Thread: Why You Should Never Commit Suicide Or Lie

I truly hope not many in the world need the above posted information and explanation. If they do then I'd be quite saddened for the state of society.

"omg end of teh wlrod"!

*Beating someone else to*

"O'nus! Some people have terrible lives and it is, in fact, prudent to kill themself!"

Reasoning for killing self:
- Self-interest - prudency

Complications:
- As a universal law, we can determine that this reasonining is contradictory - everyone should kill themself by this logical reasoning. Why? Let me outline why:

- You know you will die
- Therefore, you should kill yourself.

See the problem..? It is then inferred that there are truly alternative reasons for the individual to commit suicide.

Four reasons why people kill themself: (Taken from Emile Durkheim, "Suicide")
1. Egoistic Suicide: This is the type of suicide that occurs where the degree of social integration is low, and there is a sense of meaningless among individuals. In traditional societies, with mechanical solidarity, this is not likely to be the cause of suicide. There the strong collective consciousness gives people a broad sense of meaning to their lives. Within modern society, the weaker collective consciousness means that people may not see the same meaning in their lives, and unrestrained pursuit of individual interests may lead to strong dissatisfaction. One of the results of this can be suicide. Individuals who are strongly integrated into a family structure, a religious group, or some other type of integrative group are less likely to encounter these problems, and that explains the lower suicide rates among them.

The factors leading to egoistic suicide can be social currents such as depression and disillusionment. For Durkheim, these are social forces or social facts, even though it is the depressed or melancholy individual who takes his or her life voluntarily. "Actors are never free of the force of the collectivity: 'However individualized a man may be, there is always something collective remaining – the very depression and melancholy resulting from this same exaggerated individualism.'" Also, on p. 214 of Suicide, Durkheim says "Thence are formed currents of depression and disillusionment emanating from no particular individual but expressing society's state of disillusionment." Durkheim notes that "the bond attaching man to life relaxes because that attaching him to society is itself slack. ... The individual yields to the slightest shock of circumstance because the state of society has made him a ready prey to suicide." (Suicide, pp. 214-215).

2. Altruistic Suicide. This is the type of suicide that occurs when integration is too great, the collective consciousness too strong, and the "individual is forced into committing suicide." (Ritzer, p. 91). Integration may not be the direct cause of suicide here, but the social currents that go along with this very high degree of integration can lead to this. The followers of Jim Jones of the People’s Temple or the members of the Solar Temple are an example of this, as are ritual suicides in Japan. Ritzer notes that some may "feel it is their duty" to commit suicide. (p. 91). Examples in primitive society cited by Durkheim are suicides of those who are old and sick, suicides of women following the death of their husband, and suicides of followers after the death of a chief. According to Durkheim this type of suicide may actually "springs from hope, for it depends on the belief in beautiful perspectives beyond this life."

3. Anomic Suicide. Anomie or anomy come from the Greek meaning lawlessness. Nomos means usage, custom, or law and nemein means to distribute. Anomy thus is social instability resulting from breakdown of standards and values. (Webster's Dictionary).

This is a type of suicide related to too low a degree of regulation, or external constraint on people. As with the anomic division of labour, this can occur when the normal form of the division of labour is disrupted, and "the collectivity is temporarily incapable of exercising its authority over individuals." (Ritzer, p. 92). This can occur either during periods associated with economic depression (stock market crash of the 1930s) or over-rapid economic expansion. New situations with few norms, the regulative effect of structures is weakened, and the individual may feel rootless. In this situation, an individual may be subject to anomic social currents. People that are freed from constraints become "slaves to their passions, and as a result, according to Durkheim's view, commit a wide range of destructive acts, including killing themselves in greater numbers than they ordinarily would." (Ritzer, p., 92). In addition to economic anomie, Durkheim also spends time examining domestic anomie. For example, suicides of family members may occur after the death of a husband or wife.

4. Fatalistic Suicide. When regulation is too strong, Durkheim considers the possibility that "persons with futures pitilessly blocked and passions violently choked by oppressive discipline" may see no way out. The individual sees no possible manner in which their lives can be improved, and when in a state of melancholy, may be subject to social currents of fatalistic suicide. (Martyrdom)

I hope this has been enlightening.

~

Okay
Why you should commit suicide
. Life is pointless
. Their no god all your work leads to nothing
. Your worthless at the end of the day your worm food
. Everyone you meet and loves you will die

Edit:you beat me to it.

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

Okay
Why you should commit suicide
. Life is pointless
. Their no god all your work leads to nothing
. Your worthless at the end of the day your worm food
. Everyone you meet and loves you will die
[/b]

See my above-mentioned post.

By this logic you have propounded - everyone should kill themself.

Hurray!

Hopefully someone brings up existentialism before I bit my lip off.

~

By this logic you have propounded - everyone should kill themself.

Hurray!

Hopefully someone brings up existentialism before I bit my lip off.[/b]

Their is no such thing as absolutes everything is subjective. Everything is meaningless and chaotic theirfore every action is pointless life itself is pointless. You argue for self preservation, however where is evolution heading to logic to meaning no it pointless cycle of life of existances. If we end it now then their will be nothing lost because their is nothing. I think theirfore i not.....

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

Their is no such thing as absolutes everything is subjective. Everything is meaningless and chaotic theirfore every action is pointless life itself is pointless. You argue for self preservation, however where is evolution heading to logic to meaning no it pointless cycle of life of existances. If we end it now then their will be nothing lost because their is nothing. I think theirfore i not.....
[/b]

Well then you can kill yourself.

Well then you can kill yourself[/b]

You cant kill yourself. See yourlife may be finite, however time is infinte and will reply a infinte times. Case and point your screwed. The best thing is not to be born at all.

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

Their is no such thing as absolutes everything is subjective. Everything is meaningless and chaotic theirfore every action is pointless life itself is pointless. You argue for self preservation, however where is evolution heading to logic to meaning no it pointless cycle of life of existances. If we end it now then their will be nothing lost because their is nothing. I think theirfore i not.....
[/b]

Notice that I tried to pre-emptively cover this response in my first post:

Common Rebuttle:
- [i]"I'm a (insert pseudo-intellectual label full of hubris here) - I do not care if I die!"

Response:
- Go kill yourself.
Serious Reponse: (That is usually ignored considering the type of person that would say the aforementioned)
- If you did not care to die - you should already be dead.
- If what you say is true - you should have no motivation to talk to me. ie. you should have never been saying this in the first place if you truly believed it.
Psychological reasoning:
- Attention whore.
[/b]

Does this give anymore insight into what you said?

~

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

You cant kill yourself. See yourlife may be finite, however time is infinte and will reply a infinte times. Case and point your screwed. The best thing is not to be born at all.
[/b]

This entire thread of mine is to try and extrapolate from logical and psychological reasoning that suicidal tendencies are in fact derived from alternative reasons than usually projected.

Consider Durkheim's four reasons for suicide and that "martyrdom" is what you are projecting.

This may easily be representative of your sense of social-frustration or frustration with your parents - that you likely feel that nothing you do can achieve thier praise or love.

What do you think..?

Quick edit: Your reply their implies that everyone is a part of time - that we are all one with time. Please elaborate your reasoning for this.

~

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

You cant kill yourself. See yourlife may be finite, however time is infinte and will reply a infinte times. Case and point your screwed. The best thing is not to be born at all.
[/b]

Well then learn to deal with it case and point.

what's interesting reading all this is that all the different reasonings with suicide seem to be related through no concept of tommorrow. I mean I've felt pretty crummy from time to time. sometimes the idea of suicide come up, not that I'd ever do it, I lack the nerve for that one . Seriously though in those times I think that I've always been able to keep going no matter what the situation by keeping in mind that nothing in this life can go on without end, be it pain of any kind, physical or mental, or depression. I can think back to all the times before when I thought that there was no tomorrow only to find that the next day everything was fine, you may be under pressure, you may fail the math test, but there is ALWAYS another day, and whether you live or die is decided by you alone.

That's what I thought was interesting about it.

Originally Posted by bentrider08

what's interesting reading all this is that all the different reasonings with suicide seem to be related through no concept of tommorrow. I mean I've felt pretty crummy from time to time. sometimes the idea of suicide come up, not that I'd ever do it, I lack the nerve for that one . Seriously though in those times I think that I've always been able to keep going no matter what the situation by keeping in mind that nothing in this life can go on without end, be it pain of any kind, physical or mental, or depression. I can think back to all the times before when I thought that there was no tomorrow only to find that the next day everything was fine, you may be under pressure, you may fail the math test, but there is ALWAYS another day, and whether you live or die is decided by you alone.

That's what I thought was interesting about it.
[/b]

I like that. This is very insightful to the existential side of things. Have you read Sartre..?

~

This entire thread of mine is to try and extrapolate from logical and psychological reasoning that suicidal tendencies are in fact derived from alternative reasons than usually projected.

Consider Durkheim's four reasons for suicide and that "martyrdom" is what you are projecting.

This may easily be representative of your sense of social-frustration or frustration with your parents - that you likely feel that nothing you do can achieve thier praise or love.

What do you think..?[/b]

I guess it stupid.
Why does their need to be a reason their is no reason to live but except self presavation and delusion and their is no point of dying for similar reason. I guess you just want four boxes to tick to make life seem simple. Psychology the new good and evil. If everythings meaningless then social frustration wouldnt come into it as that is meaningless and parents common fraudien belife.

Well the only reason i see not to commit suicide is because you can just about think. Also killing yourself would achieve nothing as you cant die.

Your reply their implies that everyone is a part of time - that we are all one with time. Please elaborate your reasoning for this.[/b]

According to Einstein time doesnt go one way. If this is true we are stuck in time as you would say and it repeats infintely i.e. time cannot end and it is infinte. It like the question what before the bigbang the anwser is nothing, what happen when you die nothing.

sometimes the idea of suicide come up, not that I'd ever do it, I lack the nerve for that one [/b]

The worse exprience of my life was knowing their no god and you will dye. At first it didnt scare me, but as time progressed one day and realised what this means and how years of my life have gone. I remeber standing in terror as i realised i was going to dye. It still scares me and when the second i think about it a kind of nothing comes over me that is the worse feeling ever.

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

I guess it stupid.[/b]

I swear - I am going to kill you. This will be the last time I respond to a post of yours that employs an ad hominem.

Why does their need to be a reason their is no reason to live but except self presavation and delusion and their is no point of dying for similar reason. I guess you just want four boxes to tick to make life seem simple. Psychology the new good and evil. If everythings meaningless then social frustration wouldnt come into it as that is meaningless and parents common fraudien belife. [/b]

I am not asserting that self-preservation is not the reason to live and neither are you. If self-preservation were the meaning to life, then you would live forever and time would not be the prominent body in which you "go into" or whatever.

I am not ticking off boxes to "make life simple". I am saying that when it comes to suicide, logic and reasoning show that there are alternate reasons for wanting to commit suicide than usually propounded. You do not just randomly decide one day, "Oh, I'm killing myself" because that is more likely to be called an accident, right?

Either way, consider that what you are proposing is what I said above - fatalistic suicide. Go read it again (if you did).

Well the only reason i see not to commit suicide is because you can just about think. Also killing yourself would achieve nothing as you cant die. [/b]

Another outlandish thing for someone to say - especially a skeptic like yourself - when it is impossible for you to justify such a statement. Please try to justify this without any speculations or dogmatism. This is just the same logic behind theists and heaven that you are so adamently against.

According to Einstein time doesnt go one way. If this is true we are stuck in time as you would say and it repeats infintely i.e. time cannot end and it is infinte. It like the question what before the bigbang the anwser is nothing, what happen when you die nothing.
[/b]

Notice that you say IF. This means that it is not certain and can not be proven empirically. Yet again, for a skeptic like yourself who believes in science so much, you are completely non sequitor.

The worse exprience of my life was knowing their no god and you will dye. At first it didnt scare me, but as time progressed one day and realised what this means and how years of my life have gone. I remeber standing in terror as i realised i was going to dye. It still scares me and when the second i think about it a kind of nothing comes over me that is the worse feeling ever.
[/b]

Considering your previous posts - you should have no reason to fear death as you have adamently asserted that death is an inevitability and that you do not truly die anyway!

~

Thank you for the nice comment O'nus. well...I think it's good. No I haven't read Sartre. Who is he?

Hmmm, well I have a justification for my existence yet it involves religious thinking, which probably would not be acceptable in this discussion.

So what other reasons are there for living though? I guess if we think of time as being infinite as Einstien theorized then maybe we should try to live for our children I mean they are the future and if the future is infinite shouldn't we live for them? I mean a lot of people think that influencing young people is one of the most important things there is. So we should kind of be an example to them then?


"The worse exprience of my life was knowing their no god and you will dye. At first it didnt scare me, but as time progressed one day and realised what this means and how years of my life have gone. I remeber standing in terror as i realised i was going to dye. It still scares me and when the second i think about it a kind of nothing comes over me that is the worse feeling ever."

well, when you think about death it can be kind of scary, but I've nearly died from an enzyme deficiency, that was completely unexpected and I nearly drowned in a pool. The kind of wierd thing about death is you never know when it's going to happen so the best thing is there's no reason to worry about it. About the scariest kind of death to me would be suicide because then you know exactly when and how you're going to die. I guess I'd just prefer natural death, or if unnatural something that I was completely not expecting.

Jean-Paul Sartre is the renown French existentialist. He and Soren Kierkegaard are typically considered the fathers of existentialism. Try looking for them in a used book store sometime - you may enjoy.

No matter what your justification for existance is - I find that the words are usually interchangable with the atheistic. We all find our own ideas and beliefs which drives us to live life to the fullest potential - the enjoy sounds and laughter. I commend you on your transcendence.

~

A (fallacious) ad hominem argument has the basic form:

Person A makes claim X
There is something objectionable about Person A
Therefore claim X is false
Ad hominem is one of the best-known of the logical fallacies usually enumerated in introductory logic and critical thinking textbooks. Both the fallacy itself, and accusations of having committed it, are often brandished in actual discourse (see also Argument from fallacy). As a technique of rhetoric, it is powerful and used often, despite its inherent incorrectness, because of the natural inclination of the human brain to recognize patterns.

In contrast, an argument that instead relies (fallaciously) on the positive aspects of the person arguing the case is known as appeal to authority.[/b]

I swear - I am going to kill you. This will be the last time I respond to a post of yours that employs an ad hominem.[/b]

I didnt know what the word ad hominem was, however as i do now i not using ad hominem.

I am not ticking off boxes to "make life simple". I am saying that when it comes to suicide, logic and reasoning show that there are alternate reasons for wanting to commit suicide than usually propounded. You do not just randomly decide one day, "Oh, I'm killing myself" because that is more likely to be called an accident, right?[/b]

Well No as you can randomly decide to comment suicide one day this would be techniquely a suicide as killing yourself is no accident.

Another outlandish thing for someone to say - especially a skeptic like yourself - when it is impossible for you to justify such a statement. Please try to justify this without any speculations or dogmatism. This is just the same logic behind theists and heaven that you are so adamently against.[/b]

Well the four laws of logic
http://www.cheniere.org/books/aids/appendixIII.htm
You should read it.

Considering your previous posts - you should have no reason to fear death as you have adamently asserted that death is an inevitability and that you do not truly die anyway![/b]

Well no that not the nature of a phobia. Well a person can be scared off fire even if they think they wont actaully be caught in a fire e.t.c. or be harmed.

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

I didnt know what the word ad hominem was, however as i do now i not using ad hominem.
[/b]

To clarify, an ad hominem would be if I were to do the following:

"You are wrong because you are dumb." - That is an ad hominem statement.

Well No as you can randomly decide to comment suicide one day this would be techniquely a suicide as killing yourself is no accident. [/b]

I just mean it would likely be perceived by others as an accident. Get what I mean..? I am not really trying to assert anything crucial there..

Well the four laws of logic
http://www.cheniere.org/books/aids/appendixIII.htm
You should read it.
[/b]

Thank you for providing this resource. I will read it and perhaps PM you for a more personal insight as to what I take out of it. On that note, I would like to note to you that I am an advocate of chaos and that you have proven yourself to cause much of it. I enjoy the chaotic nature you instigate (as it galvanizes people to adhere to their beliefs, etc.), I simply ask you do it in a reasonable nature.

Expect a PM from me shortly.

Well no that not the nature of a phobia. Well a person can be scared off fire even if they think they wont actaully be caught in a fire e.t.c. or be harmed.
[/b]

Exactly! This is exactly what I am talking about!

Consider why the person is afraid of the fire even if they have never been into contact with it. This is the same reason why a lot of psychology is propounded behind phobia's and irregular phobia's - there are deeper associations that must be considered and rectified in order to alleviate that fear.

In other words - it is not the ostensive topic at hand they fear - it is the thoughts that are behind it! It is not death that the suicidal person is fearing or desires - it is the end of other sources of pain or troubles.

~

In other words - it is not the ostensive topic at hand they fear - it is the thoughts that are behind it! It is not death that the suicidal person is fearing or desires - it is the end of other sources of pain or troubles. [/b]

Good assumtion, however what if the person was dead in side and didnt have any fears or desire. Like the film no fear where the person is in a plane crash and survives, but the destruction around him kills his hopes and desires he becomes fearless. See if a person desires nothing then it kind of leaves the four boxes redundent. Plus how do you know that sucide is a source of pain or trouble as it could be about excitement. Have you heard of the thing that start with A when they strangle theirself for pleasure as their a element of death and passing out. Sucide could be viewed as fun and pleasurable.

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

Good assumtion, however what if the person was dead in side and didnt have any fears or desire. Like the film no fear where the person is in a plane crash and survives, but the destruction around him kills his hopes and desires he becomes fearless. See if a person desires nothing then it kind of leaves the four boxes redundent. Plus how do you know that sucide is a source of pain or trouble as it could be about excitement. Have you heard of the thing that start with A when they strangle theirself for pleasure as their a element of death and passing out. Sucide could be viewed as fun and pleasurable.
[/b]

Yeah, that is egoistic suicide, as stated earlier.

It is not possible for someone to have no fears or desires - it is possible for people to have never been exposed to fears or desires. There is a tremendous difference.

Furthermore, there is an essential problem with the concept of no desire - what about when they have to eat or crap? That is a bodily desire.

And again, if the person is fearless and does not care to die - that is most likely fatalistic suicide (depending on the context).

~

but you would only get to experience suicide once, right? Did I misunderstand you? Were the people you talking about not really killing themselve just getting close to it? Maybe that doesn't matter though? I mean they might consider the pleasure it gives outweighs whatever fear there is of death. I mean to me one of the biggest things in addiction is that it feels good but you get to have that experience again and again, that is the big draw, like sex, a drug dosage, or even a roller coaster ride. I mean if I could only enjoy something once, well there wouldn't be much incentive to do it, but I may be totally wrong.

Not too sure about the suicide people. Though, I don't know if I've met anyone who actually would do that kind of thing for fun....well if they killed themselves then I can understand why I never met one.

Originally Posted by bentrider08

Not to sure though, I don't know if I've met anyone who actually would do that kind of thing for fun....well if they killed themselves then I can understand why I never met one.
[/b]

This is one of those things that I have to think about wether or not it is ok to laugh at.

~

Now that you mention it, one could take it either as a joke or as something seriously, I was only telling the truth when I wrote it. Does that make sense?

Suicide, as people've said before, is very cowardly. There is no "regret" involved in suicide... you can't regret having committed suicide... Also, I don't think people consider "if everyone thought this everyone would be dead" theories when they are considering suicide. I believe that those who are suicidal don't care about anyone else at that time...

People who are about to commit suicide aren't exactly in the best state of mind to logically reason their way through the situation.