as the waking consciousness. Indeed, to the pre-Modern Mind, much of the Magic that we find in our Dreaming was assumed to also exist in our Reality. It seems to be the Curse of Modernity that our Reality is stripped to the bone of Mystical and Magical Content by the dictates of a stark Materialism, and the subjective Reality of Dreams is dismissed as entirely imaginary... even by many of the Dreamers on this very page.

      If one can re-assume a Spiritual Awareness within Dreams (and within Reality, which would not hurt) then negative assumptions stop necessarily flowing from the realization of Lucidity. When one becomes Lucid, one should say to one's Self, "Yes, it all looks so real. Because it IS real".

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      Re: The Flawed Nature and Limits of Lucid Dreaming

      Originally posted by Ev


      I dont see any problem with the dream self being out of sync with the waking self... Do you think that the waking self is somehow superior to the dream self? Why shouldnt you follow the dream self model of behavior? Especially if you think that the dreams are coming from the \"higher self\"... How can one's \"higher self\" be wrong? Why should it ever be corrected by lucidity?

      Yes, which is why I speak of Integration of the Waking Conscious Self with the Primitive Dream Self... combining the Moral Social Virtues of the Waking Self with the spritely magic and undaunted courage of the evolved Dreamer.

      Now, the Higher Self stands apart from both of these Entities, a sort of fixture of the Collective Consciousness. You were correct in that I am attempting to make something of a Secular God out of this Higher Self. But the Primitive Dream Self and the Higher Self are not exactly one thing. The Primitive Self has much to learn. The Higher Self presents learning situations and environments, but often the Dreaming Self makes the wrong choices. You have heard of Recurrent Dreams... well, dreams recur when the Dreamer fails to make the correct choices, the correct responses to Dream Situations, Dream Tests.

      And about the Higher Self finding it necessary to instruct the Dreamer and even to discipline a Dreamer, by cutting off dreams. yes. I have had Dream Messengers. Those are the Wise Old Man Archetypes, the Angels, the Goddesses and Oracles. They are how the Higher Mind sends its captions and rubrics. But the Conscious Mind has become a powerful thing. Like Lucifer it can suppose itself able to compete with God, and largely can. Against the Power of God, the Conscious Mind has at least the advantage of proximity. As with the Prophet Elijah who found that God is a wee small voice, it can be very easy to suppress the influences of all things Holy.

      I'd answer more completely, but off I must go, to sing in the Choir.

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      Member MarthaM's Avatar
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      In reading the various threads in this forum I feel that part of the issue here may be a generation gap.
      While some of the tasks presented in this forum are interesting they are nevertheless just tasks, an experiment or a test at most. And like students we like to compare those results. Perhaps this is the difference between casual study and professional investigation.
      I know that in my "Know-It-ALL" teens and 20's the quest for dream control could have become my main reason for existing. But in my current 'maturity' I recognize a world of difference between exploring/testing dream control skills and a quest to understand the inner workings of my own nature.
      Look at all of the gaming references as one example. Some individuals see lucid dreaming as a logical extention of their game experiences.
      Martha
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      Change your life with your very next thought.
      -Dr Wayne Dyer

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      Originally posted by MarthaM
      In reading the various threads in this forum I feel that part of the issue here may be a generation gap.
      While some of the tasks presented in this forum are interesting they are nevertheless just tasks, an experiment or a test at most. And like students we like to compare those results. Perhaps this is the difference between casual study and professional investigation.
      I know that in my \"Know-It-ALL\" teens and 20's the quest for dream control could have become my main reason for existing. But in my current 'maturity' I recognize a world of difference between exploring/testing dream control skills and a quest to understand the inner workings of my own nature.
      Look at all of the gaming references as one example. Some individuals see lucid dreaming as a logical extention of their game experiences.
      Oh... yeah.... and in a way their efforts at Dream Control, and their experiments are a way to actually distance themselves from the psychological reality of their Dreaming -- objectivizing the experiences instead of assimulating them at a personal level.

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      Ev
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      Originally posted by MarthaM
      In reading the various threads in this forum I feel that part of the issue here may be a generation gap.
      While some of the tasks presented in this forum are interesting they are nevertheless just tasks, an experiment or a test at most. And like students we like to compare those results. Perhaps this is the difference between casual study and professional investigation.
      I know that in my \"Know-It-ALL\" teens and 20's the quest for dream control could have become my main reason for existing. But in my current 'maturity' I recognize a world of difference between exploring/testing dream control skills and a quest to understand the inner workings of my own nature.
      Look at all of the gaming references as one example. Some individuals see lucid dreaming as a logical extention of their game experiences.

      There are different approaches to this question. I'm also very interested in the inner workings of my mind. The concept of other places outside the "real" world also fascinates me. And the concept of dream control is central in my quest to understand these things. I'm sure there are scores if not hundreds more people on this site who are interested in the same thing.

      An analogy might help: think of a child who's playing in some playground. This child might be building sand castles, creating plays using toys, breaking stuff... By doing these things the child is learning about the surrounding world, conscious or not.

      Just like that child lucid dreamers are trying to learn about the dreamworld by "playing" with its content. For some people the act of "playing" will become a goal, while others will advance further. This website has a huge portion of it's resources dedicated to achieving lucidity and learning control.
      I'd been here for quite a long time and I saw the change of attitude from somewhat occultish/mystic (that's how I felt in the beginning) to the more neutral and scientific. As of now the website is trying to increase people's awareness of lucid dreaming. To succeed in this difficult task, the site is trying to be as unbiased as possible.

      Now, why do I think one should learn dream control before exploring the deeper mysteries of the mind? The answer is simple: by learning control one familiarizes oneself with the workings of the dreamworld *and* his mind. Knowing that one may quite easily adjust and make his quest much easier.

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      I believe that negating reality within lucid dreams is, in fact, a good thing. In fact, I believe in negating reality not only in lucid dreams, but in real life as well.

      Plato famously stated that all bodily senses are potentially illusions, and truth can only be found within the mind. The fact is, while we have instinctual faith in the reality of our perceptions, we have no justification for this faith.

      A year ago, while in philosophy class, I had a discussion with my teacher where he confessed to me that he could never truly believe any theory that supposes the world to be "unreal." It's not so much the corollaries of such a theory that shocked him, but simply that it's difficult to fathom that all of what happens every day could possibly be an illusion. He appeared surprised when I told him I could accept such a theory, but it makes sense. The vast majority of the time we're asleep, we can't tell that our mind is working differently from normal, and make up excuses to cover any "mistakes" our mind makes (e.g., things not working, time flowing in strange ways).

      To those who have never had a lucid dream, it appears that all perception is unified and all is real. A lucid dream could be seen as our brain "slipping up" in its effort to present a single unified reality. What we see in a lucid dream is, on the basic perceptual level, as real as anything we'd experience throughout the day, yet we know that it's not. These slip ups allow us a window, however tiny it may be, into the complexity and beauty of our minds' inner workings.

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      when becoming lucid you don't necessarily have to throw everything away as not being "real". though it might be subconciously happening, when lucidity strikes, you should be able to label everything as a dream, not as a fake. if this is done then you can still take the dream as it comes to you, rather than molding it your own way.

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      I think the pros and cons of Lucid Dreaming have already been weighed out as much as possible. What you seem to be doing, Leo, is trying to delineate your synthesizing of psuedo-spiritual/rational principles with the dream scene itself. Although I cannot say my intuition says you are far from it either. Dreaming is indeed flawed (if compared to consciousness), the fact that it has content makes that a given. It is just as flawed as real life, but is often more aplealing because it's rare for humans in general.

      The big reason why lucid dreaming is seen as the highest in society is because it feeds our desires the most. *and plus, most people don't know anything beyond even the fact that they dream every night* The scenery behind it, the consciousness or "emptiness" does not trigger the interest of many humans, who are materialistic, and who should be because of our industrialized technology. But still, LD'ing is a great catalyst to get people interested in dreams alone. After finding out about lucid dreaming, it wasn't just that I was concerened with. I was indeed interested in what an independent dreaming mind would give me, and how I would interact. I'm not to be merely a marionette or a trashcan slave for the dream's content. Our dreams are molded by our everyday experience, and they might as well be under our control, because we own them to a large extent.

      It's only a betrayal to lucid dream if you believe in the given concept that nonlucidity is being rightly submissive to some sort of dogmatic and authoritative statement that our dreams are not meant to be touched. Our ability to interact is just as sacred as the universe around us is. And so is our ability to experiment. No matter how hard we act, it does not make the universe deviate its flow with life, because it is already agreed that it is nothing we can interfere with.

      I know a lucid dreamer who prizes many vivid dreams over lucid dreams, perhaps because he feels he has something to learn that way. But I cannot rank one of the another. This is why a lot of revolutions fail, they commit to their extreme too far that it only makes unbalance occur again. But then again, lucid dreams are usually harder to achieve than non-lucid, in exception to natural Lucid Dreamers (whom I'm surprised do not find their ability amazing or appreciate it most of the time)
      naturals are what we call people who did all the right things accidentally

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      Originally posted by Simonster
      I believe that negating reality within lucid dreams is, in fact, a good thing. In fact, I believe in negating reality not only in lucid dreams, but in real life as well.

      Plato famously stated that all bodily senses are potentially illusions, and truth can only be found within the mind. The fact is, while we have instinctual faith in the reality of our perceptions, we have no justification for this faith.

      A year ago, while in philosophy class, I had a discussion with my teacher where he confessed to me that he could never truly believe any theory that supposes the world to be \"unreal.\" It's not so much the corollaries of such a theory that shocked him, but simply that it's difficult to fathom that all of what happens every day could possibly be an illusion. He appeared surprised when I told him I could accept such a theory, but it makes sense. The vast majority of the time we're asleep, we can't tell that our mind is working differently from normal, and make up excuses to cover any \"mistakes\" our mind makes (e.g., things not working, time flowing in strange ways).

      To those who have never had a lucid dream, it appears that all perception is unified and all is real. A lucid dream could be seen as our brain \"slipping up\" in its effort to present a single unified reality. What we see in a lucid dream is, on the basic perceptual level, as real as anything we'd experience throughout the day, yet we know that it's not. These slip ups allow us a window, however tiny it may be, into the complexity and beauty of our minds' inner workings.
      Plato, Buddha, Taoism -- much of that Ancient Crap is simple Stoicism, and the recent several thousand years have evaluated it and found to to be morally bankrupt.

      Just think about it. What are the Moral and Spiritual Goals of Stoicism... and Platonism... and pre-Mayayana Buddism, etc. The Big Goal was how to simply not be bothered with the World. All that philosophical agonizing resolved into one great big Screw It All.

      Yes, if you can really tell yourself in ten different ways that the World should just Screw Off -- that it is all Illusion, blah blah blah, then, yes, you will have PEACE OF MIND. Peace of Mind like rich people in gated communities.

      But the Christianity of the Saints has rejected that Crap. Mayayana Buddhism has rejected that Crap. Bhakti Hindusim since the 16th Century has rejected that Crap. Zorastrianism rejected that Crap over 2500 years ago.

      Peace of Mind is actually pretty selfish, don't you think?

      Join a Country Club and screw everybody else. No exactly the greatest Moral Ideal, don't you think.

      Also, you need to remember that Socrates was judged by a Jury of his peers. You know, alot of people thought he was a real asshole, and perhaps you should ask yourself why.

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      Originally posted by AirRick101
      I know a lucid dreamer who prizes many vivid dreams over lucid dreams, perhaps because he feels he has something to learn that way. But I cannot rank one of the another. This is why a lot of revolutions fail, they commit to their extreme too far that it only makes unbalance occur again. But then again, lucid dreams are usually harder to achieve than non-lucid, in exception to natural Lucid Dreamers (whom I'm surprised do not find their ability amazing or appreciate it most of the time)
      I would question whether Lucid Dreams are not a great deal more numerous than Vivid Dreams. How often do we hear of abortive or dull Lucid Dreams -- wakeups and false-awakenings. Every one of these people who write in with Control Problems are really complaining about lackluster Lucid Dreams.

      Well, nobody is complaining about their Vivid Dreams. Also, nobody is writing in bragging about having 2 or 3 vivid dreams a week.

      And, again, I have no problem with people responding to the Content in their Dreams. Indeed, the Higher Mind is ever encouraging us to respond to Content. My only problem is when the Dreamer makes every effort to destroy all Dream Content, effectively cutting off the Individuals access to the Subconscious and Collective Conscious Minds.

      Oh, I liked your thought regarding the extremes of Revolution. I often think that I will be remembered in the Extreme, and that if I were to happen upon my own Legacy in some future Life, that I probably will find myself arguing against it.

    19. #19
      Dreamah in ReHaB AirRick101's Avatar
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      Originally posted by Leo Volont


      Well, nobody is complaining about their Vivid Dreams. Also, nobody is writing in bragging about having 2 or 3 vivid dreams a week.

      And, again, I have no problem with people responding to the Content in their Dreams. Indeed, the Higher Mind is ever encouraging us to respond to Content. My only problem is when the Dreamer makes every effort to destroy all Dream Content, effectively cutting off the Individuals access to the Subconscious and Collective Conscious Minds.

      I'm glad I can humour you.

      Your statement is encouraging in the sense that if vivid dreams were to be merely prized and praised more, people would feel much more success in the area of dreams (at least, I know I would because my frequency of vivid dreams is 80 percent more likely than lucid dreams) Lucid dreams, I feel, is far too often a waste of time when you try really hard and don't accomplish a goal that was proportionally appropiately of a sacrifice compared to the results. Vivid dreams and recall is blessing enough, and lucidity is only a boost from one's conscious awareness that exponentially increases one's choices in how to respond.
      naturals are what we call people who did all the right things accidentally

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      Ev
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      I would question whether Lucid Dreams are not a great deal more numerous than Vivid Dreams. How often do we hear of abortive or dull Lucid Dreams -- wakeups and false-awakenings. Every one of these people who write in with Control Problems are really complaining about lackluster Lucid Dreams. *

      Well, nobody is complaining about their Vivid Dreams. Also, nobody is writing in bragging about having 2 or 3 vivid dreams a week. [/b]
      Actually vivid dreams are easily achieved. Tons of chemicals influence the vividness of your dreams Melatonin +B6 + 8-10 hours of sleep works for me.

      Personally I would rate *any* lucid dream or even a false awakening or a semisleep awareness over a vivid dream. The reason is simple: if I have even the crappiest LD or a FA, I know I'm on the way to lucidity... Vivid dream is just like a nice movie...

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      [quote]
      Personally I would rate *any* lucid dream or even a false awakening or a semisleep awareness over a vivid dream. The reason is simple: if I have even the crappiest LD or a FA, I know I'm on the way to lucidity... Vivid dream is just like a nice movie...
      I am worried about how people distance themselves from their own dream's content. These dreams are not movies from out of some sleazy town thousands of miles away. These dreams are formulated from out of either the personal subconscious, or from the Super Conscious and Collective Conscious Mind. They mean something. They were tailor designed especially for you.

      And yet people distance themselves from it. They detach. They isolate from their own minds.

      Indeed, people are so afraid of what is in their own heads that they gravitate toward Lucid Dreaming, toward CONTROL, as a surefire means of cutting off any message, any meaning.

      They think Vivid Dreams are as empty as movies, but then they want to turn their Dreams into Video Games. And that is supposed to be so much better.

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      What if I don't believe that all dreams have some deep meaing to them?

      Also, I'm pretty sure that my mind isn't going to get too mad at my mind for wanting to control what happens.
      Cheis. Dailo.
      It's tough to bring someone back that never really lived.

    23. #23
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      Originally posted by Leo Volont
      Plato, Buddha, Taoism -- much of that Ancient Crap is simple Stoicism, and the recent several thousand years have evaluated it and found to to be morally bankrupt.

      Just think about it. *What are the Moral and Spiritual Goals of Stoicism... and Platonism... and pre-Mayayana Buddism, etc. *The Big Goal was how to simply not be bothered with the World. *All that philosophical agonizing resolved into one great big Screw It All. *

      Yes, if you can really tell yourself in ten different ways that the World should just Screw Off -- that it is all Illusion, blah blah blah, then, yes, you will have PEACE OF MIND. *Peace of Mind like rich people in gated communities.

      ...

      Peace of Mind is actually pretty selfish, don't you think?

      Join a Country Club and screw everybody else. *No exactly the greatest Moral Ideal, don't you think.
      No offense Leo but I think you gravely misunderstand both Buddhism and Daoism.
      Insanity is the new avant-garde.

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      Originally posted by Awhislyle
      What if I don't believe that all dreams have some deep meaing to them?

      Also, I'm pretty sure that my mind isn't going to get too mad at my mind for wanting to control what happens.
      Okay.

      Yes, but we should be more precise, shouldn't we. What you mean to say is NOT EVERY dream has deep meaning. After all, when we take ALL Dreams together, then certainly they ALL inclusively DO indeed have deep meaning. Your point, I suppose, is that there are quite a few dreams among ALL of the Dreams that do not really have much in the way of deep meaning.

      But some do. You admit that.

      Then you say that your Higher Mind will not be mad if your tiny little ego mind decides to usurp a total tyranny over the Dream Realm and interrupt all Communication between the Minds, by asserting some Total Control which would effectively act like a Wall shutting off any Deep Meaning which you as much as admit does indeed take place in SOME Dreams.

      It is not a very consistent position.

      And not one that bears much actual scrutiny. Stay with this Page for awhile and pay attention to the Horror Stories that eventually come from some of these people -- particularly those who now claim to be the most skilled in Lucid Dreaming, and you will see that the Higher Mind does indeed eventually assert a rather Vindictive Attitude in reaction to this widescale sabotage of the ordinary dream mechanisms.

      Or watch your own dream progress. You will see what I am talking about, whatever you may think now, with your first sweet and innocent assumptions.

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      Originally posted by dream-scape


      No offense Leo but I think you gravely misunderstand both Buddhism and Daoism.
      Yes, you are right, toss away all historical context, and then repaint up Buddhism and Daoism with the Revisionary Brush and then it appears that Old Leo doesn't know a single thing about what he is talking about.

      It doesn't seem the least bit odd, that I can take a thorough and textured look at these things, and then find that people with softly and sentimentally focussed views of it complain that they see it all quite differently. But it is always because I must be the one who is wrong.

      Well, then please account for the demise of both Original Buddhism in the face of the Mahayana Traditions and for the suppression of Taoism by every person in the last hundred generations who has been either an Intellectual or a Spiritualist. It is because the basic Stoicism of both of the Schools has grown dated and both Philosophically and Religiously obsolete.

      But since that doesn't agree with your pretty revisionist view -- your quaint little pictureques model Chinese Villiage way of looking at these things, then it must be I who am wrong.

      Yes, I guess the way it works is that Babies begin life knowing everything perfectly correctly and then as they get older they forget everything that was Right True and Good and replace it all with confusion and error. Thus Old Men are always Wrong, and young people, still fresh in their Innate Wisdom are always right. Thus your sweet and fresh view of these failed Religions ( a failure you cannot account for ) is correct, and my view, forget that it explains these problems, must be wrong.

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