Thread: does one deserve what one cannot protect?

Originally Posted by tkdyo

sounds like an excuse to me, are you saying then that the concept of evolution is dumb? Because that was what I was IMPLYING was responsible for us protecting people.. but apparently you didnt get it.

animals look out for themselves and their own. and I consider humans animals. nothing more. what about...survival of the fittest? isn't that the bottom line of evolution? maybe I just don't see how it fits with this topic because it's delving a little too deep, and seemed a little abstract...I don't know. that's why I considered the reply dumb, because it was so out there. why don't you elaborate? how does it fit? I am genuinely interested, especially if you really do know anything about evolution, besides uh, it's like scientific and stuff so I believe in it. (and I did NOT say that to insult YOU personally, it's just that I understand that evolution is a very complicated subject and most people I talk to have no idea what they're talking about. :\) please, elaborate.

Originally Posted by Invader

Is that just a premise for your proposed question, or is that what you personally believe in?

...a little of both?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Have you thought about becoming a television evangelist? What about beating up random retarded people?

you're either fucking with me or you didn't read my last reply. but I'll answer anyway: first thing, no, because ICP might put a hatchet in my face :(, and second thing no, because stupidity and retardation are two different things.

really, you cannot be serious.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

You're stating an antisocial position, corrosive to society. If you act on this worldview, society will enact increasingly harsh corrective measures to limit your sphere of influence, beginning with alienation from polite society and up to and including capital punishment.

oh, I'm pretty sure plenty of people are out there with this same philosophy and getting away with it with few or no problems. what do you think I'm talking about? going on killing sprees whenever I get the urge? seriously.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

If you're too stupid to recognize that compassion and cooperation are the means of attaining freedom, do you deserve what you cannot protect?

whoa. no need for that. there are a good lot of people that follow this philosophy that are plenty intelligent. I admit I am not the brightest crayon in the box, but why don't you try to understand this stance and its execution/implementation before you go calling me names :)

Originally Posted by rottingteeth

whoa. no need for that. there are a good lot of people that follow this philosophy that are plenty intelligent. I admit I am not the brightest crayon in the box, but why don't you try to understand this stance and its execution/implementation before you go calling me names

See, I was saying what you said, but to you, like you said it, to you. See?

Your position may be practiced with impressive convulsions of intellect, but it still demonstrates a failure of understanding, and brings ever greater internal and external pressures to bear upon those who pursue it. You're talking about economic and emotional cannibalism.

Originally Posted by rottingteeth

right, but I think all humans (or ok, at least THIS culture that I've grown up in, I don't know) are exposed to more or less the same shit. life and death, love and hate, positives and negatives, opposites and extremes, same shit. I think everyone is capable of waking up one day with the realization that
reading books + listening and making observations/taking notes = moar edumacation 4 my brain. right? :\

The fact of the matter is that we're not all exposed to the same shit. We may be introduced to the same concepts, but how significant is that, really? What differs is the extent to which we are made aware of the importance of these concepts. So many people don't understand how important knowledge is. The 'ride' of life is so much more enticing, because it's so much easier. If you can ride your way through life, without ever becoming aware of the joy (or importance) of driving...why would you ever want to drive?

You're speaking in retrospect, basically. You're speaking on the fulfillment you've attained from knowledge, but you're not speaking from a position that was never driven toward that fulfillment. There are so many people that don't understand the need for attaining such knowledge, so why should they be held accountable for not being on the same plane as others who see beyond their perspective, if they are simply unaware?

wut? I would think it would be relevant, what exactly do you mean? I'm all for it, really, if it's a little off-topic, start a new thread? either way I am very, very interested in hearing everything you have to say about this.

Well, I'd figured that your point was much less about why people should be be proactive in educating themselves than it was about why people who didn't educate themselves were open game for exploitation. I think these are two completely different concepts. It's even not so much "sloth" as it is "apathy." I can be a lazy motherfucker, but I'm not apathetic, when it comes to knowledge. I want to know how to protect myself and my interests. I want to understand the importance. But, I don't want to feel like I have to follow a standard. I want to feel that I can live my life the way I want to live it, and that I can let other people live their lives the way they wish to live them. I rap, and most of my subject matter is about the ignorant paradigms among the rap culture, so I have a lot to say about people who choose to live in ignorance, but I understand that there is a large population of people who live in ignorance but would actually change themselves for the better, if shown the importance/benefits of doing so.

If you spend your time taking advantage of people, you can't really know whether or not they are actually those kinds of people. You simply act on opportunity.

they may not have consciously meant to harm me. they may not do what they do thinking "I do what I do to hurt RT, take that." but through their selfish ignorance they really are hurting not just ME, but...everyone. all people, whether I personally care about them or not. everyone, including you.

Looking at life through those lenses, every child is actually hurting me as well. Should I take everyone - who hasn't come to a certain stage of development which defines such ignorance as harmful - as a personal threat? Or should I look at them as a person who simply hasn't been given perspective beyond what they're used to? You can't judge a person on their choices unless they are aware (completely) of their choices and their consequences.

care to elaborate? (I just don't see it)

Well, given your philosophy, how can you see yourself worthy of trust? Ever? If your philosophy is that it's excusable to take advantage of those too stupid to protect their assets, why would any cognizant person trust you? You're expressing (in no uncertain terms) that if you find someone unable to protect their own, you are likely to move in on them and take advantage. Such a person could never expect to find himself in a meaningful friendship or relationship, because you telegraph the idea that you will fuck them over, whenever most convenient for you.

that's good that you aren't trying to insult me, I figured you had just decided "welp, this guy's a douche." I mean, if I didn't care at all, I wouldn't have bothered to make this thread. anyway, golden rule...is the bottom line, I guess. I am trying to understand it. I'm not saying all this because I think I should be able to go around taking advantage of everyone, it's not all about me, because I really feel that if someone pulls one over on me...well, I think it's fair. really, I feel that if people are getting money out of me for nothing (for example), then it's my fault for not researching the product/seller. as far as being literally raped, I think I would blame myself for...walking the streets at night by myself, or leaving my door unlocked, or something (it depends on the situation). I do wonder if I would still think that way if it actually happened. I like to think I would not be a total hypocrite. can we really know ourselves? but that is a whole nother topic, one I've planned to make a thread about and probably will...

You're automatically assuming that being taken advantage of counts on your being neglectful. (Walking the streets at night / leaving the door unlocked.) In reality, this just isn't the case. Like I said, being diligent requires knowledge of the odds of the consequences. This, again, relies on experience. It's about trust and trust issues. You might think you're in a community where you don't have to be completely anal about locking your doors. Some people just aren't that cynical to where they believe someone is likely to walk into their home. You have people - even now - that will tell others about how 'where they're from they don't have to worry about people just invading their homes.' And it's true. Some people just don't find themselves as alert as others, and no one can really fault them except for those people who are aware of the alternative.

anyway, I digress. back to subject: it is interesting that you mention the human/animal difference. do you know anything about satanism? I admit that my knowledge of the philosophy is rather limited, but from what I gather, satanists embrace man's animal nature, and are all about shunning stupidity and bettering themselves. (I'm sure you are intelligent enough not to think that satanism is quite what the media portrays it to be...you know, sacrificing children and such...so I'm sure I don't have to explain that.)
yes, I would say that on this issue I take a very satanic stance. I've considered becoming a satanist for years now, but I'd like to know if that really is "wrong" and hurtful. this thread will certainly be helpful in making my decision.

I understand enough about Satan and Satanism to know that it's not really as it is portrayed. After all, Lucifer was simply an angel who was cast out because he refused to worship Adam simply on command. There are many animal instincts that I have no problem with advocating, but I'm just not the kind of person that condones stepping on the faces of other people just to get an elevated position.

I doubt that you've studied satanism, if you haven't, would you consider reading up on it? it really seems to me to be a very good way of life, and, at least as far as I've read, I actually think the world would be a better place if everyone was satanic. but that will never happen! satanism realizes that, it accepts that we will never reach a utopia, and basically says...live your live to the fullest, be the best you can be, for yourself and the ones you love. why live any other way? really.

I'm not religious enough to look at Satanism any different than any other religion. I live by a person code of ethics, and it's good enough for me. I understand the types of things that I would feel would impede upon me, and I try not to impede upon others in the same respect.

interesting...but like I said earlier, I think we are all exposed to more or less the same shit, and all capable of realizing that we should spend more time studying and less time watching tv. I actually think that MOST people are biologically/physically/whatevs INCAPABLE of wrapping their minds around that concept (an evolutionary thing, perhaps?). why bother trying to teach them? yes, I believe that SOME of them can be reached, but the majority I think is forever lost. they are born sheep and will die sheep, and nothing you ever say to them will ever "click". they have this metaphorical brick-wall of anti-reason around their heads, and the most reasonable statement will be but a scratch on the wall...

I don't think anyone is incapable. I think that they are so wrapped up in other sources of input that making an impact upon them is increasingly difficult. The 'anti-reason' you speak of is simply their under-exposure to the same variables which made you as capable of reason as you feel they are. They might have a passing familiarity, but obviously not on the scale you have, otherwise they would feel about any given situation exactly as you do.

they are robots. THEY are the "animals", if you ask me. no real thoughts, no real feelings, garbage in, garbage out existence.

That's a bit harsh. Their feelings might not be as layered, logical or substantial as yours, but that doesn't make them any less real.

really, when we talk about taking advantage of people, we should be more specific. because that could be anything from selling someone a faulty car, to literal rape.

I do NOT advocate either of those things. I do NOT however, have a problem with selling people things of no REAL value. by that I do not mean a product that does not do what it is supposed to do, what you SAY it will do (although I think even that depends), but things like porn, or things that are "cute" (just a couple examples), that don't have any REAL value. sex sells and so does cute. you and I know that. why not use it? it doesn't mean that you NECESSARILY have to sell things of poor quality.

But where does one draw the line between such acts? One man's 'rape' is another man's 'swindle'. There are different variables in what is actually being violated, but the fundamental concept is the same. You take what you want, by the inability of the other person to stop you. You exploit the weakness of others to advance yourself, with little regard for how much the act affects the target.

And Taosaur actually has a very good point. He did nothing more but turn the same principle you used back upon you. He insulted your intelligence by your inability to see the importance of compassion and cooperation, and expressed a justification in looking down his nose at you - to which, you got offended.

It displayed that you actually have a fundamental understanding of why your own, judgmental stance is so controversial, when it's used against you.