Free will or fate?

[Lowercase Society]

This is what i see of free will and fate, i will put it in simple terms, so i can easily explain it, and everyone can easily understand. I believe in both fate and free will, our free will can determine the OUTCOME of our fate, and our everyday descisions determine our fate, but cannot ultimately make up our fate. For an example: We have two roads, at an intersection, FATE does NOT know which one we will choose, but it KNOWS the outcomes of each road. IT knows the end product of each road, but it does not know which one we will choose to walk on. In turn, these 2 roads (or choices), as we walk on one of them, can branch out into a hive of choices(or roads) and we can have many choices to pick from, as fate will know the outcome of each choice, but it will not know which choices we will choose. If that doesn't make sense i will explain it in a better way if i can!

[Howie]

It makes sense to me. But You gave an example of two roads. but in actuality you would have the choice of, Lord only Knows how many choices. Which would lead to millions of different scenarios and outcomes from the choice you made. - Does that mean that there is seveal pasts & futures that exsist at one time? That startsto make the pea sized shape in my brain to smoke.

[will.i.am]

WTF? I must be going crazy! I thought I already had a thread on this! No matter. Lowercase, thats also how I see fate. The only thing is, how do you know that your free will isn't already fated? I personally don't agree with it but its just something to think about.

[Kaniaz]

Good question. And it's one I don't think anybody has a definite, 'correct' anwser to.

[GestaltAlteration]

my belief (being a christian) is God sees every possible outcome of every choice you can make, However He knows you so well he almost already knows which choice you'll pick. This thred could go on forever because there is no and never will be a definite answer.

[will.i.am]

Yes, this thread will not have an end, but thats why I like it. This is something I can always guess about. I'd like to think that there is free will and I am in control. And that my actions will ultimitly lead up to my fate. I can say that my past actions or free will have brought me to this point but I don't know where I'm going. I still have much walking to do on my path of life.

[Lowercase Society]

Originally posted by Howetzer It makes sense to me. But You gave an example of two roads. but in actuality you would have the choice of, Lord only Knows how many choices. Which would lead to millions of different scenarios and outcomes from the choice you made. - Does that mean that there is seveal pasts & futures that exsist at one time? That startsto make the pea sized shape in my brain to smoke. Exaclty, if it were drawn it would be seen like a hive, or a tree, with a million branches, all connected at one point...obviously birth.

[Truthbearer]

What I believe is that the concept of fate can only exist when you are lookng back at someone's life. To refrase this a bit better, one must be in the future to be able to say something was fated. If you think about it, people use it as a way to justify what happens to them; "It was meant to be". I don't think that is really true. Every choice one makes determines posible outcomes one can have, but there are so many variables to take into account, the persons' thoughts and perceptions the biggest of them, that it is imposible to predict that something is going to happen. When something does happen to us, then we say it is fate. It is just a way to feel good about what is going on. So, unless we know how the story is going to end, having a omniscient P.O.V that lets us know what else could have happend, fate is a null concept. It is just how we tell ourselves that it couldn't have happened any other way, reassuring our actions

[Kaniaz]

Like this, except with about 999,999,999,999 more descisions or something?

[KalmaH]

From what I know an universal energy (which some see as God, Allah, ect. I myself call it God) knows what choices we will make. However God gives us free will to choose... he doesn't cnotroll our decisions, he does not tamper with them.

[CT]

Everyday there's millions of choices everybody makes and if someone made a different choice a while ago (if it was something that affected alot of people) the whole world could be different, yeah, sounds logical. But, where does fate fit it? It just 'knows' all of it? You did not define what 'fate' did.

[Lynx]

I dont believe in fate, everyone chooses their 'fate' and makes it for themselves. I think all our actions have consequences, obviously, so our past actions affect the choices we have now in the present, and the choices we make now will affect our future etc. just cause and effect I guess really. I dont believe its fate that, for example, some people are born into poverty and some are millionaires children, I think actions in past lives affect this and future lives too. Prophesies/predictions are just one possible future which could happen if all the conditions stay the same, but they can change as theres so many variables. Its impossible to see every single possible outcome because theyre so many and complicated, I guess 'fate' knows them all. On a really basic level you can 'predict' the light will come on when you turn it on, but its harder to know when it will blow as theres more variables to this outcome. On the other hand real visions/predictions are impossible to work out logically as the 'hive of roads' is so big and long and a lot of well known ones havent come true because of this, but they could have and some did (well, its debatable). Does that make sense?

[GestaltAlteration]

I love the concept and cause and effect.. Think if you were never born (parents made the choice not to marry or somthing) Think of because of that One choice all of the things you've caused and effected that would no longer be in effect. Just ponder on this and thing of how every choice could lead to a million of seperate choices from Choice 2. And If choice 2 was take all of the things that wouldent happen with choice 1. This happends many times a day, Perhaps not to that magnitude but if there really is free will then it happens all the time..

[Aphius]

Originally posted by Lowercase Society+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lowercase Society)</div> This is what i see of free will and fate, i will put it in simple terms, so i can easily explain it, and everyone can easily understand. I believe in both fate and free will, our free will can determine the OUTCOME of our fate, and our everyday descisions determine our fate, but cannot ultimately make up our fate. For an example: We have two roads, at an intersection, FATE does NOT know which one we will choose, but it KNOWS the outcomes of each road. IT knows the end product of each road, but it does not know which one we will choose to walk on. In turn, these 2 roads (or choices), as we walk on one of them, can branch out into a hive of choices(or roads) and we can have many choices to pick from, as fate will know the outcome of each choice, but it will not know which choices we will choose. If that doesn't make sense i will explain it in a better way if i can! [/b] I think it all really comes down to choice. The way our lives pan out is decided by the choices we make and how the choices we make are affected and affect the choices made by others. I've often thought a lot of people use the concept of fate as an excuse when something goes wrong. I do get how our lives could turn out differently if we were to make different choices at certain points in our lives, but i do not really believe in fate. I believe what Truthbarer said about how fate exists when looking back at a persons life, i think that you could call that their fate, but i do not believe that you could say that they were fated to have things turn out a certain way. <!--QuoteBegin-Will.i.am Yes, this thread will not have an end, but thats why I like it. This thread will have an end though. People tend to get bored easily, or forget things. The question however, will be asked again and not have an end.

[Truthbearer]

Here's the thing, you might see things and think how a different choice would have changed everything. Things could have been completely different, but they weren't. That is were fate comes in. It is a reassurance of every choice we make. But then, if that is true, then there wouldn't be a real choice in the big picture. If we look back at someone's life and say that it was meant to be, we are renuncing the fact that he ever had a choice, we are saying that he was just following a script. What does this mean? That fate is a blank concept that really doesn't say anything at all. When we are living our lives in the present it is useless, we never know what directions we can take as an effect of the actions we perform. Thus, there is no fate.

[Alric]

What about fate that overrides choices? You have different roads but no matter which one you take you end up in the same place. If you take the bus, or ride a bike, walk or drive a car to work you will in the end always end up at work just the same, and that would be fate. Thats what I think fate is, no matter how you get there, you still get there. I personlly say we all have free will though. Can decide to skip work all togather if you wanted.

[jacobo]

no such thing as fate. no matter how much you think about it. no matter how much you tell yourself that it's your fate to be or to have something you wont get it unless you work for it. and when you choose to work for it or don't work for it that's free will... by definition. -- as of yet fate can't be proven/disproved but since i think you should be held accountable for your mistakes i'm going to keep saying that your actions aren't predetermined... rather your actions reflect you. i know it sounds crazy but that's what i think. you could make the same argument for superstition. lets assume that there's no such thing as luck or superstition. does you putting your faith into an object give you a mental advantage, maybe some more confidence that you wouldn't have had to begin with? if so, does that make the superstition real?

[Blulanou42]

the infinite probability of god/universe so many paths it is pathless truth: fate is action the outcome of all actions are infinitly effected by the ALL if you think you choose i would say pay attention to the routines of your daily life notice all that you do automatically without question your previous actions already dictating your living fate alignment

[Kaniaz]

Ah! Praise be gods! Let me just fish out a CD... *dives into a pile of red dwarf CD's* Found it! Series 8 - Cassandra. --- * Kryten, Lister, the Cat, Rimmer and Kocheanski walk into the sunk ship's mainframe. It is a semi-smallish room with lots of wires connected to a tank with a head in it. The head speaks: Head: Good evening Arnold. I've been looking forward to your arrival so very much. Rimmer: How do you know my name? Head: My name is Cassandra. I am a computer, with the ability to predict the future with an accuracy rating of one hundred percent. Bless you. Rimmer: Bless you? What do you mean bless you? *sneezes* Cassandra: You need a tissue. Koechanski has one in her left hand pocket. She says, "Would you like this?" and you say "Thanks." Kochanski offers Rimmer a tissue- "would you like this", she says. He takes it and says "Thanks." They both turn and look at Cassandara, as they've just done what she said they were going to do. Cassandra: Extrodinary. Kryten: Extrodinary! Cassandra: Questions we can ask, it can tell us our future. Kochanski: Questions we can ask...it can tell us our future! Cassandra: How does it work? The future's not happened yet! Lister: I'm not going to say that. Cassandra: I never said you would. Lister: Well, how does it work? The futures not happened yet! Cassandra: Although you do. Lister: Smeg *looks around* Rimmer: Let's ask her a question about the future. A biggie. Lister: Okay, Cassandra. Do we ever get back to earth? Has the human race survived? Cat: Do I ever find my singing tie pin? Koechanski: But do we want to know all this stuff about the future? Do we want to know, for example, when we die? Rimmer: Chris is right. Something like that could mess your life up forever. Cassandra, I have a question. Cassandra: I know, Arnold, because I know the rest of this conversation. Rimmer: So what's the anwser? Cassandra: He chokes to death aged 181 trying to remove a bra with his teeth.

[Lucius]

I didnt read everybodies replies but here is what I think.. Fate is both destiny and choice, free will results into fate. We make up our own fate, but when we set it, we cannot escape it. We all suffer the consiquenses of our actions. Destiny exists, somethings are meant to happen, others are created by free will, they are consiquenses but fate none the less.

[Truthbearer]

What you are describing is not really fate, its causality. Every single effect is a direct consequence of of the cause. Thus if a cause is triggered, the consequence will inevitably show itself. That is not fate, it's just the result of every single action we perform, and the effect that is makes on our surrounding physic and psychic environment. Remember, whatever the action one performs, there is always the posibility of not performing it or doing something else(ideally). The only way to percieve these actions as fate, once again is by looking back from the future, knowing it for some reason, or conditioning for the conditions to occur, although this will prove a very ardous task, for it must take into account every single factor that can sway one into making a certain choice. P.S. An example of the latter would be the Matrix sequels that, although highly critized and considered inferior, are a brilliant portrayal of how the system creates an illusion of choice while it conditions the individual to pick a certain path, therefore allowing the concept of fate to exist.

[Lucius]

Perhaps its not completely fate..it depends on how you define fate.. So..what we are looking for is destiny, so the questionis Free will or destiny(to make it easier for), something that is preset to happen and cannot be avoided. I think some things are destiny indeed, meeting a certain person can indeed be destiny, as is the twin flame/soul idea. Also being in a certain place someday might also be destiny. And nobody utimately has a "better" or greater destiny when you look at a souls entire lifetime, but some might have a greater destiny, a higher destiny then others in one particular life though. Destinies do differ, but ultimately, perhaps even many life times beyond, we all have a higher destiny. Free will is also existant, and thats is suffer the consiquenses of your actions thing again.

[Kaniaz]

I still prefer Cassanadra and her theory that Lister is going to die aged 181 when he removes a bra with his teeth.

[Truthbearer]

The problem is there is no way to prove that we have a certain destiny, or that we were meant to do something or be somewhere. Many times we attribute happenings to destiny, when in fact the culprit is coincidence. It is posible to expain that there is no fate or destiny, but they are rather just creations of the human mind, to give its existance some sort of purpose.

[evangel]

The same explanation could be said of chance or "coincidence" ... You can't "prove" coincidence exists any more than you can prove destiny exists. To me, all that probability tells us is that we know very little (if anything at all) and that the "facts" are always subject to change.