Thread: does anyone else think this?

Originally Posted by Sandform

A list of claims that should be easy to prove.

Shamans

Do you have knowledge what a shaman is? What do you want to proof about shamanism and tell me how it is easy to prove?

goddamn I hate this thread.

Originally Posted by Omicron

goddamn I hate this thread.

Fucking sexy hair.

Originally Posted by ClouD

Fucking sexy hair.

Fucking sexy lips.

Originally Posted by Unelias

Do you have knowledge what a shaman is? What do you want to proof about shamanism and tell me how it is easy to prove?

According to Carlos Castenada Shamans can communicate with beings "beyond the gate" and you can actually be physically taken to that place. You can also have these creatures physically come into being on our planet.


Shamans supposedly often communicate with these spiritual worlds etc.

He even goes on to say that shamans can live forever if they figure out how to do it. His story about the one who could change his form and "trade" energy with other shamans to live forever was just ridiculous.

In other words, shamans are supposed to have supernatural powers that are based in reality, and not solely inside their insane heads, and these powers are entirely testable, especially their supposed ability to tell the future and communicate with spirits.


I blame Uri gellar for the continued 10% of your brain myth. He used that as his "explanation" for his fictional supernatural abilities for a while.

Originally Posted by Sandform

According to Carlos Castenada Shamans can communicate with beings "beyond the gate" and you can actually be physically taken to that place. You can also have these creatures physically come into being on our planet.

Carlos Castaneda is quite "interesting" person. Still take a notice that his form of shamanism is (supposedly) that of American Indians. In northern shamanism, which I practice, there is no mention what so ever that you physically taken or "draw something out of there". The whole journey is all about spiritual.

He even goes on to say that shamans can live forever if they figure out how to do it. His story about the one who could change his form and "trade" energy with other shamans to live forever was just ridiculous.

Never heard anything like that unless it was meant as symbolic spiritual existance, which can be seen that your shamanistic spirit moves to Ylinen or Alinen after you depart from this world ( upper and lower planes). You are right, that sound ridicilous. However, that is not my view of shamanism, that's his
.

In other words, shamans are supposed to have supernatural powers that are based in reality, and not solely inside their insane heads, and these powers are entirely testable, especially their supposed ability to tell the future and communicate with spirits.

Shaman powers are not seen as supernatural. They are seen as basic human power that selected few carry out in the society. In past times, being elected as shaman was not usually joy because it brought down a great responsibility. I still don't understand how do you "entirely test" communication with spirit world that shaman do? Please do tell me.

Also do you have some kind of misleading idea that "telling the future" just pops out in your head. Think it more like that you dream and you have to interpret your dreamsigns in order to have messages.

But I am really looking forward how do you scientifically research spirit journey, especially when shaman do not do it for fun.

To the brain usage : still science hasn't totally found out what parts of brain are used for certain feats i.e Tibetan monks controlling their body to the limits. Also to the glial cells, they are still kind of weird concept since although their major purpose is to support brain and bring nutrition, they might have bigger role in signal transmitting. Since, at least what I remember, they produce myelin, which is speeds up impulses movement in fibers. I am not sure about this, I gotta look for some books, but I think newer studies have pointed towards that glial cells can produce neurotransmitters.

This all just popped into my mind because I recalled an article about Einsteins' brains having very great amount of glial cells. But well theory is a theory.

Like I said Unelias, if anything of what your saying is not merely inside your head, it would be testable. If it actually effects reality, and YOU can see the effects, then anyone can see the effects.

These "spirits" that shamans are talking to would be testable, in the book Castaneda wrote he had these spirits actually become real beings on Earth.

How do you test if they are real? You get them to bring more of those little "spirits" out while people stand by with recording equipment and take note of what is going on.

Further more people were literally said to have DISAPEARED into the place beyond the gate, and the shaman WENT there to bring them back. Obviously if the shaman can go there, he knows how to do it.

Why is your form of shamanism "more" shaman like than Don Juan's? Hmm? That form of shamanism is obviously false. The claims HE makes are testable, and the spirits HE talked about are testable.


Obviously I don't know anything about your form of shamanism, and I wasn't talking about your shamanism, but If you have claims about spirits, spirit walks, telling the future, etc, I'm sure there are various things I could point to and say, hey look, if your claims were true then why does this [not] happen. Of course that is assuming spirits can affect reality.

The rituals in Castaneda's book included taking hallucinogenic drugs. So, I don't really take much of the claims he made seriously.

So, obviously, I wasn't referring to your form of shamanism, because your shamanism isn't the only type of shamanism.

Originally Posted by Sandform

Like I said Unelias, if anything of what your saying is not merely inside your head, it would be testable. If it actually effects reality, and YOU can see the effects, then anyone can see the effects.

But in case of shamanism everything is manipulated through altered mind states i.e trancestate. That is core of shamanism around the globe, even if there are different form of shamanism. Shaman is the person who has the means of doing it. Duh.

Originally Posted by Sandform

These "spirits" that shamans are talking to would be testable, in the book Castaneda wrote he had these spirits actually become real beings on Earth.

The problem is this : is Castaneda reliable source of information? Many have criticized him that he has made many things up and things he tells about are not actual traditional shamanism of that area.

Spirits are usually seen in shamanism as beings that exist everywhere but upper and lower realms are planes that are inhabided only by spirits. Therefore, humans live in the middle realm, that could be seen as materialistic plane.

Originally Posted by Sandform

How do you test if they are real? You get them to bring more of those little "spirits" out while people stand by with recording equipment and take note of what is going on.

They don't come up. Shaman goes where they are to the upper or lower planes. They are not "spirits" you seem to think as ghosts or whatsoever. They are rarely even considered as beings that can be seen, usually they can be felt. Though through spiritual developement shaman is seen to be able to sense spirits in physical realm too.

I understand your viewpoint since usually western idea of talking with spirits is to call them before humans. Shaman however does not call spirits to the middle plane, he wents to them to the spirit realm. This is quite universal in all forms of shamanism.

Originally Posted by Sandform

Further more people were literally said to have DISAPEARED into the place beyond the gate, and the shaman WENT there to bring them back. Obviously if the shaman can go there, he knows how to do it.

This has no universality in general shamanism around the globe. Most likely his romanization and attempt to spark something grand mysticism.

Shaman travels to astral planes and guides lost spirits to their right places so the balance and equilibrium in the world stays in order. For example illness is seen that wrong spirits have infested wrong places. Shaman goes to spirit realm and gets more spirits to achive energy balance within body or guides ill spirit out. What might have started the belief that person physically disappears is the idea that persons spirit can be taken by spirits or lost. In that case shaman travels to seek and return it.

In other words : shaman acts in spirit realm while in spirit journey, not in physical realm.

Originally Posted by Sandform

Why is your form of shamanism "more" shaman like than Don Juan's? Hmm? That form of shamanism is obviously false. The claims HE makes are testable, and the spirits HE talked about are testable.

In that case you can correct your previous statement as Don Juanistic Shamans. That doesn't apply to general shamanism through. I don't know how long tradition his shamanism has, is it even the traditional native shamanism of indian tribes or what. But things you have now written he has said, does not apply in northern shamanism or to many other shamanistic beliefs. Shamanism is just a word to round up traditions that have similar forms everywhere around the globe. Still the northern shamanism has gone for millenias and has coined the term shaman. I don't think it is anyway superior, but I regard Castaneda with suspicion. He might have lied to get his books to sell, simple as that.

Obviously I don't know anything about your form of shamanism, and I wasn't talking about your shamanism, but If you have claims about spirits, spirit walks, telling the future, etc, I'm sure there are various things I could point to and say, hey look, if your claims were true then why does this [not] happen. Of course that is assuming spirits can affect reality.

Well I doubt you know much about shamanism in general either. I understand your attitude though if Castaneda really tells things like that. They seem to me exaggarated and mystified at their best. I haven't read much about him or his books but I sure will, this sparked my interest.

Yet I am very keen to know how do you would record scientifically spirit travel.

The rituals in Castaneda's book included taking hallucinogenic drugs. So, I don't really take much of the claims he made seriously.

Drug usage is quite common in all continents. The northern tradition emphasizes on drumming, singing and dancing to induce trancestate and drugs aren't seen very essential. Some herbs are though sometimes used, it depends a lot

I gotta get myself known this person though, I have heard much about him but somehow I have never felt like reading his books. Maybe I gotta know to see what he writes.

So, obviously, I wasn't referring to your form of shamanism, because your shamanism isn't the only type of shamanism.[/QUOTE]
No but since shamanism is very wide term and is hard to use without rough generalisations, I felt I have to make this post. So, now I know that you are talking about Castaneda so I have nothing else to talk about, since it doesn't concern me or core shamanism this is why I always sharpen that I practice northern shamanism since it is already a lot more accurate. Of course there are many version of it too.

Shamanism is probably one of the most fasinating things to study. . I think (I may be mistaken) that north american aborigonals used smoke huts and tobbaco for the same purposes. I've also used a type of tibeten bowl. You use a mallet to hit the bowl and it will vibrate your whole arm, and move through your whole body and eventually comes to a halt and the vibrations 'hit' you in the chest.

South american/mexican shamanism seems to be the more well known type. Ingesting psychedellic drugs, typically psyilocybn, aminta muscaria, and a type of brew than the amazonan shamans make, I cant spell it so im not going to try but it contains DMT.

Terrence Mckenna has a lot to say about shamanism. If you go to deoxy they have a bunch of videos. Try to avoid the ones with the psychedelic music beucase you can't even make out what he says...

Yeh well that's why it is quite fascinating. It exist almost everywhere and shares similarities ( for example, three-planar world view exists almost in every form of it) yet there are huge regional and racial differences and distinctive traditions although for me it is not a religion, many consider it as oldest religion in the planet.