Thread: Forever Or Never?

Universal truth can be discovered through ego death, but not really explained because it's just so beyond our conception.

And I believe the collective unconscious is unconscious, but basically our souls are not separate, they are the same entity that we classify as separate through illusion, however in actuality we're all the same living organism.

Originally Posted by Merlock

Eh...yes?



Knowledge is knowledge. What you said is...well, nonsense.
This world exists. This we know. But we don't know everything about it. Nor do we know anything about other worlds. Thus, we simply don't see the entire picture of existence. Only the part, in which we are limited at the moment.

Nonsense for sure when one only gets half the thought. Here is what was being thought to begin with..

Many talk of a collective consciousness, however what if it were not consciousness that is a collective, or rather a non dual essence, but awareness?

From experiences i have had, I see the base of all that is as pure awareness, a non dualistic presence. This is what I am. I am That. Upon this awareness the individual consciousness arises. In turn all knowledge arises upon this consciousness.


This is where the earlier questions and comments were coming from.

One flaw: I don't want to be part of any collective consciousness, awareness, or any being whatsoever. Because of this, I am not. I am a separate being on my own. But the idea of a collective consciousness contradicts that. Hence, it's absolete and false.

In essence, we aren't a collective consciousness in any way because I don't want that to be so.

Originally Posted by Merlock

One flaw: I don't want to be part of any collective consciousness, awareness, or any being whatsoever. Because of this, I am not. I am a separate being on my own. But the idea of a collective consciousness contradicts that. Hence, it's absolete and false.

In essence, we aren't a collective consciousness in any way because I don't want that to be so.

Excellent point Merlock - and since you want it to be that way, that is the way it is in your world.

Love and Light and Choice xxx

Originally Posted by Merlock

One flaw: I don't want to be part of any collective consciousness, awareness, or any being whatsoever. Because of this, I am not. I am a separate being on my own. But the idea of a collective consciousness contradicts that. Hence, it's absolete and false.

In essence, we aren't a collective consciousness in any way because I don't want that to be so.

You are correct in that you are not a part of a collective consciousness, you are your own self in a single consciousness, unique and individual. However, all individual consciousneses arise upon a single awareness. I know this definitavely, I have experienced this directly. All doubts as to this have been destroyed within me. Even so, the ego self still tries to fight the notion, but its fight fades continually day by day.

It is the temporary ego self that cannot accept the idea of being its own permanent self, but indeed this is exactly what is the case. When the body dies the ego self dies, all that left is an awareness, impersonal, unbound by shape and form.

You as a dualistic ego self cannot accept such, no one who experiences life as such can, only when direct experience of the primordial state of presence/awareness occurs can the individual truly "see" what has been described above, and this can only occur when one purposefully, willfully, and sincerely lets go of their idea of being a complete individual. Hence Free WIll.
You dont want to be anything but this ego self. You want to endure forever. Its the same with everyone "trapped" in existant form. Its a natural play of the energies in motion. This want is the basis of what is called Karma.The emotional attachment to the embodied self creates momentum. The desire to endure as an indivual, unique and self powered is what drives one to repeat existant lives in form. One body dies and this desire creates the momentum to propel one into anothe existant body at which time one builds yet another personality based on the circumstances of their lives. Hence ones desire is fulfilled. You get what you want, albeit probably not in the way you want it.
Absurd? Of course it is! Laugh at it!
It is what is though.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

You are correct in that you are not a part of a collective consciousness, you are your own self in a single consciousness, unique and individual. However, all individual consciousneses arise upon a single awareness. I know this definitavely, I have experienced this directly. All doubts as to this have been destroyed within me. Even so, the ego self still tries to fight the notion, but its fight fades continually day by day.

It is the temporary ego self that cannot accept the idea of being its own permanent self, but indeed this is exactly what is the case. When the body dies the ego self dies, all that left is an awareness, impersonal, unbound by shape and form.

You as a dualistic ego self cannot accept such, no one who experiences life as such can, only when direct experience of the primordial state of presence/awareness occurs can the individual truly "see" what has been described above, and this can only occur when one purposefully, willfully, and sincerely lets go of their idea of being a complete individual. Hence Free WIll.
You dont want to be anything but this ego self. You want to endure forever. Its the same with everyone "trapped" in existant form. Its a natural play of the energies in motion. This want is the basis of what is called Karma.The emotional attachment to the embodied self creates momentum. The desire to endure as an indivual, unique and self powered is what drives one to repeat existant lives in form. One body dies and this desire creates the momentum to propel one into anothe existant body at which time one builds yet another personality based on the circumstances of their lives. Hence ones desire is fulfilled. You get what you want, albeit probably not in the way you want it.
Absurd? Of course it is! Laugh at it!
It is what is though.

That's not absurd. What you were saying before was.
What you're describing is just what I deduce as the process of existence: one life ends, another begins and so on because ultimate existence (with infinite power and infinite knowledge) has no meaning, thus the need for such limited personal lives.

But that doesn't mean we are part of one being. Or were you never saying that in the first place?
What do you mean when you say "single awareness"?

I'm not saying that I'll always be who I am now. What I'm saying is that I'm not part of any single being that exists in existence alone. And my awareness, the kind that shifts from one life to another, remains the same. I will always be me but in each life, I imagine, I will have different traits.

Where as the idea of a collective consciousness, one single being in all of existence, means that both you and I are all part of it, that we don't each have our own unique awareness.

Pah, it's complicated thinking/talking about something there's no knowledge of other than logical deduction and the such, heh.

[QUOTE=Merlock;563041]That's not absurd. What you were saying before was.
What you're describing is just what I deduce as the process of existence: one life ends, another begins and so on because ultimate existence (with infinite power and infinite knowledge) has no meaning, thus the need for such limited personal lives.

But that doesn't mean we are part of one being. Or were you never saying that in the first place?
[QUOTE]

Language is a bear to deal with, albeit necesary. Definition of words can be different from person to person.

Ultimately I see there is actually only one Being, period. All else arises on all the planes of existance, including the planes themselves on that one being in duality. This all Else is the illusion that is so commonly reffered to.

So yes that is what I am saying, albeit not on a conscious or even subconscious level, but on the more basic level of simple awareness. You must differentiate between awareness and consciusness as it is the consciousness that arises on the awareness.

What do you mean when you say "single awareness"?

Just that. The awareness is all One. Its not consciousness thats all interconnected, its awareness. Each percieved individual has their own consciousness, but the awarenes is singular. The consciusness itself clouds over and hides this.

I'm not saying that I'll always be who I am now. What I'm saying is that I'm not part of any single being that exists in existence alone. And my awareness, the kind that shifts from one life to another, remains the same. I will always be me but in each life, I imagine, I will have different traits.

This is where I am at now in understanding the mechanics thereof. Enlightened texts all point to some form of individualities each moving from life to life in form working their way to Realization and union with the whole. Teachings indicate that the presence /awareness present in one body is the same on one karmic path from body to body. Seemingly there is some sort of uniqueness to it at this point in existance.Thats where I stand in question. What is the nature of that uniqueness?

I know what the presence awareness is from actually experiencing "seeing" through that state of being. I know there is no real uniqueness to it. There is only the slightest very subtle awareness of Self, really only by virtue of being aware. There are no thoughts such as I or me or mine. None whatsoever. No thoughts really at all, no consciousnees to think on. Subtle feelings are all that is. Feelings that would have to be described as of love and compassion. Its as if One "sees" all of existance out front of onesSelf in total nonjudgementa non discerning awareness. From this point of view there is no uniqueness. So where is and what is the uniqueness the teachings all describe? Thats my question at this stage.

Where as the idea of a collective consciousness, one single being in all of existence, means that both you and I are all part of it, that we don't each have our own unique awareness.

Pah, it's complicated thinking/talking about something there's no knowledge of other than logical deduction and the such, heh.

Like I stated above, for me, its more than logical deduction , but there are still aspects that are not clear.

Perhaps it has to do with what I have heard as called the straight path vs the spiral staircase. Perhaps I have "seen" what each end of the straight path is, but my questions have to do with the spral staircase in between?

The uniqueness is the reason for the deduction I've made.
We are not one being, not in awareness, not in consciouness, nothing.
Each of us has our own entire consciousness, our own entire awareness, our own entire being. I don't want to be part of one being in any way whatsoever and thus I'm not. Hence, the idea is absolete and we are all completely separate beings.

In essence, since we all have ultimate potential (to gain infinite knowledge + infinite power), we don't ultimately have any unique traits (only in our given life, like this one) but once again...that doesn't mean we are one being.

And, who knows, we may only really ever have ultimate potential. We may never actually utilise it. Since ultimate existence is pointless and we live such lives as this for experience...perhaps we never do gain ultimate awareness (in ultimate existence) and we are always characterised by our current lives?

I guess that would be one of my questions. But one that can't be answered as of yet, I imagine.

Oh, and, all in all...such topics are rather annoying to discuss in general.
On one hand we're discussing it out of curiosity for ultimate existence but on the other, we don't need to know all that because we have our given lives to focus on, the lives that have meaning.

Originally Posted by Illusions

I think Ireland had already been discovered by then lol

Please do your research so you know what I'm talking about.

www.michaeltsarion.com

The absolute universal truth is that the Universe is absolute.

The way I see it, The Meaning of life is to give life meaning. And that there is one data that we're all part of, but our perception of the data varies. This is where our alternate realities come from.

We're in a prototype phase until we die and our perception shifts as we learn the data we're in. Monsters might not have been real when we were younger, but we certainly acted like it.

Our actions influence the data, and our actions are what's real. What you're feeling/seeing/learning is real. It's real until it's no longer consistent with the data we're a part of.

Self-Awareness is a delusion. You're collecting data, and the perception of it varies between individuals. Sound is not sound, but a shift in air pressure. Sight is not seeing, but different variables of frequencies. Your mouth detects what is contained, and your nose detects what's excreting.

The Data is the Truth, everything else is the measurement of the value you place on different areas of the data. And what you value is true for you, but not absolute. Value shifts and is effected by gathering data.

Originally Posted by Lucid Kokasion

Self-Awareness is a delusion. You're collecting data, and the perception of it varies between individuals.

Heh, good to see you don't consider yourself human.
I truly pity people that either hold views such as the one above or those that deny all but the physical, considering us to be bags of meat, bones and nerves without a mind but only with a brain.
But the pity only goes so far because when they're done debating such points of view, they go out into their everyday lives pursuing their ambitions and interacting with people they care for, thus negating everything they were debating beforehand.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

You dont want to be anything but this ego self. You want to endure forever. Its the same with everyone "trapped" in existant form. Its a natural play of the energies in motion. This want is the basis of what is called Karma.The emotional attachment to the embodied self creates momentum. The desire to endure as an indivual, unique and self powered is what drives one to repeat existant lives in form. One body dies and this desire creates the momentum to propel one into anothe existant body at which time one builds yet another personality based on the circumstances of their lives. Hence ones desire is fulfilled. You get what you want, albeit probably not in the way you want it.
Absurd? Of course it is! Laugh at it!
It is what is though.

When you die, there is no evidence or knowledge left to suggest that this is the cycle - ironically, there is no evidence for this statement either. So how do you know this?

Originally Posted by Merlock

Heh, good to see you don't consider yourself human.
I truly pity people that either hold views such as the one above or those that deny all but the physical, considering us to be bags of meat, bones and nerves without a mind but only with a brain.

Sometimes I think of it like that. I think that if drugs can change our perception, memory and all experience, then where could the mind be? And what is it existing for?

Originally Posted by really

When you die, there is no evidence or knowledge left to suggest that this is the cycle - ironically, there is no evidence for this statement either. So how do you know this?

The statement is worded in the loose way I understand such from sifting through a number of Buddhist and Hindu texts in coordination with a few meditative experiences I have had that I am still contemplating. I have found mention of such experiences in the texts, but I have not the clarity at this time to be able to explain anything in detail other than what is already written in texts elsewhere.

Feel free to discount the statement as conjecture, though for me it is more than that. I just cant really explain the "more" with any kind of clarity at the moment. What I am "seeing" or am aware of, is tied into other aspects, aspects which I have only just become subtly aware of.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

The statement is worded in the loose way I understand such from sifting through a number of Buddhist and Hindu texts in coordination with a few meditative experiences I have had that I am still contemplating. I have found mention of such experiences in the texts, but I have not the clarity at this time to be able to explain anything in detail other than what is already written in texts elsewhere.

Feel free to discount the statement as conjecture, though for me it is more than that. I just cant really explain the "more" with any kind of clarity at the moment. What I am "seeing" or am aware of, is tied into other aspects, aspects which I have only just become subtly aware of.

Ah I see now.

if we dont figure everthing out at some point on our journey then i declare my existance as a poorly written novel!

Originally Posted by really

Ah I see now.

I have beed reading on the Buddhist teachings of the Bardo state, or the period between the death of the body and rebirth into another.
While i have no reccolection or awareness of a previous life , the "recollections or awareness" I have of this one begins prior to birth , while still in this Bardo state. The knowledge that the "I" existed before this body is a given for me.
I have images of being above my parrents while they were making love and then moving inside the womb. From there birth. Quite interesting and vivid.

I would also note that I was born into a wealthy family setting, strict parrents, with a firm base in the teachings of the religion of their upbringing. Looking back there really have not and continue not to be much of any distractions to meditation and spritual concerns. Only that which I have created myself really out of ignorance.

Like already stated, i am still contemplating this and more.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

The statement is worded in the loose way I understand such from sifting through a number of Buddhist and Hindu texts in coordination with a few meditative experiences I have had that I am still contemplating. I have found mention of such experiences in the texts, but I have not the clarity at this time to be able to explain anything in detail other than what is already written in texts elsewhere.

Feel free to discount the statement as conjecture, though for me it is more than that. I just cant really explain the "more" with any kind of clarity at the moment. What I am "seeing" or am aware of, is tied into other aspects, aspects which I have only just become subtly aware of.

So... no evidence or knowledge then..?

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

So... no evidence or knowledge then..?

Bits an pieces of knowledge is all -in respect to the subject of Karma and rebirth. Pieces that do fit in with what ancient texts and Buddhist masters describe.

The picture is coming together, but is not there just yet.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

Bits an pieces of knowledge is all -in respect to the subject of Karma and rebirth. Pieces that do fit in with what ancient texts and Buddhist masters describe.

The picture is coming together, but is not there just yet.

Sooo... feel like showing us these bits and pieces? Maybe?

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

The statement is worded in the loose way I understand such from sifting through a number of Buddhist and Hindu texts in coordination with a few meditative experiences I have had that I am still contemplating. I have found mention of such experiences in the texts, but I have not the clarity at this time to be able to explain anything in detail other than what is already written in texts elsewhere.

Feel free to discount the statement as conjecture, though for me it is more than that. I just cant really explain the "more" with any kind of clarity at the moment. What I am "seeing" or am aware of, is tied into other aspects, aspects which I have only just become subtly aware of.

My understanding, after sifting through many spiritualistic texts (not Buddhist or Hindu in nature) is that our soul evolves and learns lessons through numerous lives to become perfect, or at one with the source (people familiar with this term already will understand my point better). At that point they can go back to help other souls, exist in a perfect form with others that have achieved the same, or go back to scratch and start again, enjoying the process of the evolution of the soul. Most of this stuff is based from the conversations with god texts, but it seems to explain things the best so far, for my reading and experience.

Admittedly though the buddhist and hindu theories I know are very profound and by no means discount their viewpoints, I just havnt gotten around to reading any yet

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

Sooo... feel like showing us these bits and pieces? Maybe?

You can start with reply #42 above.

I have been reading from the Bhagavad Gita, Some of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's works, and "the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" by Sogyal Rinpoche(starting at Page 343).

i have been specifically taking in tne teachings of the Bardo states, or intermediate states between death and rebirth. All of it deals with the nature of the mind, and no its not the "physical brain" we are talking about here. The "mind' is basically our threefold natural state of being we are. Two of which most all are unaware of. The third manifests as the many shapes and forms in front of us that is our physical reality, however, all of it is merely relflections of our selves. Part of the nature of the mind, our threefold state of being.

This threefold state of being is mirrored in our sleep/dream states, our waking state and in the Bardos. This i know first hand, this is what I am "working" with now.

I know first hand the state of "Ground Luminosity' or "Rigpa". Its what i call the "I -less/Me- less view". i know such without a shred of doubt.

I know the state of shape and form, the solidifacation of the self arising energy of mind or Rigpa. I/we live in it here everyday.

It is the in between state I am starting to "know" bits and pieces of. The state where the energy that can form into thoughts and emotions arises .

Karma is created in the second and third states where the energy arises or radiates from the state of Ground Luminosity or Rigpa and then forms into thoughts and emotions and from their propels one to action thus evoking Karma.

The Books describe such much better than i just did.

So first hand:

I know the tail end of the Bardo states just prior to rebirth

I know the material realm, thoughts, emotions and action

I know first hand the Ground state of being, or Ground Luminosity, or Rigpa

It is the Spontaneous arising ,or radiance of ones own energy that I am just learning bits and pieces of first hand. Seeing how such is the basis for thoughts and emotion and seeing how such solidifies into shape and form and then action. As a note, this is where the law of attraction, power of intention and such comes into play.

This is the state in dreaming where one is aware of being asleep just prior to the dreams beginning.

This is the state in being awake just after there is there is a stimulus and then a pause just before emotion and thought arises. It is the pause itself as energy arises just prior to formimg into an emotion or a thought.

This is the state in the Bardos called dharmata.

As one can see there are ample opportunities to "learn" "experience" an also to "be" first hand.

I smile when I look in these forums and see all the people "playing" with lucid dreaming and not really ever understand what it is they are experiencing nor the lessons that are ultimately contained within those experiences. True irony ,in that which is "played" with is actually a great souce for liberation from a "trap" that few see that they are in..

Ok. You're doing that thing I dislike. I am really not trying to bash your faith or anything, in fact buddhism is one of my favourite religions [second to taoism]. What I don't like is some of the things your asserting as truth, simply because you have read them somewhere. We all know what can happen when people take the words of certain books word for word truth without questioning..

Hear me out:

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

You can start with reply #42 above.

Very well. Let's see what we have in reply #42:

OK. Bear in mind here, that I asked specifically for "evidence OR knowledge"
[Here we will take knowledge as it is define; "A justified, TRUE belief"]


So..

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

I have beed reading on the Buddhist teachings of the Bardo state, or the period between the death of the body and rebirth into another.
While i have no reccolection or awareness of a previous life , the "recollections or awareness" I have of this one begins prior to birth , while still in this Bardo state. The knowledge that the "I" existed before this body is a given for me.

OK no evidence so far [I think you'll agree]. However a claim of certain knowledge that you existed before this body. This is a given, apparently. OK, so it's a belief, but what is the justification for it? Knowledge requires justification, by definition, and I am interested in what this could be. Is this it ahead?:

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

I have images of being above my parrents while they were making love and then moving inside the womb. From there birth. Quite interesting and vivid.

OK. I occasionaly have images of being above the earth, flying, also images of living alongside dinosaurs. All in my mind, of course; this does not by any means make it so that I DID live with dinosaurs, or anything else, these are merely neurological creations of my mind, as I'd argue is your experience. I'm sure if I was suitably messed up, I would most likely have visions of my parents making love, and then feel like I am inside a womb. Thankfully, I don't; but in the event I did it would probably down to some kind of psychological condition, it would prove as absolutely no evidence for anything other.

A good rule as far as belief goes, is try to not base beliefs upon things happening solely in your head. This causes psychopaths, cults and God [amongst other things] complexes.

OK. So no evidence or reasonably justified knowledge as of yet. Lets keep on.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

I would also note that I was born into a wealthy family setting, strict parrents, with a firm base in the teachings of the religion of their upbringing. Looking back there really have not and continue not to be much of any distractions to meditation and spritual concerns. Only that which I have created myself really out of ignorance.

OK. I don't see how this provides any real evidence or knowledge, either; however it is rather interesting, and I commend you for breaking the mould. (y)

I was personally raised as an anglican christian; that worked.




OK. We've come to the end of reply#42. Not a great deal of helpful info there.


So what more have we got:

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

I have been reading from the Bhagavad Gita, Some of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's works, and "the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" by Sogyal Rinpoche(starting at Page 343).

Alright. Cool.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

i have been specifically taking in tne teachings of the Bardo states, or intermediate states between death and rebirth. All of it deals with the nature of the mind, and no its not the "physical brain" we are talking about here. The "mind' is basically our threefold natural state of being we are.

Sorry, but how do you know this? Why? What proof is there? Any evidence? Even your personal experiences? Anything?

Why should I believe that the mind is threefold state of being seperate from the brain anymore than I should believe in Satan milling around in hell? OK. It IS marginally more likely; but there also seems to be no tangible evidence whatsoever. You are simply asserting this as true because it is written in what you have read.

As I have outlined earlier; this can be very dangerous if we aren't careful.

Alright though, I will give you benefit of the doubt. Let's assume what you say is true. I have a great deal of respect for buddhism; so lets press on.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

Two of which most all are unaware of. The third manifests as the many shapes and forms in front of us that is our physical reality, however, all of it is merely relflections of our selves. Part of the nature of the mind, our threefold state of being.

So everything I see in physical reality is a reflection of myself? Part of the nature of my mind. I understand this to an extent.. but does this apply to everyone individually? or what.

Either way, why should we take what your saying as true anymore than we should take belief in Baal as true?

What have you got to backup these claims?

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

This threefold state of being is mirrored in our sleep/dream states, our waking state and in the Bardos. This i know first hand, this is what I am "working" with now.

Does it not make more sense for our dreams to be a collection of elecrical impulses in our neurons, made up from our experiences in real life?

Or am I just being ridiculous with that.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

I know first hand the state of "Ground Luminosity' or "Rigpa". Its what i call the "I -less/Me- less view". i know such without a shred of doubt.

Please, elaborate on this "I-less/Me-less view". You haven't explained it; just said you know it to totally true. why?

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

I know the state of shape and form, the solidifacation of the self arising energy of mind or Rigpa. I/we live in it here everyday.

I know the state of shape and form too. It's good. What exactly do you mean by shape and form as "the solidification of the self arising energy of mind"?

Why can't it just be different collections of atmos and molecules? I mean, we actually have tangible evidence for that.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

It is the in between state I am starting to "know" bits and pieces of. The state where the energy that can form into thoughts and emotions arises .

Awesome.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

Karma is created in the second and third states where the energy arises or radiates from the state of Ground Luminosity or Rigpa and then forms into thoughts and emotions and from their propels one to action thus evoking Karma.

Why? Sorry, but.. Any evidence or knowledge yet? It truly is a lovely idea and theory, which I'm sure is possible. But yeah, why should it be this rather than any other theory we come up with? Without evidence or reason I'm afraid you can't make these assertions.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

The Books describe such much better than i just did.

So first hand:

I know the tail end of the Bardo states just prior to rebirth

I know the material realm, thoughts, emotions and action

I know first hand the Ground state of being, or Ground Luminosity, or Rigpa

It is the Spontaneous arising ,or radiance of ones own energy that I am just learning bits and pieces of first hand. Seeing how such is the basis for thoughts and emotion and seeing how such solidifies into shape and form and then action. As a note, this is where the law of attraction, power of intention and such comes into play.

So you actually experience this stuff? Happening? Please, show us. That counts as evidence and knowledge, see.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

This is the state in dreaming where one is aware of being asleep just prior to the dreams beginning.

Does it not seem more likely to you that this state is just that: Being vaguely aware of being asleep before dreams begin, you know we do have an explanation for that stuff, Neurologically. That just seems far more documented and probable to me.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

This is the state in being awake just after there is there is a stimulus and then a pause just before emotion and thought arises. It is the pause itself as energy arises just prior to formimg into an emotion or a thought.

This is the state in the Bardos called dharmata.

As one can see there are ample opportunities to "learn" "experience" an also to "be" first hand.

Right.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

I smile when I look in these forums and see all the people "playing" with lucid dreaming and not really ever understand what it is they are experiencing nor the lessons that are ultimately contained within those experiences. True irony ,in that which is "played" with is actually a great souce for liberation from a "trap" that few see that they are in..

Alright, lets not look down on people. I notice this on this forum rampantly. So many people seem to think they are ultimately "wise" and can smile down on us ignorant children playing, whilst they know the real truth. Oh yes.

Please, don't take this as assault. I actually would like to see something convincing in relation to this, other than what you have read in a book and assert to be true. From what you've said It just isn't though, sadly.


So. Not one piece of evidence or justified knowledge.

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

Ok.. " "

I well understand your point of view, and such was well stated. However, you are missing one key thing here:

I am not trying to prove to anyone anything.

I am simply realting my experience through my own words.

If I state something firmly its because I see it as such. A great many of the experiences I have had, happend prior to me reading about it elsewhere. The reading was done to mainly to see what it was that was being experienced as evidenced by other accounts. It just so happens that what I experience seems to be well documented within the Hindu and Buddhist texts and teachings. It is also in Christian, Muslim and Jewish texts as well, though it took goig through the Hindu and Buddhist teachings to see it in those "religions". If you cant see any proof in my own words you sure wont see any in those words either.

If you seek an external "proof" you will not find such from me or anyone else, nor in any spiritual or mystical writings. Proof comes through experience and experience comes through belief and belief comes through letting go of what you think you do know and letting go of what you think you do know comes through faith and faith comes through the inspriation that comes from reading spiritual teachings . The whole process is part of letting go of the idea of yourself.
Nothing external to your own self will do. Anything external is just a road sign pointing the way to an inward journey, a journey which only you alone can take.

I really cant help you much, it is you that must help yourself. I could re-itterate the "i-less, me-less state", but you would not be anymore open to that at this point than you are to what has been discussed herein. However the subject is here elsewhere on these forums spread across several topics if you care to go looking around.

No, as far as you and most likey many others are concerned, not one bit of evidence or proof.

On the one hand, it is you who needs it because you have been unable to live it and experience it yourself. If you could, you may even put the description of it in different words than I have. Everyone does have their own unique way of describing the same essential thing.

On the other hand, I am living the evidence and the proof, so I dont need it to exist beyond my experiencing of it. I just relate such in my own words so those who need help looking within themselves have yet more signposts and those who would critisize have fuel for their criticism. Relating my experience also helps keep me grounded in what I am doing and keeps the distractions to a minimum.

*Brain hurting*