Thread: Fate Exists

Nice going, dipshit. Care to elaborate?

You weren't inspired to write this.

You were meant to write this because fate dictates it so.

You lose sir.

So, that's why I keep saying 'dipshit'...it's fate!

Originally Posted by Kushna Mufeed

Nice going, dipshit. Care to elaborate?

Thanks. Elaborate? I think I have, what more do I need to say?

Originally Posted by ExoByte

You weren't inspired to write this.

You were meant to write this because fate dictates it so.

You lose sir.

Hmm, very contradictory.

Fate exists, hence I was inspired and with fate, and so I win, all the time.

Think about it.

Wanna know fate? check the Pittsburgh Penguins and their lucky drafts and timing to suck only to have the players they have today.

Originally Posted by really

Fate exists, hence I was inspired and with fate, and so I win, all the time.

Not if fate says you lose.

Fate is an illusion based on the human construct of a non-branching timeline. When you look backwards all you see is the path you've taken and can no longer see the infinite paths you could have taken. This is a product of the collapsing wave form.

Just so you know, replies will be delayed as I am building them into one large fateful reply... got to get to bed now.

Fate/the Gunas exists

Everything /everyone in the physical world is moved like puppets on strings, while their consciousness is merely towed along for the ride. At the conscious level of physical embodiment the consciousnes attached to the body believes that it is the doer, but such is only an illusion of sorts. Circumstances surrounding the physical individual life is the "doer". Such is what raises and lowers each string of ones marionette. There is no true free will in this, only the belief in the illusion that there is.
Everything form the location of ones birth, to the family, social, political, religious, and economic( and other) settings one(physical) is raised/lives in determine the actions of the individual. Such settings are perpetual, on-going and on-changing.
Free will only comes about when ones conscious state "evolves" beyond the confines of the individual physical body/perception. But, even that moment of "evolvement" is brought about by fate/ the Gunas.

Even "evolvement" is a misnomer , as what such is is really realization. There is nothing to do, nothing to achieve. Everything is as it is, as it hhas always been. One is consciousness/awareness at every level there is. One is merely ignorant of all the levels aside from the one of being a physical form while caught up in the belief/perception of physical embodiment.

Seemingly complicated, yet so very simple.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

Fate/the Gunas exists

Everything /everyone in the physical world is moved like puppets on strings, while their consciousness is merely towed along for the ride. At the conscious level of physical embodiment the consciousnes attached to the body believes that it is the doer, but such is only an illusion of sorts. Circumstances surrounding the physical individual life is the "doer". Such is what raises and lowers each string of ones marionette. There is no true free will in this, only the belief in the illusion that there is.
Everything form the location of ones birth, to the family, social, political, religious, and economic( and other) settings one(physical) is raised/lives in determine the actions of the individual. Such settings are perpetual, on-going and on-changing.
Free will only comes about when ones conscious state "evolves" beyond the confines of the individual physical body/perception. But, even that moment of "evolvement" is brought about by fate/ the Gunas.

Even "evolvement" is a misnomer , as what such is is really realization. There is nothing to do, nothing to achieve. Everything is as it is, as it hhas always been. One is consciousness/awareness at every level there is. One is merely ignorant of all the levels aside from the one of being a physical form while caught up in the belief/perception of physical embodiment.

Seemingly complicated, yet so very simple.

Thank you for your harmony.

Originally Posted by ExoByte

Not if fate says you lose.

That depends on the context you're speaking in, which I think is now different than the original.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

This is a product of the collapsing wave form.

What's the product of a collapsing waveform? I don't see how that is relevant.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Fate is an illusion based on the human construct of a non-branching timeline. When you look backwards all you see is the path you've taken and can no longer see the infinite paths you could have taken.

I know what you mean, but I didn't derive my statement from that.


So now I will explain how I came about this. The previous posts in this thread were mainly for dramatic effect and while remaining true.

I've forgotten the title of the thread somewhere here in Philosophy, but basically the topic was about how actions and reactions, scientifically, are part of our thought processes. It said that humans are basically living under the illusion of free will, when really fate is in play - something which inevitably controls the entire universe.

Anyway, since then, I've been picking up and dropping ideas and thoughts, so to speak, and now I've thought of life in this way.

Nature is perfect. Everything in existence plays its own part and would not be the same if something were not to be part of it. For example, life would not be observed the same if the color "Ultrasastovotiphrizota", did exist. Or if round objects such as wheels were physically possible. So having said that, everything affects and changes something, and basically plays a role in all existence. This means that everything is always "supposed to happen." If conscious life biologically evolves further through machine and mechanical means, so be it - it is bound by fate so it will happen. Also consider the accuracy of the Zodiac and concepts of Astrology.

Being such very complex biological creatures, our intelligence and brain capacity is increasing and allowing us to realize and question our existence more thoroughly. We will always be unique, with distinct mental and physical bodies.

Such complexity also gives the illusion of free will. Free will, in speaking of absolute control, does not exist because of how we as humans, are made up of unique chemical and DNA bonds; it is impossible for us do so something we do not want to do! We will always be doing things and feeling things based on how we "are" in the chemical state. Free will, in speaking of absolute control, does not exist because for example, "I will run and win a race in the next Olympics" is not a single simple choice that I can make, if I am inexperienced. I must then mould my entire living system through practice, to grow and fit to that circumstance. That can only happen through natural desire. As another example: Consider a magnet. It thinks it has free will because has desires and fears, let's say, to move toward a negative charge, and away from a positive charge, all on one pole and visa-versa on the other. Being the way it is, it can only do this in one way, quite simply and lives under the illusion that it has free will because it always does what it wants to do, naturally.

Some of you may have seen Solskye's topic, "Are you truly Self aware?", which mentions the "Alpha->-Omega" model of the universe. I think it lives by the "Big Bang" theory. It says that the universe spreads from a single point and all cause and effect basically can only become more disordered. This model is very true, and coupled with the idea of fate, it illustrates complete sense. Things get more complex; vaster; weirder. And I need not wonder why I am hearing the following quotes:

1. "I just felt like it." - An inevitable example of fate.
2. "I don't know why I just did that." - An ironic example of fate.
3. "I just did the most random thing/That was so random." - Examples of a disordering universe. I have said before somewhere: nothing is random, it's an illusion.
4. "I feel like killing myself." - Example of both a disordering universe, and fate.
5. "So many possibilities/The possibilities are endless." - Examples of a disordering universe.
6."What will they think of next?" - An inevitable example of fate and a disordering universe.

In addition, there are those times when you are doing things unintentionally or unknowingly, whether they'd be right or wrong. And things experienced or observed which seem random, ridiculous or extreme, but really can emphasize a universe which is disordering and bound by fate. Examples include:

1. Everything in the Guinness World Records Books.
2. Any coincidence.
3. A dog barking hours and hours at a brick wall or reflective surface such as a mirror. Such may appear strange externally, but it is a "had to be there" concept - a fateful experience, which is only understood from the original viewpoint.
4. When you look into the pantry to get a glass of milk.
5. When you drive to work when you know you don't have to, and then your petrol tank runs empty or you become lost.
6. When you have a "mental block".
7. The outcomes of being drunk or intoxicated.
8. A physical or mental disease or disorder, growing inside ourselves, as we grow on this planet.
9. A kind of miraculous or astonishing fluke, without thought.


Please know that I can infinitely use absolutely any example in existence, but I have only chosen such examples to explain myself to the common viewpoint, respectfully. Such examples only make my points more obvious to most, but really there is no difference between a normal event and a coincidence, because in nature, when all meaning is discarded, everything is perfect and equal. I could say an example such as: “1. Look around you, this is everywhere and everything.” But that may not appear as evident and supportive to the vast majority of you, so I have listed above.

Sometimes, fate is incredibly obvious to oneself. You may feel like doing something, but something is stopping you at the same time. That is “something” that you are reasoning, knowingly or unknowingly, as everything is your choice. For example: When you’re sitting down, day dreaming, and you want to get up and have something to eat, but your mind is so busy that you continue to sit and wonder. Or, you are aware of something which needs to be done or preferred, but you allow yourself to be carried away with something else, such as strong excitement or emotion; consider your behavior and mindset at a party.

Coupled with free will, there is another illusion, the illusion of “being yourself”. We will always be ourselves, even when we are not happy with it. One must simply exercise ones particular personality if one prefers it so much, so it lasts, as with anything. That is all the notion means really, anyway.

Yet another beautiful thing about the universe: You can either believe that fate exists, being aware of how nature unfolds. You can ignore it and continue your life otherwise. Because together, these are the same: You can believe you can have full control over your life and do - or believe that fate gives you what you want and/or feel, anyway, always.

I’d like to finish with saying: I don’t expect full agreement with forum members, nor do I expect complete disagreement either. I know that this is nature I am dealing with.



I could go on if you ask, but I feel I have said enough in this post.

Originally Posted by really

The previous posts in this thread were mainly for dramatic effect

Please don't waste our time for the sake of dramatic effect.

I'm far more inclined to believe determinism than fate a you say it.

Originally Posted by Spamtek

Please don't waste our time for the sake of dramatic effect.

Did you originally view this thread to complain? Ok, I won't use dramatic effect, or implications so early in a discussion, or to start a thread anymore. I just wanted to get you thinking.

Also, I have no control of who's time I "waste" nor what they do with it.

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

I'm far more inclined to believe determinism than fate a you say it.

Yes. Determinism. I was going to mention that, but I was a little doubtful of what it was completely about. Do you mind pointing out exactly how it is different to this?

I'm not sure if you missed my point, Really, or if you just brushed it off. The theories surrounding modern physics (quantum mechanics specifically) show evidence that determinism is false, and that there is no predetermined future. Rather, the future is composed of 'waves' of infinite possibility and only when these waves approach the present do they collapse in to concrete particles.

i believe in fate.
its what God has in store for you, and you can change it to an extent by treating people with respect and compassion 'What goes around comes around'
The important thing (although not always easy) is to be positive and make decisions for yourself and work out what you would like to do.
There is also no such thing as coincidence. Everything happens for a reason...........

Since the future cannot be precisely predicted by any means, as a side-effect of quantum mechanics and chaos theory, it is entirely a matter of faith to believe in fate, as has been stated. Of course, believing in a fate that can be changed in any way is an additional contradiction in terms. Believing in a God presents its own fate paradoxes as well, but we need not get into those.

The idea of fate, in my opinion, serves no purpose other than to fuel other ideas, not all of which are appealing. Believing that future events cannot be avoided eases the pain of loss and amplifies the satisfaction one gets from good fortune. It gives pride to the wealthy and powerful, shame and misery to the chronically poor and weak. Fate encourages the perpetuation of the status quo and discourages change. Overall, I find it a disagreeable idea, but for many it is a comfort in times of great prosperity or despair.

I believe in fate for this very reason, and nobody can tell me eitherwise. This is one of the only things i am close minded with.

I was fired from babysitting and i was at home alone for the night, at the last second i got a phonecall to babysit her son yet she fired me anyway but was desperate. This has never happened before but the same night my house got broken into, because of that we got a dog, not only a dog but my dad knew someone who was gonna get their hunting dog shot because the way she was, ran away when hunting with the birds or w/e. She even got hit by a car when shew as a pup and we think got brain damage from that (she wasn't with us at the time of getting hit, with the hunter guy). I saved her life, she saved my life. She lived 8 years older then she was supposed to for a dog her size, she died in our house just over a year ago. But all the events from the night i got a call untill my dogs death nobody can ever tell me eitherwise, i don't care all the BS that i get but this is why i believe in fate. Me and my dog were ment to be together, and she lived 8 years longer then she should have. She was a cross between a chocolate lab pittbull. I believe in couincidences too, but this was easily my fate.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

I'm not sure if you missed my point, Really, or if you just brushed it off.

Well if you read what I said, I understood it but stated it wasn't where I derived my ideas. I wasn't basing my concept of fate off a timeline at all. I asked you a question that you still haven't answered. Perhaps you should go into more depth of what you are trying to convey?

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

The theories surrounding modern physics (quantum mechanics specifically) show evidence that determinism is false, and that there is no predetermined future. Rather, the future is composed of 'waves' of infinite possibility and only when these waves approach the present do they collapse in to concrete particles.

I don't understand.

Mainly what I already know about the quantum theory is that atomic and subatomic particles are broken up into many other particles; that each is a discrete quanta of energy. And that all matter possesses a wave-particle duality. But I do not see yet how that implies anything of fate. I know that the particles appear to be random, but are suggested to be part of multiple undiscovered dimensions, which brought about the String Theory.

Originally Posted by R.D.735

Since the future cannot be precisely predicted by any means, as a side-effect of quantum mechanics and chaos theory, it is entirely a matter of faith to believe in fate, as has been stated. Of course, believing in a fate that can be changed in any way is an additional contradiction in terms. Believing in a God presents its own fate paradoxes as well, but we need not get into those.

The idea of fate, in my opinion, serves no purpose other than to fuel other ideas, not all of which are appealing. Believing that future events cannot be avoided eases the pain of loss and amplifies the satisfaction one gets from good fortune. It gives pride to the wealthy and powerful, shame and misery to the chronically poor and weak. Fate encourages the perpetuation of the status quo and discourages change. Overall, I find it a disagreeable idea, but for many it is a comfort in times of great prosperity or despair.

Well said. I'm with you on that. There are many uses for it.


I would like to take this idea further.

If one only has Free Will of how one thinks, do you think there is a center or core for this Will to grow and originate? I mean, would there be a specific point where a "self" is defined in physical terms, or would you think fatefully we are wholly what we are, as a full chemical body?? Cut off my arm - am I personally any different?

I did answer your question; the second part that you quoted is the answer. The idea is that before a phenomena is measured by a conscious observer, it is a wave of probability. Only when a conscious observer "sees" something (and by that I mean experiences or measures it in some way) does this wave collapse and become a particle or group of particles. Whatever state we see it in, and therefore decide that it is in is where it stays after it has been observed. This is what is meant by the collapse of the wave form, and this is where fate is called in to question. Until it is observed by a conscious being, the future is a wave, and can become any of infinite possibilities. The consciousness is what 'decides' what it actually becomes; according to theories in quantum physics.

In the words of John Connor:

"There is no fate but what we make for ourselves."

In addition:

"Hinsight is always 20/20 vision."

~

Originally Posted by really

I was just inspired to write this.

You sir, are insane.

Originally Posted by Jdeadevil

You sir, are insane.

No, but I can appear to be.


Come on everyone! What do you honestly think of the real nature of Will Power?

Originally Posted by really

I would like to take this idea further.

If one only has Free Will of how one thinks, do you think there is a center or core for this Will to grow and originate? I mean, would there be a specific point where a "self" is defined in physical terms, or would you think fatefully we are wholly what we are, as a full chemical body?? Cut off my arm - am I personally any different?

I had a similar to this, except it went more along the lines of, in way to few words... everything that has and will happen in our timeline has always been, and even though we have a form of free will (not omnipotence as you put it) what we do and will do is always set in stone. Kind of like a guided free will.

And it makes little sense unless I say the whole long theory, which is too much typing for today.

Just wondering something. Say you had a time machine and went back in time to a point to try and prove fate, and it happened again at the same time, and the same day, the exact same way, what would your opinion be then?
or do you guys see fate as something different? that's how i see it, it's bound to happen and happens, and if you went back in time the exact same thing will happen to you at that time. Not the traveling you, because that's the future you, now the presant you.