Thread: Math

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

If I copied P on my computer and pasted it next to PPP, will I be able to get PP by ONLY pasting NEXT TO 'PPP'?

No.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

But the thing is that the numbers aren't arbitrary. The numbers actually have stark representation. That is why they are universal. Whether you call it "2" or you call it "tomato" 2 x 2 = 'tomato' x 'tomato'. Just because you change the label doesn't mean the math changes. It's not subjective.

The only way you're going to come up with some other outcome is if, while changing the label, you change the value of the label. You're not advocating doing that, in this, so the equations will stay the same.

Yes they are.

Labels are just labels, so then you can mean whatever you like wih

5/16

or

3% 7

or

15 + 6 * 12

Originally Posted by Xei

Uh... no. They independently came up with calculus, a branch of mathematics, not the whole of mathematics itself. The foundations of mathematics came later with developments in Set Theory, and sparked a bit of a crisis in which mathematics could find no logical framework to describe all of mathematics and justify the framework within the framework; it hasn't been resolved, actually. I think the current foundation is still Set Theory for the most part, but there are various assumptions that you just have to make.

Anyway, I don't really understand the point of the thread really. Mathematics may well have some paradoxes, but this isn't one of them as far as I can tell. Take for example,

|| + ||| = |||||
2 + 3 = 5

2 is just the arabic way of writing || because writing out loads of sticks is a bit irritating.

You could say, ok, let's represent || with the arabic symbol 9, instead. Then we have,

9 + 3 = 5
or
|| + ||| = |||||

Which is completely correct, considering that 9 means ||, 3 means |||, and 5 means |||||.

Again, not talking numbers here.

Let me try a different example:

+ = ?

Is that possible?

Well no.

But in math it can because of the use of labels/symbols.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

No.

lul

But in math it can because of the use of labels/symbols.

Sure it can... but we learn a universal set of symbols so that we can easily have equations, interpolations, proofs, etc.

Saying 2+2!=4 is taking a step backward in the fields of math and science.

Not if it is true.

But in math it can because of the use of labels/symbols.

How can you make that possible with symbols? Please give a worked example, because I really don't know what you're trying to get across. You can never make two objects added to three objects give one object in mathematics unless you make a mistake by dividing by zero or something.

This will make sense to me in an hour to which I will return here to explain myself.

Originally Posted by Xei

How can you make that possible with symbols? Please give a worked example, because I really don't know what you're trying to get across. You can never make two objects added to three objects give one object in mathematics unless you make a mistake by dividing by zero or something.

'adding' is an operation represented by the symbol '+'. replace '+' with another symbol

2 + 3 = 5 -> change of symbols results in -> 2 XEI 3 = 1

you can choose youself what the operation 'XEI' does. you could define operation XEI as taking two operands and always resulting into 1.

No, Chayba.

This is a case of numbers relating to Real-World objects.

Actual things.

ok a real world example would be adding 2 drops of water to 3 drops of water will result in one big drop of water

I suppose.

But the matter is still the same.

Six grams with six grams will never be four grams.

unless mixing 6 grams of this with 6gram of that results in a chemical reaction that evaporates 8 grams and gives you 4 grams.. happens all the time

Six moles of water molecules plus another six moles will never give four moles.

But really I still have no idea what's going on..?

Well in math how do you express actual meaning without symbols?

And with those symbols you can only correlate them to reality.

So if math can violate reality from one perspective isn't it subjective?

Symbols are just an artistic human representation of the objective truth, they are of no mathematical consequence in themselves... they're just blobs of ink. But I don't understand how maths can violate reality ever... if you get such a result then you've done something wrong.

Then explain to me the concept of "two" without using "two" or any other nubmer or synonym for the word "two".

Well according to one famous proposal for the foundation of mathematics, one can regard 'two' as 'the set of all things with an aspect of two about them'; so two means two trees and two men and two @s ('@@') and two Jim Carreys and basically anything twoey.

Sorry; What does 'two' mean now?

Umm... 'the set of all sets containing two members', according to Frege.

But then what does "two" mean?

The set of all sets containing two members.

Worthless goo bags.

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

Sorry; What does 'two' mean now?

Originally Posted by Xei

Umm... 'the set of all sets containing two members', according to Frege.

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

But then what does "two" mean?

Originally Posted by Xei

The set of all sets containing two members.

LOL

Well, to anwser the original question, yes you can.

Essentially, you need to have mod(1), which is trivial. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modular_arithmetic

Basically, there is a clock with only 1 on it, and your rotating it six times. Hence the anwser is 1.

But in math it can because of the use of labels/symbols.

Seismosaur I'm disappointed with you. Again, look up modular arithmetic, as all your doing is that, which is perfectly fine in mathematics.

Numbers have been proved to be consistent.

Well in math how do you express actual meaning without symbols?

There something called abstract, look it up.

And with those symbols you can only correlate them to reality.

Again, look up abstract. Maths has little to do with reality, well pure maths.

So if math can violate reality from one perspective isn't it subjective?

Math does not violate reality, seriously please learn some maths before talking about it. Also, maths is based on proofs, which is proberly the most objective thing ever.

Seriously, I hate it when people think that logic is some kind of picnic. Well, atleast nobody on this thread has said they use logic, which occurs in R/S alot. Hence, they our proberly not.

FAIL.

I don't use logic and grammar. However, that wasen't the point. Anyway, English is not my strong subject, mathematics is.