Thread: Reality Is Not Perception

Shall I tell you?
Really?! Without any explanation at all?!
AT ALL?
WITHOUT ANY AT ALL?!
I don't have the time to explain it all, but I MIGHT if you PM me.
You'll be disappointed and think I'm talking about what everyone else says, but that's what everyone always says, Right?
Those are the answers you have to look at to get the right one. Not those cognitive ones like- "Whatever you want it to be! *starry eyes*"

I'LL TELL YOU! But as long as you all promise one thing... you don't say that I'm wrong or that there is no "proof" to my claim. The proof is there, you will only see it if you THINK without any cognitive thought at all, no "thinking outside the box" or brainstorming. Think simply, as in... think as simple as you can... No... Not like that, I mean, start with something simple like a water-drop then go to a wet window-pane, then go to a river, then go to a continent, then the earth, then every planet in our solar system and you'll realise that you're back where you started. (Don't go past where our telescopes or microscopes can see though... that's a whole topic itself although, it wont do you any harm to go a bit less than that though.)

PROMISE not to shout or ask why until you know?
OK!

Spoiler for The meaning of everything, as far as you can see.:

An attempt to reach perfect efficiency.

All I can say is that the human perception of reality is distorted from its true image. So obviously reality is independent from perception.

Originally Posted by Jimmehboi

Shall I tell you?
Really?! Without any explanation at all?!
AT ALL?
WITHOUT ANY AT ALL?!
I don't have the time to explain it all, but I MIGHT if you PM me.
You'll be disappointed and think I'm talking about what everyone else says, but that's what everyone always says, Right?
Those are the answers you have to look at to get the right one. Not those cognitive ones like- "Whatever you want it to be! *starry eyes*"

I'LL TELL YOU! But as long as you all promise one thing... you don't say that I'm wrong or that there is no "proof" to my claim. The proof is there, you will only see it if you THINK without any cognitive thought at all, no "thinking outside the box" or brainstorming. Think simply, as in... think as simple as you can... No... Not like that, I mean, start with something simple like a water-drop then go to a wet window-pane, then go to a river, then go to a continent, then the earth, then every planet in our solar system and you'll realise that you're back where you started. (Don't go past where our telescopes or microscopes can see though... that's a whole topic itself although, it wont do you any harm to go a bit less than that though.)

PROMISE not to shout or ask why until you know?
OK!

Spoiler for The meaning of everything, as far as you can see.:

An attempt to reach perfect efficiency.

Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're speaking of. Are you talking about the meaning of life?

Originally Posted by Exhalent

All I can say is that the human perception of reality is distorted from its true image. So obviously reality is independent from perception.

That is true in the objective sense. But as a totality, All Reality includes perception - which is a Real phenomena in itself.

Originally Posted by really

Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're speaking of. Are you talking about the meaning of life?

It applies to anything, as long as you think about it enough, including the perception of reality, it's just it's hard to see. Mainly because of what you think perception is, I can see you think of a mind like something other than it basically is. What is a human brain (as far as we know)? In terms of, what is it made of and why does it work? Then think of what an animal brain is like.. Such as a dog or cat, and realise what is different between that and the human, you realise that these differences are simply much more closely related to us than you think, just with some missing features.
Think about the world as we know it.
Then, with this knowledge, what is perception? From our point of view, and big hint- what is it "made" of?

Reality IS perception. Perception is reality, what is real is our perception, and our perception is made up of reality.
They both wouldn't be able to work with one without the other.
If reality changed, so would our perception, because we are part of it too, just because we feel like all-seeing humans doesn't mean we're indifferent, our mind is made up of everything else.
See what I mean? Maybe a million, billion, trillion, lightyears away our reality wont be perceived the same way by "intellegent life", but we wont perceive their's the same either, because the realities may be different, as will the perceptions.

Originally Posted by Jimmehboi

Spoiler for The meaning of everything, as far as you can see.:

An attempt to reach perfect efficiency.

That is right, or in other words, to reduce the entropy (measure of order and randomness) of consciousness. That is the goal, though the meaning can be anything.

To decrease the entropy of consciousness or improve the quality of it is the evolution of consiousness. Tiny increments at each lifetime, we try to grasp the larger reality, get rid of fear (high entropy) and drop the herd mentality.

In other words, get better at taking choice with the same data, reduce entropy and improve the decision space, doing better with free will. When data is set in order it is much more workable, when the data is scattered it becomes hard to work with (entropy).

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

To decrease the entropy of consciousness or improve the quality of it is the evolution of consiousness. Tiny increments at each lifetime, we try to grasp the larger reality, get rid of fear (high entropy) and drop the herd mentality.

= Nail's head --> Pwnd

Originally Posted by Jimmehboi

It applies to anything, as long as you think about it enough, including the perception of reality, it's just it's hard to see. Mainly because of what you think perception is, I can see you think of a mind like something other than it basically is. What is a human brain (as far as we know)? In terms of, what is it made of and why does it work? Then think of what an animal brain is like.. Such as a dog or cat, and realise what is different between that and the human, you realise that these differences are simply much more closely related to us than you think, just with some missing features.
Think about the world as we know it.
Then, with this knowledge, what is perception? From our point of view, and big hint- what is it "made" of?

Concordant with the evolution of the human species, the "animal brain" is what has been inherited, and so we see correlations in human behavior, instincts and purposes. Obviously the main difference between humans and animals is the capacity of human intelligence and rationality; the pre-frontal cortex.

Originally Posted by Jimmehboi

Reality IS perception. Perception is reality, what is real is our perception, and our perception is made up of reality.

This is not about Relativism. If perception be Reality, what is the meaning of deception, illusion and falsity? You are not taking into account universal truth(s) and objectivity. Positions, opinions and viewpoints are arbitrary, hence why they are as varied as the minds that hold them. They may be relative truths, but in this context, they are not Real or Absolute Truths. That which is ultimately Reality does not become modified by my imagination. Of course, my imagination is Real and part of Total Reality, however if we ask if it correlates as objectively True, it is often false. The importance is the relationship between Reality and perception.

Originally Posted by Jimmehboi

They both wouldn't be able to work with one without the other.
If reality changed, so would our perception, because we are part of it too, just because we feel like all-seeing humans doesn't mean we're indifferent, our mind is made up of everything else.

I'm not sure if you have seen this whole thread, because I did define perception and Reality to make more sense. I don't think you're seeing past the words. Reality "without," or rather, "beyond" perception, is taught as Divine. What cannot be separated from Reality is awareness or consciousness.

Originally Posted by Jimmehboi

See what I mean? Maybe a million, billion, trillion, lightyears away our reality wont be perceived the same way by "intellegent life", but we wont perceive their's the same either, because the realities may be different, as will the perceptions.

This is relative, as you've shown. I'm not emphasizing the importance of relative perception or academic knowledge, but the root of consciousness and subjectivity - the infinite context that prevails unaffected by whatever seems to occur.

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

That is right, or in other words, to reduce the entropy (measure of order and randomness) of consciousness. That is the goal, though the meaning can be anything.

To decrease the entropy of consciousness or improve the quality of it is the evolution of consiousness. Tiny increments at each lifetime, we try to grasp the larger reality, get rid of fear (high entropy) and drop the herd mentality.

In other words, get better at taking choice with the same data, reduce entropy and improve the decision space, doing better with free will. When data is set in order it is much more workable, when the data is scattered it becomes hard to work with (entropy).

I'm not sure what you're relating to here, but I know that "order and chaos" is not an issue here. Order and Chaos are artifacts of perception. Transcendent to perception is Divine Reality, which is consequently of infinite order and harmony, non-linear and incomprehensible. Whether something is easy or hard to work with has little to do with external factors.

Originally Posted by really

Concordant with the evolution of the human species, the "animal brain" is what has been inherited, and so we see correlations in human behavior, instincts and purposes. Obviously the main difference between humans and animals is the capacity of human intelligence and rationality; the pre-frontal cortex.

Too right, exactly what I said, there's so many differences in perception of reality when it comes to differenciating other animals and humans, but we all perceive life and existance, just on different levels of intelligence.



This is not about Relativism. If perception be Reality, what is the meaning of deception, illusion and falsity? You are not taking into account universal truth(s) and objectivity. Positions, opinions and viewpoints are arbitrary, hence why they are as varied as the minds that hold them. They may be relative truths, but in this context, they are not Real or Absolute Truths. That which is ultimately Reality does not become modified by my imagination. Of course, my imagination is Real and part of Total Reality, however if we ask if it correlates as objectively True, it is often false. The importance is the relationship between Reality and perception.[/QUOTE]

Too far! Too far! Way too far! Go down, as far down as you can, you're taking into consideration things which actually wont change anything on the matter, when it comes to humans, we're so complex, so it's easy to get lost in the paradoxial illusion of itself. I'm saying, think as simply as particles, and going with the idea of "fates fuel"- the attempt to reach perfect efficiency, for EVERYTHING, we are the same as everything around us. We are cells, all the same, our brain is made up of cells, soil is just cells, the air.. is cells, "perception", made by the brain, is a whole part of the reality we're in, as well- the plants, birds, trees, benches, bridges, glasses, cds, computers, string, cotton, rock, plastic. Reality is as it is- REALity, it can only be perceived one way, you couldn't perceieve this reality we're in if we didn't have the mind to do it, maybe if we were a million times the iltelligence we wouldn't perceieve it quite the same, but it would still run along the same principals- objects and life would appear the same, just on a more knowledgeable level.
But as reality changes, maybe ages through the universe, if "reality" slowly changes, considering what Sapientia said, entropy changes alters reality aswell. So "reality" actually stays the same everywhere, because whatever the reality is, it can't be perceived without a mind of perception from that same reality.

And reality is the same whether or not perception exists, perception is a product of reality, so it's not really independant to it or anything, much like how a water molecule is "independant" from the lake it's in.

Reality is obviously not synonymous to perception.

Perception is merely a computational model. Here's a mathematical equivalent: we may describe the average of some data using the mean, mode, or median. Such computation allows one to define a whole host of numbers albeit with different outcomes. Each computation gives the average of an array of numbers; however, no method cannot be said to depict reality any more than another. Simply, they are approximations of what the data show.

Again, compare our perception to insects. To us, the dandelion is a sunny yellow, but to insects this flower is a pearl white bursting and infused with a red centre. These insects can perceive ultraviolet light, whilst us humans can only perceive visible light. So what is the true reality here?

Put simply, we never perceive any thing as is due to the nature of our perception. For us to see, light need be cast across an object. Without light, we cannot see. So, do we really ever see what an object actually looks like? Would a cube look like a cube devoid of any light? We wouldn't see it. So how about the opposite then: hypothetically speaking, a uniformly lit cube. Now in this scenario, contours would be indistinguishable and the cube would appear to be a two dimensional hexagonal shape. What is reality then?

Perception is only reality insofar that it is my reality and no one else's. That which exists outside the limitations of my organic apparatus most definitely differs to the 'stencil' that I place upon it during perception.

In the end, we are forced to accept perception as reality on the grounds that it's the only 'reality' we have access to, and not because our perception models things exactly as they are.

Originally Posted by Quark

Reality is obviously not synonymous to perception.

Perception is merely a computational model. Here's a mathematical equivalent: we may describe the average of some data using the mean, mode, or median. Such computation allows one to define a whole host of numbers albeit with different outcomes. Each computation gives the average of an array of numbers; however, no method cannot be said to depict reality any more than another. Simply, they are approximations of what the data show.

Again, compare our perception to insects. To us, the dandelion is a sunny yellow, but to insects this flower is a pearl white bursting and infused with a red centre. These insects can perceive ultraviolet light, whilst us humans can only perceive visible light. So what is the true reality here?

Put simply, we never perceive any thing as is due to the nature of our perception. For us to see, light need be cast across an object. Without light, we cannot see. So, do we really ever see what an object actually looks like? Would a cube look like a cube devoid of any light? We wouldn't see it. So how about the opposite then: hypothetically speaking, a uniformly lit cube. Now in this scenario, contours would be indistinguishable and the cube would appear to be a two dimensional hexagonal shape. What is reality then?

Perception is only reality insofar that it is my reality and no one else's. That which exists outside the limitations of my organic apparatus most definitely differs to the 'stencil' that I place upon it during perception.

In the end, we are forced to accept perception as reality on the grounds that it's the only 'reality' we have access to, and not because our perception models things exactly as they are.

Nice.

Interesting replies.

Originally Posted by Jimmehboi

Too right, exactly what I said, there's so many differences in perception of reality when it comes to differenciating other animals and humans, but we all perceive life and existance, just on different levels of intelligence.

Yes, levels of intelligence and awareness - gradations in consciousness.

Originally Posted by Jimmehboi

Too far! Too far! Way too far! Go down, as far down as you can, you're taking into consideration things which actually wont change anything on the matter, when it comes to humans, we're so complex, so it's easy to get lost in the paradoxial illusion of itself. I'm saying, think as simply as particles, and going with the idea of "fates fuel"- the attempt to reach perfect efficiency, for EVERYTHING, we are the same as everything around us. We are cells, all the same, our brain is made up of cells, soil is just cells, the air.. is cells, "perception", made by the brain, is a whole part of the reality we're in, as well- the plants, birds, trees, benches, bridges, glasses, cds, computers, string, cotton, rock, plastic. Reality is as it is- REALity, it can only be perceived one way, you couldn't perceieve this reality we're in if we didn't have the mind to do it, maybe if we were a million times the iltelligence we wouldn't perceieve it quite the same, but it would still run along the same principals- objects and life would appear the same, just on a more knowledgeable level.

Everything is Self-fulfilling, but what does that have to do with it? Reality is obstructed by perception, which sees partials - only pieces of information at a time and this brings up thoughts about objects. Then usually there is automatic conclusion-jumping with inventions of new ideas, which are immediately believed. In Reality, yes, it Is As It Is, but not to perception, because perception is relative to the "perceiver." It is perception that sees "plants, birds, trees, benches, bridges, glasses, cds, computers, string, cotton, rock, plastic." Consciousness or awareness is closer to Reality because it is universal and transcends relative perception, contexualizing it; both time and space.

Originally Posted by Jimmehboi

But as reality changes, maybe ages through the universe, if "reality" slowly changes, considering what Sapientia said, entropy changes alters reality aswell. So "reality" actually stays the same everywhere, because whatever the reality is, it can't be perceived without a mind of perception from that same reality.

"Reality changes" according to what? Reality changes according to perception. Beyond perception, nothing changes. Of course, in the objective world of form, change is always occurring as an unfoldment or perceptual sequence. But deeper is the realization that all form is encompassed by an eternal stillness - which is Reality. There is nothing more, for it is the Infinite Reality.

Originally Posted by Jimmehboi

And reality is the same whether or not perception exists, perception is a product of reality, so it's not really independant to it or anything, much like how a water molecule is "independant" from the lake it's in.

Perception may be one with all Reality but it does not represent it in Truth, whereas a water molecule in a pure lake of water, would. It is redundant to conclude that "perception is a product of reality", and that it has no independence. It is independent to objective Reality because of its intrinsic nature to form arbitrary contexts and/or ignore valid ones. In this way it has no effect on actual Reality, and although it exists and may be called illusory (etc) that does not make it dependent on external circumstances. It may be refined and improved, but it still falls short of the infinite Reality as a limitation.

Originally Posted by Quark

Perception is merely a computational model. Here's a mathematical equivalent: we may describe the average of some data using the mean, mode, or median. Such computation allows one to define a whole host of numbers albeit with different outcomes. Each computation gives the average of an array of numbers; however, no method cannot be said to depict reality any more than another. Simply, they are approximations of what the data show.

That's interesting, yes. This is true because perception is of the mind. Science utilizes the mind and perception also, as does mathematics. Perception may as well be called "mind". Different levels of abstraction, but all the same in principle.

Originally Posted by Quark

Again, compare our perception to insects. To us, the dandelion is a sunny yellow, but to insects this flower is a pearl white bursting and infused with a red centre. These insects can perceive ultraviolet light, whilst us humans can only perceive visible light. So what is the true reality here?

They are both true unto themselves, however that does not mean perception is Reality. The viewpoints or dimensions that are applicable do not affect Reality, they are affected or channeled through perception. One affirms visible light, the other affirms ultraviolet, but in Reality there is possibly an infinite spectrum.

Now, perception may claim that it sees ghosts. And that is valid and Real in Awareness. However it is not valid and Real in perception, because perception acts much like the imagination. Yes the imagination is Real, but it often does not represent the Truth. Ghosts may be Real in essence, but most likely not according to how they are perceived. Yes you did see something, but it may have been on a different plane of existence, a different frequency of the electronagmetic spectrum, etc.

Originally Posted by Quark

Put simply, we never perceive any thing as is due to the nature of our perception. For us to see, light need be cast across an object. Without light, we cannot see. So, do we really ever see what an object actually looks like? Would a cube look like a cube devoid of any light? We wouldn't see it. So how about the opposite then: hypothetically speaking, a uniformly lit cube. Now in this scenario, contours would be indistinguishable and the cube would appear to be a two dimensional hexagonal shape. What is reality then?

Awareness does not deny perception but contextualizes it. The imagination may be Real by virtue of its existence, but not as to be True to the objective world (e.g. "Therefore the cube is actually a hexagon"). When all Reality is contextualized in awareness, all is seen for what it is, even so perception itself is seen (or preferably, "known") for what it is.

So when you ask, "do we really ever see what an object actually looks like?" the answer is yes, but in that case the question begs for perception. There is no use ignoring the surroundings of an object, because that ignores the context in which it exists. A light cube in the sunshine is a light cube in the sunshine, a dark cube in the shadow is exactly that. If the cube actually glowed in the dark, then under what circumstances is that the case? In the dark. According to awareness rather than perception, the world is still perceived but within the context of all phenomena rather than mere thoughts alone.

Referring to the classic "good vs evil" duality, what is Reality? To the "good" people, the other people are seen as "bad." To the "bad" people, they see themselves as "good" and the others as "bad". Obviously perception is not Reality, because there is inconsistency. However, in Awareness, we see that "good" and "evil" are mere labels and judgments. To see all people with an impartial eye is the meaning of true forgiveness. Forgiveness and compassion contextualize perception to "undo" what was never true in Reality, but only to itself. If anything, what is found in Awareness is the meaning of real love and "goodness", which actually contextualizes and affirms all existence. Perception would have things negated, categorized, judged and sorted erroneously. This may be ideal for worldly purposes and conceptualizing, but not for seeking Reality in Truth.

Originally Posted by Quark

Perception is only reality insofar that it is my reality and no one else's. That which exists outside the limitations of my organic apparatus most definitely differs to the 'stencil' that I place upon it during perception.

In the end, we are forced to accept perception as reality on the grounds that it's the only 'reality' we have access to, and not because our perception models things exactly as they are.

That's quite true. But the point is that we are not forced at all. It is in our power to go beyond our thoughts and viewpoints, that we can give them up for a greater purpose. Perception is a major mechanism and condition but it can still be transcended or "escaped".

It is sometimes called "Waking Up." The dream can be impressive, it can seem like all there is. But there is "something" watching; "something" that has no understanding of any phenomena right before it; right within it... Ultimately, we are a mere condition of the entire universe that is growing to discover its Source, that we are nothing and everything.

The cloud and the sky

What is one without the other?

And then without the seeing?

If you continue to think like this...your mind will be flipped. Reality is the world that has physical substance and exists on it's own independant of the mind...so it's just making a 'what if' out of something that can't be proven wrong.

IMJ

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

The cloud and the sky

What is one without the other?

And then without the seeing?

In Seeing, both are united as the same and both are different.

Originally Posted by imj

If you continue to think like this...your mind will be flipped. Reality is the world that has physical substance and exists on it's own independant of the mind...so it's just making a 'what if' out of something that can't be proven wrong.

IMJ

Can you elaborate? How is the "Absolute" a hypothetical Reality?

Reality can only be perceived through the 5 senses. If I perceive green and you perceive blue, the "reality" has been distorted. The green is very real to one who sees it. The blue is also very real to the one who sees it.
Everything that we interact with participates in the 5 senses of perception. So when you say "reality is not perception" it is a self refuting argument to the one who sees blue instead of green. When I dream and feel a wall and run through it, you could go ahead and tell me that wall is not real. Why? It's because you will never perceive that wall and that which you can not perceive does not exist inherit to you as the individual. You stray to much from the core of the subject matter, refuting over matters to hypothetical, not very piratical to the theoretical standpoints of the argument.

Originally Posted by Dreams4free

Reality can only be perceived through the 5 senses. If I perceive green and you perceive blue, the "reality" has been distorted. The green is very real to one who sees it. The blue is also very real to the one who sees it.

So why do you say it is "distorted"?

Originally Posted by Dreams4free

Everything that we interact with participates in the 5 senses of perception. So when you say "reality is not perception" it is a self refuting argument to the one who sees blue instead of green. When I dream and feel a wall and run through it, you could go ahead and tell me that wall is not real. Why? It's because you will never perceive that wall and that which you can not perceive does not exist inherit to you as the individual. You stray to much from the core of the subject matter, refuting over matters to hypothetical, not very piratical to the theoretical standpoints of the argument.

I thought I made the distinction between relative reality and Absolute Reality quite clear. Do you disagree? The Absolute is the core of the matter! Otherwise, you simply live in your own imagination.