Mathematical Proof of Fate

[bradybaker]

Hey everybody, this is my first new topic since DV has been back up and running. Hope you all find it interesting. Just a little idea that I came up with about a year ago. Mathematical Proof of Fate: Ok, here goes. Pretend that you are rolling a die. Initially you may assume that there are 6 possible outcomes of this action. Either a 1,2,3,4,5 or 6 will be face up when the die comes to a stop. However, in reality there are an infinite number of outcomes. Each time you roll the die the factors that effect the outcome are different. ie. The first time you roll it could bounce twice, roll 4 times, be exposed to 0.03 newtons of friction and have an air pressure surrounding it of 101.134 kPa. The second time you roll, it could bounce 5 times, roll once, slide half an inch, be exposed to 0.4 newtons of friction, and have an air pressuse of 101.342 surrounding it. The point I'm trying to make is that there are an infinite number of ways that the die can reach its final outcome. Hope you're all still following. Now, here comes the math (it isn't too involved). For the purpose of this post, the symbol ~ is going to represent infinity, because its the closest thing to the actual symbol of infinity. I've already shown that there are an infinite number of possible outcomes for a single event, but in actuality, only one of those events do happen. Therefore the chance of that one event occuring is 1/~. However, we all know from high school algebra that 1/~ is equivalent to 0. Therefore, the chance of that event occuring is 0, zip, notta, none. But obviously the event did take place, we saw it take place. Therefore, the event had to have been predetermined to take place at all. Questions, criticisms?

[docKnubis]

can i get an order of ~pies please now was that predertermind or was it now is it possible that i could i dont know order ~/~ pies but i like dice a little salty but quite good no you didnt change my opinion on fate i beleve in alternete realitys like the if your sleeping an the alarm goes off. for each action you choose to do there will be a alternate reality like snooze would be one ignoring it would be on and geting up would be one this is only 3 out of ~ possiblilitys so there are ~ realitys

[spoon]

Originally posted by bradybaker I've already shown that there are an infinite number of possible outcomes for a single event, but in actuality, only one of those events do happen. Therefore the chance of that one event occuring is 1/~. However, we all know from high school algebra that 1/~ is equivalent to 0. Therefore, the chance of that event occuring is 0, zip, notta, none. Hey brady, few questions. i'm only just catching up on highschool maths in uni now (I was lazy and took "stupid maths" at highschool) could you explain that to me? Wouldn't 1/~ only be equivalent to 0 when you assumed one of infinitie's values could be 0? There has to be an event so it'd be 1/~ (where ~ is infinity from 1->). So then its just statistics. 1/6 for the "rational" outcomes for your example, 1/(x>6) for the rest "not-so-rational" ones (I guess the dice COULD break in two and somehow have a pattern of breakage that looked like any other number, or an elephant could appear and sit on it) I'm not up to speed on the ol' maths, but I'm tryin! Tell yah what, I wont vote till someone explains it to me -spoon (is never going to get into a maths degree if he doesn't learn)

[LucidApple]

Originally posted by Bradybaker But obviously the event did take place, we saw it take place. Therefore, the event had to have been predetermined to take place at all. you make it way more complicated then necessary Bradybaker. what is most important is that a dice is purely cause and effect and not choice from infinite possibilities! That means its a determinative process at each moment of time when the impuls of the dice meets resistense (under a certain angle). And the balance that is found in that process is the outcome. What you forget is that if i would built a robot that precisely throws in a shielded room for air changes. And he would throw precisely under the same angle each time with the same impuls, you dont have infinite possibilities but the outcome would everytime be the same. that is if all other influences stay the same, like air resistense, temp, surface resistense etc. The Predetermination only is possible if cause and effect are logicly related to the moment now! Now is when the action takes place. So you can forget about the infinite possibilities its the circumstances, also called related info of the action that takes place within a certain time frame. Because that demands how the dice will follow its path and where it will stop etc, circumstances. So its not about possibilities but its about impuls and resistense settings related to time. If it was about possibilities you could throw a dice and on its way it would randomly choose its speed. or the air resistense would randomly change etc etc well that is not at all how it is. Its all cause and effect and related to time and all about the settings/circumstances. so simply said..you say infinite outcomes...but for each throw you dont have infinite outcomes but only one outcome eachtime! Witch is completely related to the settings from with the throwing of the dice take place. C my throwing dice robot example. Then its easy to c why its determination and predetermination is possible if you have all info. Because all is related to cause and effect.

[LucidApple]

To say it in short, you dont need those infinite possibilties to show that throwing a dice is a determinative process because the settings from witch the throwing take place make it a purely cause and effect thing already. That i ment to say lol

[Stalker]

There's not an infinite amount of possible rolls, only a finite amount. Sure, the probability of any specific one to happen is 1/x where x is the number of different ones (assuming the surrounding is constant). Since x is such a high number you could say it approaches infinity and then 1/x approaches zero. That only means it's (practically) impossible to repeat the exakt same roll.

[Turkeh]

Stalker is pretty much dead on right with his point although I would like to add something. But obviously the event did take place, we saw it take place. Therefore, the event had to have been predetermined to take place at all. [/b] That makes no sense since earlier on you tell us there is an infinite number of possibilities for each event to occur therefore the chance they will occur in the exact same way was is infinitely small however when you add all the possibilities of how the dice rolls they become equal to 1 as such the roll occurs in one of many possible ways.

[Haz]

wow i'm gonna have to ask my maths teacher about this (were close friends)

[ThomasELEN]

...1/~ is equivalent to 0[/b] Hey Bradybaker. I think there could be a reason to explain why an event happened even when it's supposed to be equal to zero. I think it could be because you were using an approximation. The chances of that one event happening are very small since there is an infinite amount of possibilities. But that one chance divided by infinity isn't exactly equal to zero. It's a very close approximation. (let '~' mean approximately equal to) 1/infinity ~ 0. True 1/infinity = 0. False Setting the two equal to zero is fuling out that any even will ever happen. Taking this deeper, if 1/infinity =0, then technically, that means it's impossible for any event to happen. Having a zero chance to any event happening means that we wouldn't exist. Thank goodness that this universe wasn't created on approximations, but exact, detailed precision.

[ThomasELEN]

Hey Spoon, I didn't see your post before I posted mine. You deserve credit for saying that 1/infinity was an approximation. Sorry 'bout that.

[DrumCorpsAlum]

How about this, you flip a normal coin 100 times. 75 times the coin lands on heads, 25 times, tails. You flip it again... What is the chance that it will land on tails? No, it's not 1/4. It's 1/2. There are 2 sides to the coin. The outcome was random.

[imported_Berserk_Exodus]

Fate from existing conditions prior to your existence is completely true and evident. ^ There are other factors involved in that flipping of the coin. Even if the universe is probablistic, whatever outcome from those probabilities will come out eventually. Anyways, probability has nothing to do with fate. Free will is non-existent because there are factors already in play in opposition to the ego which will effect it and it will act accordingly to how it was created.

[Stevehattan]

Very well said Lucidapple. Anyway, it's my belief that the universe could not possibly be probablistic. However, since on an atomic level scientists can't detect the exact location/speed of a particle without influencing that location/speed, they have to settle for caculating probabilities when working with small particles, though that doesn't mean particles work at random. If they did, then there WOULD be infinite possibilities to every scenario, but true randomness can't exist. Even when flipping the coin, the spin, height, and impact of the coin determine what side it's going to land on, but our brains aren't capable of making those calculations so it seems "random". You can't have an effect without a cause.

[Tsen]

Most of the universe can be explained in cause-and-effect, at least on a large level. In the example of rolling a die, it is. However, on a very small scale there are still 'random' occurances. Perhaps in a few years, maybe a few decades, we will remove the uncertainty from this, but for the moment there are still particles that defy reason. When performing certain experiments with electrons, it was found that an electron's position is RANDOM. It cannot be determined, as far as we know, by any measurements that we make without actually finding it. And once we've found it, we know it's position only because we have it in our grasp, not because we've predicted it. So randomness does exist. Just had to show some people the truth. Now, moving on: 1/~ is not 0. Once you've been trough a calculus class, you'll understand this. 1/~ is very small, in fact it is infinitely small. But not 0. Thinking about the actual math, it makes sense. You can split 1 into as many pieces as you want, and you'll still have some left. Here's a simple way to put it: 1/~ multiplied by ~ = 1. Correct? 0 multiplied by ~ = 0. Get it?

[Stalker]

Originally posted by Tsen Now, moving on: 1/~ is not 0. Once you've been trough a calculus class, you'll understand this. 1/~ is very small, in fact it is infinitely small. But not 0. Thinking about the actual math, it makes sense. You can split 1 into as many pieces as you want, and you'll still have some left. Here's a simple way to put it: 1/~ multiplied by ~ = 1. Correct? 0 multiplied by ~ = 0. Get it? That mostly makes me wonder what calculus class you took. (With ~ as infinity) 0*~ is unknown 1/~ * ~ = ~/~ which is unknown x/~ where x is any real number is 0. All these are border values (or whatever the correct translation is) because you can't really take infinity and put in the equation. You instead take 'a' and let that approach infinity. So to be precise: x is just a real variable here x/a is unknown when a approaches 0 0*a is unknown when a approaches infinity a/a is unknown when a approaches infinity x/a approaches 0 when a approaches infinity

[Stevehattan]

Actually, I agree with Tsen's mathematics for the most part, but isn't it possible that "1/~*~ = ~", instead of equalling 1 again? It wouldn't be the case if "~" was a set number, but it seems like anything times infinity should equal infinity, unless infinity was a finite number. Also Tsen: when you say randomness exists, do you mean perceived randomness (when we don't know what the reason is for something happening, so we can't predict it, but deep down there's a logical reason), or true randomness (something happens for no reason/a cause can have more than one possible effect)? I just don't see how the latter can exist. If a cause can have more than one possible effect, how does it decide which effect to cause? There's got to be a reason behind which it chooses, otherwise how could it possibly choose, unless it chooses all of the possible paths at once, each in an alternate universe.

[Stalker]

If you get ~/~ then you can't say anything about it. A simple example: 2a/a. Now let a approach infinity and you get ~/~. Now it would be a big mistake to say that it equals 1 or ~. You just have to go back to the original expression and simplify it to get 2. This is basic math.

[ThomasELEN]

x/~ where x is any real number is 0[/b] This isn't exactly true. You let the denominator approach infinity, but it's still an approximation. Equating that to zero only brings up the same argument already stated. any real number/infinity is approximately equal to zero but not identically equal to zero.

[Stevehattan]

I think that ~/~ has to equal ~ (just keep in mind that ~ is not an ordinary number with a set value, it's endless). Obviously ~/~ can't equal 1, because that would imply that ~ has a set value and stops dividing itself at some point, thus not reaching an infinitely small number. But, "~/~=infinitesimal" doesn't make sense either, because that would be assuming that ~ (the ~ on the left, at least) has a set value, which it doesn't. Think of it, dividing infinity would be like trying to build a wall that divides the universe in half, but the wall would have nowhere to end! Even if you were able to divide the universe into two peices, each would be infinitely large as well! So, I say infinity isn't divisible at all and ~/~=~. It's like subtracting numbers from infinity; no matter how many you subtract, ~ never shrinks. In terms of something like 1/~*~=1, I don't know about that. Of course if you switched any real number with the "~" symbol, the equation would be perfectly sensible, but infinity just keeps going forever, so I think 1/~*~=~. Anything times or plus infinity should equal infinity, so since 1/~ isn't quite zero, multiplying 1/~ by ~ should equal ~. Also, 0*~ = 0. No matter how many nothings you stack on eachother, even an infinite amount, it still adds up to nothing. This is just what I was taught, anyway....

[Stalker]

Originally posted by Stevehattan This is just what I was taught, anyway.... I'm not saying that those are how I think it should/would be. That is how it is, we had these kind of calculations in the first math course in university.

[Turkeh]

Originally posted by Stalker I'm not saying that those are how I think it should/would be. That is how it is, we had these kind of calculations in the first math course in university. You are quite correct x/x = 1 unless x=0 Stevehattan you are saying x/x = x which is quite obviously wrong.

[Tsen]

What I meant about randomness was percieved randomness. At least for the moment. As is, when we get down to the quantum level, we are unable to predict most anything. Hopefully within a few years we'll be able to understand it, but nobody knows for certain. So, we still have a random entity in the world, but we don't know if it will stay that way for very long.

[Stalker]

Originally posted by ThomasELEN x/~ where x is any real number is 0 This isn't exactly true. You let the denominator approach infinity, but it's still an approximation. Equating that to zero only brings up the same argument already stated. any real number/infinity is approximately equal to zero but not identically equal to zero.[/b] Lim a->inf x/a = 0 Not easy to write mathematical text here.

[Tsen]

Yeah, the limit as a approaches infinity of x/a is 0, but as is implied by the 'limit' function, it never reaches 0. Anyway, you officially have permission to slap me, Stalker, for what I said earlier. I have no clue how I managed to forget that much of my Calc class...I mean, I still remember most all of the derivatives and integrals, but I've forgotten most of the theoretical junk. I can assure you that I did take a good Calc class, I'm just forgetful. Ever had one of those moments where you're blazing through an assignment and then you realize that you've forgotten how to long-devide? 'Cuz I have. Stevehattan, ~/~ is not ~. I don't even know how you could have arrived at that conclusion... Hey, look at it this way. Do you have a graphing calculator? Well, even if you don't, this is easy. Graph this: f(x)=x/x You should get a graph with a horizontal line at y=1. So how, logically, could this line suddenly jump to ~?

[bradybaker]

Let function f(a) = 1/a. As a -> infinity, lim (a->infinity) 1/a does not exist. Get your math straight guys. You're also forgetting a huge point here. Infinity is a concept, not a number.