Thread: What Is Real?

Originally Posted by Keeper

from this thread about if it is right to kill DC's I asked a question: what is real?

the reason for this in that thread was to see if DC's are any less real then you or I. So far it has not been naswered in a satisfactory way, so I will now ask it here: whatis real?

please, no dictionery deffinitions. they are far to vage. I just want to know, in simple terms, what real is.[/b]

I guess this can be very subjective.
They say perception is reality. The line becomes vague because we are dealing with a dream world and a physical world. When we dream we believe it is real. When we become lucid we know that the decisions we make are real but hold no consequences, in a manner of speaking.
If you decide to rape a DC in a lucid then your decision was real. IF you have a non lucid dream and you rape a DC your conscious actions may not have been real,l but somewhere in your physce it holds some realism. But again, that is where it become vague.

A dream character is a manifestation of your mind. Why would it be any more real than a tree in your dream. Because it is like us? Dream content is not real. IMO

exactly. How do you know it is all in your head anyway?

Originally Posted by Keeper

exactly. How do you know it is all in your head anyway?[/b]

With out getting into parallel universe or subjects of that nature, it is like right and wrong. Generally speaking from an average perception, we know right from wrong and real from fake.
Some do not.
-Right from wrong for everyone varies.
-real from fake - we are all deceived at times. perception is very false at times.

What do you think?

hmmm ... I don't quit understand what you mean. Are you saying some things are real for some and not for others?

I think my main idea of what is real is what is external and what is internal. It seems the latter is easier to define, though... dreams, I classify as not real because they are entirely internal. and they take place in your mind. The external world is real. This is one of those really philosophical questions "if a tree falls in the forest blah blah" This is only confusing because everyone has different perceptions, and the world really isn't "seen" without perceptions. However one has to rely on the idea that the world is stable, for everyone, but people make their own sense out of it based on their perceptions. I think the stable world is what is "real."

Originally Posted by Keeper

hmmm ... I don't quit understand what you mean. Are you saying some things are real for some and not for others?[/b]

Well there are so many variables.

Everyday variables:
-Gay rights may be moral to one and immoral to another.
-Religion may be real to one and not the other

Abnormal variables:
- Killing a human being is immoral to most. Some without a conscious it may not. I.E. Deranged, serial killers.
- waking life and a dream can be differentiated for most of us.
- Not knowing reality or hallucinations. I.E. Schizophrenics, Chemically altered.

No one can know what 'Real' is so lets just kill all those DC's

and everyone else too.!


wow, this was the most deep and philosophical post i and anyone else has ever in the history of time posted.

There is so many widespread examples of what is real, something can feel real to you and me, but in the process not be real if you use another term to describe it. When you really think on a subject and the thought goes into your frontal lobe you can totally lose track of this reality we are living in, entering into your own reality in your head, which is real to you and only you personally like a thought or a dream. Everything going on in your mind that you experience and perceive as real doesn't have to be real as in truly solid somewhere other than your mind.

I would say the universe is regarded as intelligent and set up a bit more complex, not so stupid to allow so easily a so called intelligent species to fall asleep, go into a LD and go into another parallel universe or dimension, kill some humans there but never allow us to die in the process because we are the ones dreaming. It has no meaning is far-fetched and kind of dumb to allow so easily for such a complex universe. If we are talking about this world a lot of bizarre unusual things would be going on.

Perhaps what is real is only perception based. It could be thought-based as well without any visual evidence. Take energy for instance, is it real? When the concept of energy was first introduced, none had ever seen or smelled or tasted energy. It was just a bunch of numbers that gave us information about things. Nobody previously believed that there was an actual existence that was real and meant something. It was merely a mathematical convenience. And where are we now? in the year 2007 we know how to measure energy on diverse levels, we have even taken it so far as to predicting where it goes, how it is transferred, how to manipulate it, and we use it in our everyday lives, the calories that we eat or the power of a light bulb. Yet no one ever in the history of mankind has been able to "see" energy, or to understand what it is, or draw a picture of it. Under this sense, energy cannot be real can it? Is it the convience that makes it real? Or the numbers? Because we know it's not visual.

Imaginary numbers are a better. During the past mathematician had to use imaginary number to solve various problems. Well it was the complete opposite to ordinary numbers so mathematician had a hard time excepting it. If somebody went back in time and said the too the mathematician that modern physics (quantum mechanics) is based on imaginary number they would have a heart attack.

All though everything in mathematics is still subjective as Godel proved. So reality is is subjective because it based on subjective. Because of godel most mathematician have stoped looking for truth uncertainty prinicple. Well Keeper works in absolutes so he proberly wont understand.

We can pick real apart. But we all have to live in a world that we have to determine what is and what is not real, period.
I think Donald Rumsfeld said it best:
" Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know."

'Real' is a word describing something, it will always be secondary to reality. Words aren't facts, words are just a way to describe what we see, think and feel. If I say 'I love you', what I did is use a few words we agreed upon that we all mentally attach to certain things. 'I' to the bunch of cells my conscious is seated in, 'love' to the feeling (cased by hormones and such) that all people can relate to, 'you' to some other bunch of cells I identify as a fellow member of my species.

Basically, what I am trying to say is, that
A) Maybe the device of language isn't capable of reaching all forms of understanding. Really, try to imagen a different way of thinking, a way without language but with some other system. Language never isn't perfect. I really wonder or 'creating' a super-language or some other system could enhance our ability to see the universe and philosophize about it.

B) Language is always, to an extent, subjective. Sometimes a little, like 'chair'. Some people have a very different mental picture of a chair. Show a 17th century peasant a 2007 super-trendy-designer-chair and he wouldn't even see a chair in it. 'Real' is one of those words that is extremely subjective.

-

Things we kind of have to accept:

We can never know or the world we perceive is real. There is always the possibility it is all a dream (but a dream in a way, that the difference from this and 'real' 'reality' would be as big as from our dreams as this reality. See it as the matrix scenario.

That 'fact' already makes it impossible to point out an absolute 'real'.

Now, what do we have? We have a lot of electric currents that reached our brains, trough senses like your eyes. What we see and understand however, is surprisingly 'solid'. There are laws of gravity, and such. So at least we can draw a line around our world, our universe, and say: This is a reality, inside it, everything is at real as it can be. Lets say we are all in the matrix, but lets nothing from outside never ever interferes, and there also never are any glitches (or agents for that matter). You would really have a 'real' there. It wouldn't be a real in a way that you can be certain of to be real For Ever (absolutely), but on a level it is 100% real.

And if all reals are broken, if the laws of gravity fail us and if our dreams can kill us (and thus break their reality), then there always is the conscious. Within itself, that is always real. I think, therefor I am

well..anything and everything you can possibly think of is real, just not the type of reality you are thinking of

dreams are real, and dream characters are just as real as dream places. except dream characters are dream places are NOT real PLACES or PEOPLE. but they are real IMAGES created by your subconscious mind. you can say dreams are a reality that reflects yourself, what do you dream about?

everything is real, its very simple
if it werent it wouldnt be anything at all,
and something can never be nothing,
even nothing is a real concept and can never be what it infers.
so the same logic states that even nothing is real, even if it infers that it isnt there.
ask a silly question?
get a str8 answer even though its probly too "cyclical" for you but then you believe in jesus and think the world is flat.
try the tree in the forest question or just dont bother asking next time least you get a proper debate about it.
still wondering if this answer is real enough for you? try some sartre or watch the matrix again and this time listen better.
if you still think anything is unreal id count your feet if i were you.

I liked the first part of your post, but then at the middle you went all steriotyped on me. what I emnt by that was someone using a dictionery to discribe real, and then having to us real to discribe the world the dictionery used.

Good Question in general. What is Real... Great Topic.

My Views on Waking Reality and Dreaming Reality are that Both are Realities simply because we experience them. In my view it is not possible to Experience something that ''isn't Real'' in a sense.

What doesn't Exist, DOESN'T exist and therefor cannot be experienced. So Any experience is REAL in one way or another. No doubt in MY mind about that. There is a HUGE difference between Pure Reality; All that is Real, and ACKNOWLEDGED Reality of that of which we are a 100% certain it is Real. Meaning that all we deem impossible by ''common sense'' is not at all inexistant. there is no such thing.

However what I HAVE concluded from Waking Reality and Dreaming Reality is that Waking Reality appears to be so that your Actions have Consequences in the Future. However Actions performed in Dreaming Reality, either Lucidly or not, have NO Future Consequences.

''Good and Bad'' only exist in a personal Realm of Reality called: Morals.
You can kill, loot, rape and SHIT on DCs and it wont have any consequences at all afterwards. It's not like these DCs will seek revenge and beat your arse Serverely for it in Later Dreams right?

As I see it the DreamReality is one that has Infinite Possibilities and No Consequences so that you can Experiment very Freely with certain Situations as seen in Waking life to see their outcome in that Dream.

I see it as a sort of way to explore and find out what your Actions in Waking life will Lead to without the Fear&Restrainment of the Legal/Social Prosecution, Social Condemnation, Forced Society Morals...etc that you WOULD face if you were trying it in Waking Reality.

Does that make sense to anyone here?

Originally Posted by 888

everything is real, its very simple
if it werent it wouldnt be anything at all,
and something can never be nothing,
even nothing is a real concept and can never be what it infers.
so the same logic states that even nothing is real, even if it infers that it isnt there.
ask a silly question?
get a str8 answer even though its probly too "cyclical" for you but then you believe in jesus and think the world is flat.
try the tree in the forest question or just dont bother asking next time least you get a proper debate about it.
still wondering if this answer is real enough for you? try some sartre or watch the matrix again and this time listen better.
if you still think anything is unreal id count your feet if i were you.
[/b]

Seriously, you need to lay off on the attitude. Keeper asked a good question and this thread has been nothing but a mature debate until you showed up. It'd be a good idea to keep this as a good, mature debate with out resorting to attack as there are many view points on the subject.

That said, you have an opinion on the subject at hand, voice it, but don't start using everything someone says to attack them, esspecially if they're undeserving of it.

-----

What is real? Thats a tough thing to say. Its a fine line that is drawn differently for everyone, and its hard to know when its crossed.

If someone ends up having a mental breakdown, and starts hearing voices, to them those voices are real. They believe in those voices. Insane people dont know they're insane(for the most part). So at that time, those voices are as real to that person as anything, even though they don't exist to anyone else.

Its the same with our dreams. When we sleep, and dream, the things we experience can be out-of-this world and beyond weird, yet we pass them off as normal (if we dont become Lucid) and think the dream is real until we awaken.

However, I will agree with 888 on the subject of The Matrix. As Morpheus asked, "What is real? How do you define real? If your talking about what you can feel, and smell. What you can taste and see. Then real is merely electrical signals from our brain"

That is however, up for argument. Really it comes down to perception. What do you percieve as real? Are the things you see in your dreams real? Are those voices that insane person is hearing real? Are the things you experience while high on 'shrooms real?

Perception and Beliefs. Is God real? Its all beliefs, all opinions. The line of what is real is drawn by each person individually.

Thats just my opinion anyway, take it for what its worth.

reality for me
is everything
there jsut real in differnt ways, if that makes sense?
To me I odnt know if God is real
but to Keeper,for instance, God is real
So for Keeper God is real

its a very hard point to explain, but I guess what i mtrying to say is that
thoughts are real
and perception is real
so whatever you perceive to be real
is real for you
I beleive reality for one man, is comepltely different to reality for another
Imran

Believing in something being real, and it actually being real are 2 different things. His belief in God is real, but that doesnt make God real. Not saying God isn't real, but just stating.

Simply, 'Real' is a variable. Real is an invisible line drawn by each person individually. Real is a part of someone's perception of something. Real is a belief, and an opinion.

Originally Posted by ExoByte

Simply, 'Real' is a variable. Real is an invisible line drawn by each person individually. Real is a part of someone's perception of something. Real is a belief, and an opinion.
[/b]

Yes, all quite true.

However, not like all 'reals' in people's mind are equal, except for to Them. There are people that think, for instance, there really is a Bigfoot. However, that can be proven wrong, maybe it's hard, but it can be proven wrong, for instance if we cut down all the woods and find alot of bears but no bigfoots.

There is a general system of realness that surpasses personal drawn lines of 'real'. People might think the earth is flat, but a system we all agreed upon, often called science, can disprove that.

Absolute real can never be achieved (or found purely scientifically. People can quite easily think something is 100% real. And there are also 'systems of realness', like the law of gravity that would 'disprove' everyone that thinks it is 100% real that people can fly 'if they just want to'. The system isn't perfect, but because the system is kind of a collective set of rules of real and not-real, it is 'better' then personal reals. Especially if about the tooth fairy and Such.

Originally Posted by Neruo

Yes, all quite true.

However, not like all 'reals' in people's mind are equal, except for to Them. There are people that think, for instance, there really is a Bigfoot. However, that can be proven wrong, maybe it's hard, but it can be proven wrong, for instance if we cut down all the woods and find alot of bears but no bigfoots.

There is a general system of realness that surpasses personal drawn lines of 'real'. People might think the earth is flat, but a system we all agreed upon, often called science, can disprove that.

Absolute real can never be achieved (or found purely scientifically. People can quite easily think something is 100% real. And there are also 'systems of realness', like the law of gravity that would 'disprove' everyone that thinks it is 100% real that people can fly 'if they just want to'. The system isn't perfect, but because the system is kind of a collective set of rules of real and not-real, it is 'better' then personal reals. Especially if about the tooth fairy and Such.
[/b]

I agree with that mostly but, there is one thought "What The Mind Can Conceive And Believe It Will Achieve."

Someone thought of the airplane...and then they flew, someone else thought of the television and there it was and, the automobile, space flight, the internet...and so on etc.

Sometimes belief in things that seem unreal make them real. Realism is a difficult subject and highly debatable.

you may be interested in this even if you have probably heard about it. It's a link to a Wikipedia page about the dream argument and what is real and what is a dream.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_argument

I don't think the link worked but just type it in or look it up on Wikipedia if you care enough.

Everything is real. Even dreams. A dream can screw you up, big time. A dream can change the way you look at things. A dream can make or break a decision in "real" life for you. Everything that you know to exist in any way, shape, or form, (or idea), is real. Time is real, and everything exists in time. So everything is real in every time. Even Ideas that a person has not come up with are real. All this only leads to the more important question of: What do we (humans) care about? What do we care if something is real over here?(say... Canada) Or real over there?(Say... Mars) Since it's all real at all times we should care about both things equally. However, we don't. Simply put we care more about whichever one is affecting us more at the current time we are existing in, or sometimes, will be affected by. So as it's been said before, reality is defined by perception. Everything is real, but some things are more real to us then others. I hope I answered your question.



EDIT: Spelling

Originally Posted by taltho

I agree with that mostly but, there is one thought "What The Mind Can Conceive And Believe It Will Achieve."

Someone thought of the airplane...and then they flew, someone else thought of the television and there it was and, the automobile, space flight, the internet...and so on etc.

Sometimes belief in things that seem unreal make them real. Realism is a difficult subject and highly debatable.
[/b]

Hmmm... Well interesting point. However, someone also tought of a flying saucer that could be build by mirco-wave ovens and driven by a mouse... but that hasn't been build and quite likely never will in the way it was thought of. And is the airplane invented? It is more the perception of the birds mixed with concious that results in such ideas to fly.

However, that doesn't matter, for the mind, a reality in a way too, Can indeed create something from nothing (if you don't count it existing and don't count the stuff that matters in our reality, like braincells).

So, the mind can believe a whole lot, but to translate that to our reality is not always possible. Mostly I guess, because the reality of the mind is 'lesser' then the reality of what we see.