Free Will or Determinism?

[bradybaker]

I recently finished watching Waking Life for the 8th or 9th time and as always was deeply intrigued by the discussion involving free will. On one hand, if God knows everything that is going to happen then where do we get off thinking that we can chose our own path? On the other, we know that all physical systems are governed by basic physical laws. Even if we "choose" to lift our arm, that entire process is governed by chemical, electrical and physical laws. So it seems that the Big Bang set up the initial conditions and the rest of history is just the playing out of these various subatomic particles. Either way, there isn't much room left for free will. I look forward to reading your input.

[Awaken]

I think it's sort of...both...As in, no matter what you do, it was meant to be, but it's still up to you to make the decision based on your history, your personality, and your current situation. Choices change as your needs change. What you 'need' at age 7 isn't exactly what you will 'need' when you're 35. So it is a conscious decision, but beyond that, I dunno...Feels well enough like my choice so I'm happy

[evangel]

Here's an old thread on the same topic... http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic....ght=predestined We can "choose our own path" but like Awaken said, it's a both... We have "control," but not, as some people would like to think ("as masters of our own destinies" - or as "free" in the sense that we have absolute power in determining our own fate). If we truly had "free will" in the sense that many people seem to think, we would also be aware of the entire range of "choices" available to us and we would also know the outcome of each of those "choices" hence making us God. If you think of a toddler who is given seven choices of which food to eat, those seven choices seem like a lot to him (especially since he only had two choices the day before) and so he feels that by making a choice he's large and in charge. We know it's really the toddler's parents that are in charge and in control of the range of choices available and that they also know each of the "possible" outcomes or results that each choice will bring about. Just a simple analogy... with God, I'm sure it is more complex, but that kind of sums how I see melding the two ideas together.

[jlambie]

i definately believe in fate, or determinism...whichever you want to call it. But there is always a part of me that wants to believe otherwise...but the more i think about it, the less likely it seems that we have ANY say at all... especially now knowing what i know about physical laws. Also, just various life situations that occur from choices, which always leaves you wondering "what if I made a different choice" or could I have even made another choice?........it's not that i mind being a pre-determined robot, you have to admit, it's kind of fun.

[bradybaker]

I believe that the concept of free will is entirely absurd. Here's why: Take any specific set of circumstances you wish in which a decision must be made. For the sake of this argument I'll use the example of having to choose an apple or an piece of chocolate for a snack. The instant that that decision must be made there are an infinite number of factors that influence your decision. For example (this is extremely simplified), you might have a craving for the sweet, rich chocolate and you might have recently had a bad experience with a bruised apple. These are examples of factors that go into the decision, conciously or not. In this set of circumstances you would choose the chocolate. Now, if those exact circumstances (cravings, thoughts, air temp, level of mental awareness, everything) were recreated 1000 times, every single one of those times you would choose the chocolate. Therefore, under any one set of circumstances, there is only one possible choice that can be made. At that moment in time, it is physical impossible for you to choose the apple, it becomes a non-option. This model of determinism can be applied to any decision that you ever have or will make.

[Awaken]

Originally posted by evangel We can \"choose our own path\" but like Awaken said, it's a both... We have \"control,\" but not, as some people would like to think (\"as masters of our own destinies\" - or as \"free\" in the sense that we have absolute power in determining our own fate). If we truly had \"free will\" in the sense that many people seem to think, we would also be aware of the entire range of \"choices\" available to us and we would also know the outcome of each of those \"choices\" hence making us God. * If you think of a toddler who is given seven choices of which food to eat, those seven choices seem like a lot to him (especially since he only had two choices the day before) and so he feels that by making a choice he's large and in charge. We know it's really the toddler's parents that are in charge and in control of the range of choices available and that they also know each of the \"possible\" outcomes or results that each choice will bring about. * Just a simple analogy... with God, I'm sure it is more complex, but that kind of sums how I see melding the two ideas together. Well-explained.

[CT]

yeah.. say hypotheticly you can copy the whole universe and watch it from start, will everything happen the same? Under the same circumstances, I think it will. Even thoughts.

[bradybaker]

I couldn't agree with you more CT.

[Human]

Some scientists think's that the brain are made that way that we have no free will, even we may be convinced we have. http://jamaica.u.arizona.edu/~chalmers/pap...apers/ncc2.html At the bottom of the link above, you will find titles on books regarding this, if you are interested to do some more reading.

[Taosaur]

Hmm...I would say Evangel has made the most thoughtful reply so far. IMO, everything is conditioned, but nothing is determined. Some things are conditioned more strongly than others, but human beings are conditioned mainly by our habits of perception, which are well within our power to observe, know, and change. Even physical "laws" are only ways we have invented of describing the world--to move beyond them we invent new (accurate) descriptions that allow for different possibilities. Most of what determines our moment-to-moment actions originates in us, individually or as a species; we are the determiners as well as the determined. To escape fate we need only take responsibility for directing it, as one conscious element of the universe as a whole.

[LokisBtch]

You all have some really great points...from the perspective of theology human beings do have free will, which renders them "higher than the angels", and it's explained kind of like this: the purpose of a human's existence is to become deified, as in one in be-ing (awareness) with God...this means that a human should try to be who they are under the will of God...but they can choose to not be who they are through the will of God...like a tree is a tree, and because it does not have free will, it exists in perfect harmony with be-ing, it plays the role of tree exactly as God wills it to be so...a human, with free will, struggles to align their will, clouded by physical matter, tangible life, HORMONES, to the will of God...and the idea is to reach the insight that one's true self (Oracle of Delphi,"Know thyself"), and the will of one's true self, is where the will of God actually lies...so if your quest is discover what the will of God is, listen to your own true self, because the voice is one in that meeting place...human being the meeting place between heaven and earth...in my opinion, open to argument, free will is the cause of mankind's chaos, their suffering, free will is why wars happen, not because God chooses that for us, but because human's choose to stray from the will of God, to utilize their free will, to choose for themselves wrong and right...but the point is that we have to choice...we can choose to be human, or we can choose to be God manifest, by CHOOSING to align our will to the will of God...to let God determine instead of ourselves...but this is all still an act of free will.... And no I am not a crazy Christian fanatic...I'm a pagan-gypsy-pirate music girl who likes to talk philosophy and theology, anthropology, and anything else mystical...y? Because creation is...not creation was...blah blah blah SMILE PLEASE

[Awaken]

Originally posted by LokisBtch You all have some really great points...from the perspective of theology human beings do have free will, which renders them \"higher than the angels\", and it's explained kind of like this: the purpose of a human's existence is to become deified, as in one in be-ing (awareness) with God...this means that a human should try to be who they are under the will of God...but they can choose to not be who they are through the will of God...like a tree is a tree, and because it does not have free will, it exists in perfect harmony with be-ing, it plays the role of tree exactly as God wills it to be so...a human, with free will, struggles to align their will, clouded by physical matter, tangible life, HORMONES, to the will of God...and the idea is to reach the insight that one's true self (Oracle of Delphi,\"Know thyself\"), and the will of one's true self, is where the will of God actually lies...so if your quest is discover what the will of God is, listen to your own true self, because the voice is one in that meeting place...human being the meeting place between heaven and earth...in my opinion, open to argument, free will is the cause of mankind's chaos, their suffering, free will is why wars happen, not because God chooses that for us, but because human's choose to stray from the will of God, to utilize their free will, to choose for themselves wrong and right...but the point is that we have to choice...we can choose to be human, or we can choose to be God manifest, by CHOOSING to align our will to the will of God...to let God determine instead of ourselves...but this is all still an act of free will.... And no I am not a crazy Christian fanatic...I'm a pagan-gypsy-pirate music girl who likes to talk philosophy and theology, anthropology, and anything else mystical...y? *Because creation is...not creation was...blah blah blah *SMILE PLEASE I like it. Never thought you were crazy for one second

[LewisM]

I would define 'free will' as the freedom to do what you want, not the freedom to disobey the laws of physics. Would anyone dispute that we can do anything within the laws of physics? Everybody here has the freedom to go and murder someone. However, the pendulum will swing back, and they will be punished (whether the punishment is just or not is up to you). We have the freedom to cure AIDS (assuming a cure is within the laws of physics ie. possible) however, no one has the cure at the moment. The people in medieval times had the freedom to hop in an aeroplane and fly across continents. All someone had to do was think about forces and the properties of air, ie. invent the aeroplane. Just musings... not a concrete opinion. An interesting philosopher once said that 'if we knew the direction, type and position of every atom in the universe, then we could tell the future and the past to an infinite degree' or something. Interesting. EDIT: I mispelled medieval.

[CT]

Originally posted by LewisM An interesting philosopher once said that 'if we knew the direction, type and position of every atom in the universe, then we could tell the future and the past to an infinite degree' or something. Interesting. basicly what i was trying to say

[Amethyst Star]

I believe in Predestined Free Will. I believe there is an omnipotent God who knows everything you and I have and will do. However, I believe that we make our own choices. God just knows ahead of time what we're going to choose. -Amé

[bradybaker]

God just knows ahead of time what we're going to choose.[/b] If God knows ahead of time what we're going to choose, then there's only one choice you can make. It's not free will, just an illusion of it.

[Amethyst Star]

For me it's like watching a movie I've seen before. I know what's going to happen, but the characters (in essence) still make their own choices. We all have a choice, as Matrix-ish as that may sound, and we continually make choices up until we die. God has the knowledge but we have the control. God can influence us, but we ultimately make our own decisions. -Amé

[bradybaker]

Amethyst Star: Either way, the movie is still going to end the same way and the actions of the characters will be the same. PS. In The Matrix Reloaded, Neo and the rest of the gang had no free will. It was the Oracle who said "you aren't here to make the decision, the decision has already been made. You're just here to understand why you made that decision."

[ThomasELEN]

Free Will and Pre-destination are the two extremes. Nothing in the universe ever follows the extremes. If anything, the universe takes the middle path to all phenomena. Whatever the true answer is, we'll never know until we die. But I think it's a middle ground between the two since everything else in the universe is a middle ground between any two extremes.

[LewisM]

Bradybaker, if someone else knows what you will choose, but doesn't alter your life in any way, are they removing your free will? If I were to follow Amethyst's argument, I would say that Free Will is only scrutinised when you are not the one making the choices.

[bradybaker]

Bradybaker, if someone else knows what you will choose, but doesn't alter your life in any way, are they removing your free will?[/b] Yes, of course they are. If someone knows the course of your life in advance, that proves that your life is predetermined. The fact it doesn't alter your life in any way only creates the illusion of free will.

[Submerged]

Originally posted by bradybaker I recently finished watching Waking Life for the 8th or 9th time and as always was deeply intrigued by the discussion involving free will. On one hand, if God knows everything that is going to happen then where do we get off thinking that we can chose our own path? On the other, we know that all physical systems are governed by basic physical laws. Even if we \"choose\" to lift our arm, that entire process is governed by chemical, electrical and physical laws. So it seems that the Big Bang set up the initial conditions and the rest of history is just the playing out of these various subatomic particles. Either way, there isn't much room left for free will. I look forward to reading your input. the theory that god controls everything we do is called Calvinism. I believe that God doesnt make us do something, he can just see what choices we would make in a given circumstance and adjust the outcome to match whatever plan hes coming up with. Which i suppose could be seen as controlling us through giving us the exact right cirumstances in order to "make" us choose one choice, indirectly. Wait, what point was i trying to make again?

[Submerged]

Originally posted by bradybaker Bradybaker, if someone else knows what you will choose, but doesn't alter your life in any way, are they removing your free will? Yes, of course they are. If someone knows the course of your life in advance, that proves that your life is predetermined. The fact it doesn't alter your life in any way only creates the illusion of free will.[/b] I dont agree. With free will it is all about perception. If someone out there knows my entire life and how it plays out, but doesnt make any difference to it as they would without the knowledge, tehn i am not effected. The illusion of free will is free will. You think you have a choice of what shoes you will buy next? No you dont. Your decision of what shoes to like have been created from a lifetime of social conditioning from advertisers and such. But since you dont see them directly controlling you, you assume you have free will.

[bradybaker]

Originally posted by Submerged You think you have a choice of what shoes you will buy next? No you dont. Your decision of what shoes to like have been created from a lifetime of social conditioning from advertisers and such. But since you dont see them directly controlling you, you assume you have free will. Thank you, that's an excellent explanation of how we do not have free will. But it's much more complex than that. I agree that the perception of free will does exist, but actual free will is non-existant.

[Belisarius]

If a God exists outside you, then not only does he know what you do, but he made you with the knowledge of what you would do. He also created the circumstances surrounding you that govern what you do, especially if you consider that every choice is made based on past experiences and chemical reactions in the brain. There can only be ONE will in the universe, and that is the will that created it. If I am the will then I have freedom, if I am not, then I am but a machine, less than a slave. So soliphism is the most hopeful philosophy, or some sort of conscious unity God. I tend to think that religion is the product of rational thought, humans think that everything must have a cause, and therefore an effect, a purpose. Including the universe, but if there is nothing outside of the universe, what can it effect? Therefore we produce God as that which caused the universe, and ourselves as what the universe effects.(I have to go, but I have a thought in process, I'll get back to you!)