does one deserve what one cannot protect?

[nerve]

the masses exist for the individual's amusement. they are the individual's source of income and entertainment, there to be taken advantage of and toyed with. if people are going to allow themselves to be stupid enough to fall for tricks and gimmicks, then they deserve it. all preventable, if they only cared to prevent it...if they don't even try, then they obviously don't care whether or not they are metiphorically raped. to say they do is foolishness. I ask you, does one deserve what one cannot protect?

[Oneironaut Zero]

the masses exist for the individual's amusement. they are the individual's source of income and entertainment, there to be taken advantage of and toyed with. if people are going to allow themselves to be stupid enough to fall for tricks and gimmicks, then they deserve it. all preventable, if they only cared to prevent it...if they don't even try, then they obviously don't care whether or not they are metiphorically raped. to say they do is foolishness. I ask you, does one deserve what one cannot protect? I think paradigms like the above are a large part of what's wrong with the world today, and in times past. Too many people are in it for themselves. Crimes of opportunity (of all types) hinge on those very sentiments. 'What do I care if I hurt someone? At least I'm not the one getting hurt.' 'What do I care if I steal from someone? At least I'm smart enough to do it. It's their fault for falling for it.' The human species at its most egotistic. Some people simply do not have the life experience to be aware of all attempts to take advantage of them. Some people have a little more faith in civilized humanity than to suspect that every person they meet on the street would just as soon rob them of their last dime than to give them the shirt off their back. I think it's fucking pathetic that people have to be that on guard in their daily lives, because of (and there's really no other way to say it) people like you.

[Universal Mind]

the masses exist for the individual's amusement. they are the individual's source of income and entertainment, there to be taken advantage of and toyed with. if people are going to allow themselves to be stupid enough to fall for tricks and gimmicks, then they deserve it. all preventable, if they only cared to prevent it...if they don't even try, then they obviously don't care whether or not they are metiphorically raped. to say they do is foolishness. I ask you, does one deserve what one cannot protect? No. Some people do not know better. They honestly think it is okay to trust people who in reality cannot be trusted. The scam artist is not justified. He is complete trash.

[tkdyo]

I believe the only reason humans survived in to being the dominant species we are is due to the fact that we are social and work in groups to save someone else. If we start to break that and go every man for himself we will fail eventually.

[nerve]

I think paradigms like the above are a large part of what's wrong with the world today, and in times past. Too many people are in it for themselves. Crimes of opportunity (of all types) hinge on those very sentiments. 'What do I care if I hurt someone? At least I'm not the one getting hurt.' 'What do I care if I steal from someone? At least I'm smart enough to do it. It's their fault for falling for it.' The human species at its most egotistic. Some people simply do not have the life experience to be aware of all attempts to take advantage of them. Some people have a little more faith in civilized humanity than to suspect that every person they meet on the street would just as soon rob them of their last dime than to give them the shirt off their back. I think it's fucking pathetic that people have to be that on guard in their daily lives, because of (and there's really no other way to say it) people like you. because of people..."like me", we will NEVER reach a utopia. there are just so many of "us", too many. the sad thing is, MOST of them aren't even aware of it. they think they are good people, they...try to be, but instead of doing any real good, helping make any kind of real progress toward a utopia (or just a better world) for future generations, they are just going about their own daily lives, focusing mostly on their own families. too many people are just sitting on their asses, usually in front of a television. these people have the same mentality as you. and the way I see it, having this mentality, this sense of "good" or...whatever, is simply not enough. ANYWAY...I actually agree with everything you said (excluding the last line). Some people simply do not have the life experience to be aware of all attempts to take advantage of them. but (most of them) have every opportunity to educate themselves. study. learn. instead of worrying about friends, appearence, keeping up with the jonses, making sure your stupid tv shows are being recorded, downloading porn, whatever else the idiot masses concern themselves with, sitting on their asses and doing NOTHING, they could be focusing on knowledge, education, information. they could be putting so much more effort into bettering themselves, and protecting all they've earned, but...they don't really care. No. Some people do not know better. They honestly think it is okay to trust people who in reality cannot be trusted. The scam artist is not justified. He is complete trash. why would you want to justify stupidity? and tkdyo your reply was so dumb I'm not even going to bother.

[Universal Mind]

why would you want to justify stupidity? Because some people are born stupid and others are not taught how to watch out for scummy cons. Stupidity is not an act of evil, but preying on the stupid is. Also, falling for a con is not automatically stupid.

[grasshoppa]

We are all apart of the 'masses', and this is what people forget. If we acted as one community, one tribe, then we would all want to help each other because we would know that when we need it, we will have it. Society would progress infinitely and never stagnate if people had this in mind. Poor parts of the world would not be exploited by large corporations and rich businessmen, further separating the rich and poor. Take a look at Jamaica. An important export commodity, bananas has become useless. The people can buy imported bananas for nothing compared to local home-grown bananas because we sell them our massive amounts of leftover product for dirt cheap. There is no point for Banana farmers to continue working in Jamaica, which has totally fucked up the economy there. These people have been robbed in my eyes, exploited by rich, greedy businessmen who are only looking to make just a little bit more money. Do you think they deserve that?

[Techno]

The criminal's actions are not justified if the victim does not know they are, care they are, or want to cease to be the victim. This is never more true than in a situation where the victim can't stop the criminals from what they're doing. You are sick for even suggesting that such behavior is ethical.

[Oneironaut Zero]

because of people..."like me", we will NEVER reach a utopia. there are just so many of "us", too many. the sad thing is, MOST of them aren't even aware of it. they think they are good people, they...try to be, but instead of doing any real good, helping make any kind of real progress toward a utopia (or just a better world) for future generations, they are just going about their own daily lives, focusing mostly on their own families. too many people are just sitting on their asses, usually in front of a television. these people have the same mentality as you. and the way I see it, having this mentality, this sense of "good" or...whatever, is simply not enough. ANYWAY...I actually agree with everything you said (excluding the last line). I agree that sloth and apathy are horrible character traits as well. I'm not implying that they are not. But you have to understand that there are often many variables that lead people to be that lazy or indifferent. The only reason you or I care about education and intelligence is because of our past experiences. We have been (whether intentionally or inadvertently) conditioned to care. We know the importance, and we have taken active stances toward reducing our own ignorance. The unfortunate fact is that there are so many people who just haven't been that dialed in to the importance of obtaining knowledge outside of their personal - usually media-fed - boxes. So much of that I agree with you on. I could start a whole 'nother rant about the whole thing, but that's really not the basis of this topic now is it? The difference between you and I is that you find other peoples' ignorance (most condemnably(sp) when many of them are good people, who simply don't know any better) as a chance to exploit them. It is, in your eyes, an opportunity to prey on the 'weak'; to take what you could not otherwise obtain by taking advantage of those who may have meant you no harm, but were just so easy to harm and get what you want. I, on the other hand, see other peoples' ignorance as a chance to educate them, or offer them some perspective, if it's within my power. If they use their ignorance to harm or exploit others, I have no moral issue with turning their own ignorance against them, but when it comes to your regular, everyday person on the street, I don't take the idea that I might know more than them as a green-light to use them as a stepping-stone for personal gain. Were I to do this, I wouldn't be worthy of having friends, because my philosophy would be a fundamental middle-finger to the concept of 'friend.' And you're right. We will never be a utopia. There are too many of 'you' (and I didn't mean that to be an overt insult, just the only way I could think to make it the most relevant) out there. That doesn't change the fact that that is the way I feel, and that is the way I live my life. I would rather teach people to be aware of people like you than to use their ignorance to take advantage of them. I'm not 'working toward a utopia'. I am treating others the way I would like to be treated, which is something I find as a defining difference between 'human' and 'animal.' but (most of them) have every opportunity to educate themselves. study. learn. instead of worrying about friends, appearence, keeping up with the jonses, making sure your stupid tv shows are being recorded, downloading porn, whatever else the idiot masses concern themselves with, sitting on their asses and doing NOTHING, they could be focusing on knowledge, education, information. they could be putting so much more effort into bettering themselves, and protecting all they've earned, but...they don't really care. Like I said, the only reason you 'care' so much is because you've experienced factors of life which have caused you to care. Unfortunately, many people are so stuck in their boxes that they don't see the importance, either until they are taught, or until someone 'like you' comes along and takes them for everything they have - forcing them to change through hardship. You might even try to say that that somehow justifies your paradigm, but I would disagree because it's not necessary to reach the same end. Experience may be the best teacher, but sometimes, when you throw your child into the lake to force him to sink or swim...he sinks. Then you start to wonder if you'd have done better to actually go through the motions with him.

[nerve]

I agree that sloth and apathy are horrible character traits as well. I'm not implying that they are not. But you have to understand that there are often many variables that lead people to be that lazy or indifferent. The only reason you or I care about education and intelligence is because of our past experiences. We have been (whether intentionally or inadvertently) conditioned to care. We know the importance, and we have taken active stances toward reducing our own ignorance. The unfortunate fact is that there are so many people who just haven't been that dialed in to the importance of obtaining knowledge outside of their personal - usually media-fed - boxes. So much of that I agree with you on. right, but I think all humans (or ok, at least THIS culture that I've grown up in, I don't know) are exposed to more or less the same shit. life and death, love and hate, positives and negatives, opposites and extremes, same shit. I think everyone is capable of waking up one day with the realization that reading books + listening and making observations/taking notes = moar edumacation 4 my brain. right? :\ I could start a whole 'nother rant about the whole thing, but that's really not the basis of this topic now is it? wut? I would think it would be relevant, what exactly do you mean? I'm all for it, really, if it's a little off-topic, start a new thread? either way I am very, very interested in hearing everything you have to say about this. The difference between you and I is that you find other peoples' ignorance (most condemnably(sp) when many of them are good people, who simply don't know any better) as a chance to exploit them. It is, in your eyes, an opportunity to prey on the 'weak'; to take what you could not otherwise obtain by taking advantage of those who may have meant you no harm, but were just so easy to harm and get what you want. they may not have consciously meant to harm me. they may not do what they do thinking "I do what I do to hurt RT, take that." but through their selfish ignorance they really are hurting not just ME, but...everyone. all people, whether I personally care about them or not. everyone, including you. I, on the other hand, see other peoples' ignorance as a chance to educate them, or offer them some perspective, if it's within my power. If they use their ignorance to harm or exploit others, I have no moral issue with turning their own ignorance against them, but when it comes to your regular, everyday person on the street, I don't take the idea that I might know more than them as a green-light to use them as a stepping-stone for personal gain. Were I to do this, I wouldn't be worthy of having friends, because my philosophy would be a fundamental middle-finger to the concept of 'friend.' care to elaborate? (I just don't see it) And you're right. We will never be a utopia. There are too many of 'you' (and I didn't mean that to be an overt insult, just the only way I could think to make it the most relevant) out there. That doesn't change the fact that that is the way I feel, and that is the way I live my life. I would rather teach people to be aware of people like you than to use their ignorance to take advantage of them. I'm not 'working toward a utopia'. I am treating others the way I would like to be treated, which is something I find as a defining difference between 'human' and 'animal.' that's good that you aren't trying to insult me, I figured you had just decided "welp, this guy's a douche." I mean, if I didn't care at all, I wouldn't have bothered to make this thread. :) anyway, golden rule...is the bottom line, I guess. I am trying to understand it. I'm not saying all this because I think I should be able to go around taking advantage of everyone, it's not all about me, because I really feel that if someone pulls one over on me...well, I think it's fair. really, I feel that if people are getting money out of me for nothing (for example), then it's my fault for not researching the product/seller. as far as being literally raped, I think I would blame myself for...walking the streets at night by myself, or leaving my door unlocked, or something (it depends on the situation). I do wonder if I would still think that way if it actually happened. I like to think I would not be a total hypocrite. can we really know ourselves? but that is a whole nother topic, one I've planned to make a thread about and probably will... anyway, I digress. back to subject: it is interesting that you mention the human/animal difference. do you know anything about satanism? I admit that my knowledge of the philosophy is rather limited, but from what I gather, satanists embrace man's animal nature, and are all about shunning stupidity and bettering themselves. (I'm sure you are intelligent enough not to think that satanism is quite what the media portrays it to be...you know, sacrificing children and such...so I'm sure I don't have to explain that.) yes, I would say that on this issue I take a very satanic stance. I've considered becoming a satanist for years now, but I'd like to know if that really is "wrong" and hurtful. this thread will certainly be helpful in making my decision. I doubt that you've studied satanism, if you haven't, would you consider reading up on it? it really seems to me to be a very good way of life, and, at least as far as I've read, I actually think the world would be a better place if everyone was satanic. but that will never happen! satanism realizes that, it accepts that we will never reach a utopia, and basically says...live your live to the fullest, be the best you can be, for yourself and the ones you love. why live any other way? really. Like I said, the only reason you 'care' so much is because you've experienced factors of life which have caused you to care. Unfortunately, many people are so stuck in their boxes that they don't see the importance, either until they are taught, or until someone 'like you' comes along and takes them for everything they have - forcing them to change through hardship. You might even try to say that that somehow justifies your paradigm, but I would disagree because it's not necessary to reach the same end. Experience may be the best teacher, but sometimes, when you throw your child into the lake to force him to sink or swim...he sinks. Then you start to wonder if you'd have done better to actually go through the motions with him. interesting...but like I said earlier, I think we are all exposed to more or less the same shit, and all capable of realizing that we should spend more time studying and less time watching tv. I actually think that MOST people are biologically/physically/whatevs INCAPABLE of wrapping their minds around that concept (an evolutionary thing, perhaps?). why bother trying to teach them? yes, I believe that SOME of them can be reached, but the majority I think is forever lost. they are born sheep and will die sheep, and nothing you ever say to them will ever "click". they have this metaphorical brick-wall of anti-reason around their heads, and the most reasonable statement will be but a scratch on the wall... they are robots. THEY are the "animals", if you ask me. no real thoughts, no real feelings, garbage in, garbage out existence. really, when we talk about taking advantage of people, we should be more specific. because that could be anything from selling someone a faulty car, to literal rape. I do NOT advocate either of those things. I do NOT however, have a problem with selling people things of no REAL value. by that I do not mean a product that does not do what it is supposed to do, what you SAY it will do (although I think even that depends), but things like porn, or things that are "cute" (just a couple examples), that don't have any REAL value. sex sells and so does cute. you and I know that. why not use it? it doesn't mean that you NECESSARILY have to sell things of poor quality. Also, falling for a con is not automatically stupid. (I believe I answered the first part of your post in my reply to Oneironaut.) right, there are exceptions to everything, but I think that for the most part...yes, falling for a con would, in most cases, be the result of careless ignorance. and I do believe that stupidity is a sin. These people have been robbed in my eyes, exploited by rich, greedy businessmen who are only looking to make just a little bit more money. Do you think they deserve that? probably not. I would have to know more about the whole situation. but from what you've told me, no, I do not agree with it. as I explained above, I do not advocate EVERY instance of taking advantage of others. The criminal's actions are not justified if the victim does not know they are, care they are, or want to cease to be the victim. are you SERIOUS? REALLY? I may have thought so if it weren't for that last part. are you REALLY SERIOUS? if someone steals my car and I don't care, that is not an act of theft at all, but rather me giving that person a gift. what exactly was going through your head when you typed that? ._. This is never more true than in a situation where the victim can't stop the criminals from what they're doing. You are sick for even suggesting that such behavior is ethical. what what what? did I say anything about ethics? I don't think I did.

[Techno]

what what what? did I say anything about ethics? I don't think I did. Oh, I'm sorry. This wasn't about ethics? Well, excuse me for crossing a line.

[Lord Bennington]

Does one deserve what one cannot protect, you ask? The short answer: No. The long answer: Yes. You don't deserve anything at all. You don't have any inherent rights, unless you want to get into a sort of mutual rights system, where everyone allows rights because they want them for themselves. But philosophically, you don't have rights. So do you have the right to have something you can't protect? Nope. But does ANYONE have the right to take that something from you? Nope. So, you don't specifically have the right to have object X. But since no one can take it from you, it is concievable that you might have it. And since you have no right to have it, it is concievable that you might not have it. So, yes, you CAN have it because no one can take it from you, but there is no basic right to DEFINITELY have it. That's my take. I think the no rights=rights is a rather clever meeting of nihilism and order. I thought this up to argue with my English teacher.

[juroara]

I think this thread is a con

[Oneironaut Zero]

*moved to Philosophy* (Figured it would be more fitting there.) Will reply in a lil bit.

[tkdyo]

tkdyo your reply was so dumb I'm not even going to bother. sounds like an excuse to me, are you saying then that the concept of evolution is dumb? Because that was what I was IMPLYING was responsible for us protecting people.. but apparently you didnt get it.

[Invader]

the masses exist for the individual's amusement. Is that just a premise for your proposed question, or is that what you personally believe in?

[Universal Mind]

right, there are exceptions to everything, but I think that for the most part...yes, falling for a con would, in most cases, be the result of careless ignorance. and I do believe that stupidity is a sin. Have you thought about becoming a television evangelist? What about beating up random retarded people?

[Taosaur]

the masses exist for the individual's amusement. they are the individual's source of income and entertainment, there to be taken advantage of and toyed with. if people are going to allow themselves to be stupid enough to fall for tricks and gimmicks, then they deserve it. all preventable, if they only cared to prevent it...if they don't even try, then they obviously don't care whether or not they are metiphorically raped. to say they do is foolishness. I ask you, does one deserve what one cannot protect? You're stating an antisocial position, corrosive to society. If you act on this worldview, society will enact increasingly harsh corrective measures to limit your sphere of influence, beginning with alienation from polite society and up to and including capital punishment. If you're too stupid to recognize that compassion and cooperation are the means of attaining freedom, do you deserve what you cannot protect?

[nerve]

sounds like an excuse to me, are you saying then that the concept of evolution is dumb? Because that was what I was IMPLYING was responsible for us protecting people.. but apparently you didnt get it. animals look out for themselves and their own. and I consider humans animals. nothing more. what about...survival of the fittest? isn't that the bottom line of evolution? maybe I just don't see how it fits with this topic because it's delving a little too deep, and seemed a little abstract...I don't know. that's why I considered the reply dumb, because it was so out there. why don't you elaborate? how does it fit? I am genuinely interested, especially if you really do know anything about evolution, besides uh, it's like scientific and stuff so I believe in it. (and I did NOT say that to insult YOU personally, it's just that I understand that evolution is a very complicated subject and most people I talk to have no idea what they're talking about. :\) please, elaborate. Is that just a premise for your proposed question, or is that what you personally believe in? ...a little of both? Have you thought about becoming a television evangelist? What about beating up random retarded people? you're either fucking with me or you didn't read my last reply. but I'll answer anyway: first thing, no, because ICP might put a hatchet in my face :(, and second thing no, because stupidity and retardation are two different things. really, you cannot be serious. You're stating an antisocial position, corrosive to society. If you act on this worldview, society will enact increasingly harsh corrective measures to limit your sphere of influence, beginning with alienation from polite society and up to and including capital punishment. oh, I'm pretty sure plenty of people are out there with this same philosophy and getting away with it with few or no problems. what do you think I'm talking about? going on killing sprees whenever I get the urge? seriously. If you're too stupid to recognize that compassion and cooperation are the means of attaining freedom, do you deserve what you cannot protect? whoa. no need for that. there are a good lot of people that follow this philosophy that are plenty intelligent. I admit I am not the brightest crayon in the box, but why don't you try to understand this stance and its execution/implementation before you go calling me names :)

[Taosaur]

whoa. no need for that. there are a good lot of people that follow this philosophy that are plenty intelligent. I admit I am not the brightest crayon in the box, but why don't you try to understand this stance and its execution/implementation before you go calling me names See, I was saying what you said, but to you, like you said it, to you. See? Your position may be practiced with impressive convulsions of intellect, but it still demonstrates a failure of understanding, and brings ever greater internal and external pressures to bear upon those who pursue it. You're talking about economic and emotional cannibalism.

[Oneironaut Zero]

right, but I think all humans (or ok, at least THIS culture that I've grown up in, I don't know) are exposed to more or less the same shit. life and death, love and hate, positives and negatives, opposites and extremes, same shit. I think everyone is capable of waking up one day with the realization that reading books + listening and making observations/taking notes = moar edumacation 4 my brain. right? :\ The fact of the matter is that we're not all exposed to the same shit. We may be introduced to the same concepts, but how significant is that, really? What differs is the extent to which we are made aware of the importance of these concepts. So many people don't understand how important knowledge is. The 'ride' of life is so much more enticing, because it's so much easier. If you can ride your way through life, without ever becoming aware of the joy (or importance) of driving...why would you ever want to drive? You're speaking in retrospect, basically. You're speaking on the fulfillment you've attained from knowledge, but you're not speaking from a position that was never driven toward that fulfillment. There are so many people that don't understand the need for attaining such knowledge, so why should they be held accountable for not being on the same plane as others who see beyond their perspective, if they are simply unaware? wut? I would think it would be relevant, what exactly do you mean? I'm all for it, really, if it's a little off-topic, start a new thread? either way I am very, very interested in hearing everything you have to say about this. Well, I'd figured that your point was much less about why people should be be proactive in educating themselves than it was about why people who didn't educate themselves were open game for exploitation. I think these are two completely different concepts. It's even not so much "sloth" as it is "apathy." I can be a lazy motherfucker, but I'm not apathetic, when it comes to knowledge. I want to know how to protect myself and my interests. I want to understand the importance. But, I don't want to feel like I have to follow a standard. I want to feel that I can live my life the way I want to live it, and that I can let other people live their lives the way they wish to live them. I rap, and most of my subject matter is about the ignorant paradigms among the rap culture, so I have a lot to say about people who choose to live in ignorance, but I understand that there is a large population of people who live in ignorance but would actually change themselves for the better, if shown the importance/benefits of doing so. If you spend your time taking advantage of people, you can't really know whether or not they are actually those kinds of people. You simply act on opportunity. they may not have consciously meant to harm me. they may not do what they do thinking "I do what I do to hurt RT, take that." but through their selfish ignorance they really are hurting not just ME, but...everyone. all people, whether I personally care about them or not. everyone, including you. Looking at life through those lenses, every child is actually hurting me as well. Should I take everyone - who hasn't come to a certain stage of development which defines such ignorance as harmful - as a personal threat? Or should I look at them as a person who simply hasn't been given perspective beyond what they're used to? You can't judge a person on their choices unless they are aware (completely) of their choices and their consequences. care to elaborate? (I just don't see it) Well, given your philosophy, how can you see yourself worthy of trust? Ever? If your philosophy is that it's excusable to take advantage of those too stupid to protect their assets, why would any cognizant person trust you? You're expressing (in no uncertain terms) that if you find someone unable to protect their own, you are likely to move in on them and take advantage. Such a person could never expect to find himself in a meaningful friendship or relationship, because you telegraph the idea that you will fuck them over, whenever most convenient for you. that's good that you aren't trying to insult me, I figured you had just decided "welp, this guy's a douche." I mean, if I didn't care at all, I wouldn't have bothered to make this thread. anyway, golden rule...is the bottom line, I guess. I am trying to understand it. I'm not saying all this because I think I should be able to go around taking advantage of everyone, it's not all about me, because I really feel that if someone pulls one over on me...well, I think it's fair. really, I feel that if people are getting money out of me for nothing (for example), then it's my fault for not researching the product/seller. as far as being literally raped, I think I would blame myself for...walking the streets at night by myself, or leaving my door unlocked, or something (it depends on the situation). I do wonder if I would still think that way if it actually happened. I like to think I would not be a total hypocrite. can we really know ourselves? but that is a whole nother topic, one I've planned to make a thread about and probably will... You're automatically assuming that being taken advantage of counts on your being neglectful. (Walking the streets at night / leaving the door unlocked.) In reality, this just isn't the case. Like I said, being diligent requires knowledge of the odds of the consequences. This, again, relies on experience. It's about trust and trust issues. You might think you're in a community where you don't have to be completely anal about locking your doors. Some people just aren't that cynical to where they believe someone is likely to walk into their home. You have people - even now - that will tell others about how 'where they're from they don't have to worry about people just invading their homes.' And it's true. Some people just don't find themselves as alert as others, and no one can really fault them except for those people who are aware of the alternative. anyway, I digress. back to subject: it is interesting that you mention the human/animal difference. do you know anything about satanism? I admit that my knowledge of the philosophy is rather limited, but from what I gather, satanists embrace man's animal nature, and are all about shunning stupidity and bettering themselves. (I'm sure you are intelligent enough not to think that satanism is quite what the media portrays it to be...you know, sacrificing children and such...so I'm sure I don't have to explain that.) yes, I would say that on this issue I take a very satanic stance. I've considered becoming a satanist for years now, but I'd like to know if that really is "wrong" and hurtful. this thread will certainly be helpful in making my decision. I understand enough about Satan and Satanism to know that it's not really as it is portrayed. After all, Lucifer was simply an angel who was cast out because he refused to worship Adam simply on command. There are many animal instincts that I have no problem with advocating, but I'm just not the kind of person that condones stepping on the faces of other people just to get an elevated position. I doubt that you've studied satanism, if you haven't, would you consider reading up on it? it really seems to me to be a very good way of life, and, at least as far as I've read, I actually think the world would be a better place if everyone was satanic. but that will never happen! satanism realizes that, it accepts that we will never reach a utopia, and basically says...live your live to the fullest, be the best you can be, for yourself and the ones you love. why live any other way? really. I'm not religious enough to look at Satanism any different than any other religion. I live by a person code of ethics, and it's good enough for me. I understand the types of things that I would feel would impede upon me, and I try not to impede upon others in the same respect. interesting...but like I said earlier, I think we are all exposed to more or less the same shit, and all capable of realizing that we should spend more time studying and less time watching tv. I actually think that MOST people are biologically/physically/whatevs INCAPABLE of wrapping their minds around that concept (an evolutionary thing, perhaps?). why bother trying to teach them? yes, I believe that SOME of them can be reached, but the majority I think is forever lost. they are born sheep and will die sheep, and nothing you ever say to them will ever "click". they have this metaphorical brick-wall of anti-reason around their heads, and the most reasonable statement will be but a scratch on the wall... I don't think anyone is incapable. I think that they are so wrapped up in other sources of input that making an impact upon them is increasingly difficult. The 'anti-reason' you speak of is simply their under-exposure to the same variables which made you as capable of reason as you feel they are. They might have a passing familiarity, but obviously not on the scale you have, otherwise they would feel about any given situation exactly as you do. they are robots. THEY are the "animals", if you ask me. no real thoughts, no real feelings, garbage in, garbage out existence. That's a bit harsh. Their feelings might not be as layered, logical or substantial as yours, but that doesn't make them any less real. really, when we talk about taking advantage of people, we should be more specific. because that could be anything from selling someone a faulty car, to literal rape. I do NOT advocate either of those things. I do NOT however, have a problem with selling people things of no REAL value. by that I do not mean a product that does not do what it is supposed to do, what you SAY it will do (although I think even that depends), but things like porn, or things that are "cute" (just a couple examples), that don't have any REAL value. sex sells and so does cute. you and I know that. why not use it? it doesn't mean that you NECESSARILY have to sell things of poor quality. But where does one draw the line between such acts? One man's 'rape' is another man's 'swindle'. There are different variables in what is actually being violated, but the fundamental concept is the same. You take what you want, by the inability of the other person to stop you. You exploit the weakness of others to advance yourself, with little regard for how much the act affects the target. And Taosaur actually has a very good point. He did nothing more but turn the same principle you used back upon you. He insulted your intelligence by your inability to see the importance of compassion and cooperation, and expressed a justification in looking down his nose at you - to which, you got offended. It displayed that you actually have a fundamental understanding of why your own, judgmental stance is so controversial, when it's used against you.

[AirRick101]

the masses exist for the individual's amusement. they are the individual's source of income and entertainment, there to be taken advantage of and toyed with. if people are going to allow themselves to be stupid enough to fall for tricks and gimmicks, then they deserve it. all preventable, if they only cared to prevent it...if they don't even try, then they obviously don't care whether or not they are metiphorically raped. to say they do is foolishness. I ask you, does one deserve what one cannot protect? humans are always going to capitalize on other people's interest, which is pretty much the foundation for a large portion of the world economy. but what's the good in preventing such a thing anyway? I honestly have not been as pessimistic about this particular issue as you've expressed.

[really]

If this is simplified, we can say that if something of human belief can be prevented or put into action, then it would be. If it can't, the conditions are obviously not ready. Will you ask if human beings should not be human beings, or if a human should escape the vicissitudes of human-life because you think he is "special"? Remember, the hypothetical is not real.

[nerve]

See, I was saying what you said, but to you, like you said it, to you. See? touché. I concede. but as far as the philosophy goes I am now completely on the fence. Your position may be practiced with impressive convulsions of intellect, but it still demonstrates a failure of understanding, and brings ever greater internal and external pressures to bear upon those who pursue it. You're talking about economic and emotional cannibalism. examples please? is it really a failure of understanding, or is it perfect understanding? how are you so sure? I still don't understand. I need examples, maybe. more input. The fact of the matter is that we're not all exposed to the same shit. We may be introduced to the same concepts, but how significant is that, really? What differs is the extent to which we are made aware of the importance of these concepts. So many people don't understand how important knowledge is. The 'ride' of life is so much more enticing, because it's so much easier. If you can ride your way through life, without ever becoming aware of the joy (or importance) of driving...why would you ever want to drive? You're speaking in retrospect, basically. You're speaking on the fulfillment you've attained from knowledge, but you're not speaking from a position that was never driven toward that fulfillment. There are so many people that don't understand the need for attaining such knowledge, so why should they be held accountable for not being on the same plane as others who see beyond their perspective, if they are simply unaware? I see what you mean and I once thought the same thing. but now I'm seeing it both ways and it's driving me crazy. I still think everyone is perfectly capable of realizing that knowledge is important. life is rife with examples of just that. even if all you do is sit there and watch tv all day, the message is there, over and over. you know something, you avoid danger. you know this, you avoid loss. you know that, you avoid embarassment. reading is good. studying is important. college is necessary if you ever want to make something of yourself. as children, we're told over and over that books = good. read, read, read. still...at the same time...I do see what you are saying. I can see how in a persons life, past experience, there may never be that one thing that just makes it "click" in their minds. it happened to me, whatever the reason. nature, nurture...who knows. maybe a mix of both. Well, given your philosophy, how can you see yourself worthy of trust? Ever? If your philosophy is that it's excusable to take advantage of those too stupid to protect their assets, why would any cognizant person trust you? You're expressing (in no uncertain terms) that if you find someone unable to protect their own, you are likely to move in on them and take advantage. Such a person could never expect to find himself in a meaningful friendship or relationship, because you telegraph the idea that you will fuck them over, whenever most convenient for you. you're absolutely right. thanks for explaining. I mean...it was pretty self-explanatory, I don't know why I couldn't see it. I understand enough about Satan and Satanism to know that it's not really as it is portrayed. After all, Lucifer was simply an angel who was cast out because he refused to worship Adam simply on command. There are many animal instincts that I have no problem with advocating, but I'm just not the kind of person that condones stepping on the faces of other people just to get an elevated position. the story of lucifer really, really bothers me. for one thing, it isn't even in the bible. I don't know where it came from or what the actual story even is, and trying to find it has been like trying to find a needle in a haystack. what REALLY bothers me though is that Lucifer is seen as the bad guy. it makes NO sense. if lucifer is blamed then EVERYTHING points to god being a cruel, evil, sadistic monster. I wrote an "essay" (it was poorly written for an essay, I admit, but I think the point was clear) on lucifer quite awhile back and posted it on here...do you remember it? I'm not religious enough to look at Satanism any different than any other religion. I live by a person code of ethics, and it's good enough for me. I understand the types of things that I would feel would impede upon me, and I try not to impede upon others in the same respect. satanism is not a religion but a philosophy. I'm sure any satanist would cringe at your calling it a religion. (though, of course, that does not mean that no satanist is religious about it, I know...) I still think that there is something to this philosophy. I think it is a better way of life. I think, if I would only embrace it, and live by it, I'd be a much better person. I feel strongly that if I were to put it into practice, I would: -stop smoking, or cut way down. -exercise more, and eat well. get myself in good, healthy shape. -study and read more. a LOT more. -practise things. master trades. work, and take care of myself (and the ones I love) I feel that anyone who took the philosophy seriously and put it into practice would do the same, as these things are...not required, but highly encouraged (with the exception of mastering a trade, which is a requirement). (I have to add here the disclaimer that I don't think it's necessary to be a satanist to improve yourself, just that I think it is an excellent means, as it is very strict on practise and improvement.) furthermore, I don't think that satanism has a problem with helping others. if you become a master surgeon, and you choose to, say, correct cleft palates for people in third-world-countries, I don't think anything in satanism says that you cannot or should not do this instead of using your talent souly for personal gain. it says you should master a trade and enjoy your life, and if that is what makes you happy, then so be it. the only thing is, I don't think satanism objects to using your talents to gain money and power at other peoples expense, and I'm not sure that I do either. they say basically that because there will never be a utopia, and things will never be perfect, it makes no difference which "side" you take, as long as YOU are happy. (then again...I'm pretty sure they don't believe in an afterlife, which makes sense. :\) I don't know what to believe anymore. I used to share your viewpoint, quite passionately actually. I went through a healthy-eating phase, read Kevin Trudeau's Natural Cures "They" Don't Want You to Know About, and was absolutely outraged at all the suffering people endure at the hands of the pharmaceutical industry. I took it to the extreme in my mind, I actually wanted to open a non-profit restraunt that served only 100% organic and "pure" food (if such a thing is even possible...?). I wanted desperately to give out copies of his book, and educate people any way I could. I don't know what happened. I think I became more outraged by the existence of stupidity, and came to the realization that we will never reach a utopia, that such an existence is antipathetical (or contradicting?) of itself, the idea is inherently flawed, impossible...and things will always be as they are. for every person I educate, another one somewhere else will be forever lost. enlightening one person essentially seals the fate for another. nothing will ever change, things will wax good and in turn wane bad. so it doesn't much matter what I or anyone else does. and looking at it this way, each of my act of taking advantage of someone, each "bad" act of mine, is a good act happening elsewhere. I caught part of a show once, I think it was law and order, the murderer said something like this: "You need me. I'm the un-you." that really stuck in my mind, and I think I understand it now. it's true, it really is, whether you see it that way or not. and which side you take I think really depends a lot on whether or not you believe in the afterlife. if you don't, or if there isn't, it doesn't matter at all, you really can do whatever you please with no (ultimate) consequence. personally, I believe that we all either live the same exact life over and over and over, or each have a turn being another person in the same exact world/existence, or are sent to a somewhat higher or lower level...same thing, or expounding upon the last thing I guess, except in this case it's either "here" or some other dimension. OR, everything is eventually completely destroyed (big crunch?) and starts over with something completely different (but essentially the same). I do not believe that we are sent to either an eternal perfect heaven or an eternal hell, because it doesn't make sense, and falls out of everything that existence is. there are no LINES. there is no line of salvation. there can't be, because the people right where the line divides would be so similar that it would be absolutely unfair...and I, at least, believe that everything is fair and perfectly balanced. well, I know it is. (also, think karma, I guess.) That's a bit harsh. Their feelings might not be as layered, logical or substantial as yours, but that doesn't make them any less real. I struggle with this. Cogito, ergo sum. I feel that if you do not think, you are not. (in a sense.) I'm not saying you have to think exactly as I do for me to consider you "real", necessarily, but in a way, I do, because the way I think is...I would call it "tabula rasa", which is latin for "blank slate". (I'm not talking about the philosophy of tabula rasa, just using the term.) the way I think is this: I don't, until I'm faced with a specific situation/problem. do I think abortion is wrong? not until I know the facts about the specific situation. do I think incest is wrong? same thing. there are so many variables to everything, every problem, that I realize that what is true for one instance may be false in another. the truth is relative. in other words, I am completely open-minded. that is all I know. and I feel that only people who think like this, are worth anything at all, they are the only "real" people, the only people you can truely reach, connect with, human to human (or rather, spirit to spirit). anything else deserves death and destruction, in my eyes. or maybe, anything else IS IN ITSELF death and destruction. And Taosaur actually has a very good point. He did nothing more but turn the same principle you used back upon you. He insulted your intelligence by your inability to see the importance of compassion and cooperation, and expressed a justification in looking down his nose at you - to which, you got offended. It displayed that you actually have a fundamental understanding of why your own, judgmental stance is so controversial, when it's used against you. look...I am not a bad person. at least, I don't want to be. like I said, if I didn't care at all whether or not I was hurting people, I would not have made this thread. I think my initial post was not me saying "I think it's ok to step on people", but rather, "this is how things are, and I'm not outraged by it anymore. it just doesn't matter." I see things for what they are. a bunch of little gray dots, that make up a giant gray dot, that in turn is a little gray dot within another bunch of little gray dots. nothing moves, nothing changes, nothing is. we are all "moving around" in absolute nothingness...you know why? because existence is a balance of order and chaos. a perfect split. and I'm quite sure that it will always be that way. I don't know why I have this profound realization. it was bound to happen to someone someday to someone in evolution, and I am NOT saying I believe I'm the first. perhaps it was buddha? (I'm not trying to say I'm fully enlightened either, but maybe I am. +shrug+) you know, I just don't care. some people come to this point and kill themselves, some go on killing sprees, some land in mental institutions...well, that can't be true, oviously THOSE people weren't -quite- where I am. me, I lost all motivation. quit caring. quit my job (although that was actually in a manic phase, though I have not bothered to look for another since). do I feel this is "right"? hell no. I'm not stupid. I can see that the "right" thing for me to do would be to get a job, or go to college, and support myself. I just don't care at the moment, and I know that every day I wake up there is an equal chance that I will die, lose my mind, something great will fall in my lap, or I will suddenly feel extremely motivated...which is entirely possible, since I "suffer" (:|) from a perfectly fair case of manic depression. I say perfectly fair because it is not too extreme, not too mild. just right. I go through phases of euphoria, excitement, motivation, creativity and productivity, to phases of depression. I honestly believe I'm some kind of...special expression, a somehow "balanced" individual, some kind of higher intelligence, at the fringe of evolution, maybe. my viewpoint I've realized has provided me with a great sense of freedom, but at the same time, a feeling of imprisonment. I want desperately to meet others that think the way I do. and I think together we could probably do something good for the world, or just enrich ourselves. doesn't matter either way. yeah...I think I'm special. I have a god complex (and a devil complex?). I think I'm simultaneously god and satan. and I'm ok with that...I realize it doesn't mean anything, in the end. it sounds egotistical to say, sure. but I really don't believe I'm necessarily better than others. I just am, and they just are. I just know that nothing matters. do visit my thread about Morla, if you haven't. (that was a long, ridiculous, probably redundant rant, sorry. I want you to know that I really appreciate your time and replies, and you've helped me organize my thoughts. I've finally come to realize, YET AGAIN, what I knew all along...nothing matters. everything is the same. I just start caring too much sometimes, and get caught up in arguments and trying to decide what is "right", forgetting that all arguments are futile, meaningless, and what is right has already been decided, long ago.) I'm not sure that there is anything more I can say, or anything more anyone could say to me to change my mind. I think I've said it all. but, if you (or anyone else?) feels they have something to say or would like to refute anything I've said, I will read. and I'd LIKE that very much.

[jacobo]

shan, why would you even present that kind of an argument to a server like this? it's a waste of time (as you've discovered over the past four days). -jacob