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    1. #1
      Member beautifulwoodenlegs's Avatar
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      So many paths, so little time.

      I have basically come to the crescendo of my learning experience(as i assume everyone is who writes in the present tense) and have come to a philosophical cross road. Til this point (i'm fixing to be a sophomore in college) i have spent my life in an endless pursuit of knowledge (as i assume most people are who have come across this site) and accepted recently it is impossible to know any absolute objective truth. (except for the truth : I know that I can not know) I'm familiar with agnosticism, but if you only accept that you can't know anything, how can you possibly create your values out of that and live a meaningful life?

      I've poured myself into philosophy and theosophy and now have come to the realization that there are numerous sets of conflicting: values, worldviews, schools of thought, religions, and moralities that have all had their hay-day in some culture at some point in history, only to be eclipsed by the next generation's, no matter how profound they seem at the time.

      So my question is this: How can you ever follow a philosophy or table of values, believing in something you know will inevitably be transcended and eclipsed by future generations of humans, even if you create that meaning yourself?

      Anyone who's been in a similar situation feel free to talk about the thoughts that influenced you.
      Thus the aesthetically sensitive man stands in the same relation to the reality of dreams as the philosopher does to the reality of existence; he is a close and willing observer, for those images afford him an interpretation of life, and by reflecting on these processes he trains himself for life. - Nietzsche

    2. #2
      What's up <span class='glow_006400'>[SomeGuy]</span>'s Avatar
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      If you knew you were wrong, why would you adopt the belief in the first place?

      Hey guys, I'm back. Feels good man
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    3. #3
      Member beautifulwoodenlegs's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by [SomeGuy] View Post
      If you knew you were wrong, why would you adopt the belief in the first place?
      lol thats exactly what i'm getting at.. you can never know if your belief is true, especially the fact that the majority of history's beliefs have been raped by science and logic or just completely unfounded
      Thus the aesthetically sensitive man stands in the same relation to the reality of dreams as the philosopher does to the reality of existence; he is a close and willing observer, for those images afford him an interpretation of life, and by reflecting on these processes he trains himself for life. - Nietzsche

    4. #4
      What's up <span class='glow_006400'>[SomeGuy]</span>'s Avatar
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      Well then, don't do theology and strange philosophies (it's turtles all the way down! +40 points if you got that.) and go with the proven, serious business science behind everything.

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    5. #5
      Member beautifulwoodenlegs's Avatar
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      I think science explains processes far too narrowly (only the observable universe)and covers the 'how's' not the 'why's'. And yup gotcha with the turtle reference
      Thus the aesthetically sensitive man stands in the same relation to the reality of dreams as the philosopher does to the reality of existence; he is a close and willing observer, for those images afford him an interpretation of life, and by reflecting on these processes he trains himself for life. - Nietzsche

    6. #6
      Drivel's Advocate Xaqaria's Avatar
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      You seem to ignore the gradual nature of truth. In 500 years, or 1 year, life on this earth may have come closer to the truth, but that doesn't mean the truths of the past are negated, they are simply built upon. Einstein replaced Newton, and yet Newton remains relevant and useful, just only in a certain context. The evolution of truth is only an evolution of context and applicability.

      The ability to happily respond to any adversity is the divine.
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    7. #7
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      You desire to live a meaningful life; innate and understandable. The Catholic religion will never be eclipsed. I'm not a follower, but I can tell you why if you are interested in following something concrete, with deep meaning, that won't be brought down.

      1. Metaphysical, (you probably learned this term through theosophy), So the religion is immune to science because you can just through out the metaphysical card and be granted a free pass. Science and Religion more often than not contradict each other, The Catholics know that. Aquinas saved their ass to such a great extent with his work on the "metaphysical" characteristics of the church. it's ineffable. Hurray immunity to science and logic! Your a free bird!

      2. It's focus is on the extrema of survival, namely a boundless ultimate survival of climatic existence (heaven). The most logically desirable trait of human existence. A very good advertising ploy that will keep the religion in business. Damn they were on the fucking game when they made this. Much better than Hades and his burning abyss.

      3. A great portion of the world is Catholic, enjoy similarities among your friends so there is no philosophical tension. Relaxes you with the juxtaposition of common subject matter, If that is what you desire. If you want to be different in that respect, it is up to you.


      Overall it's a sucker's bet that could give you the drive to stop getting discouraged with failed searching and let you thrive on existence, feel more alive. I feel like I have been in a very similar situation for as long as I know. I got very discouraged with my search of deeper meaning, using calculus and other sophisticated tools to explain to me my ultimate end. But I have learned to cope with my fundamentally meaningless survival. I.e... the positives in life. Make a decision so you can stop feeling so distraught. Begin enjoying existence and making the best out of it in any means. Good luck.

    8. #8
      Looking for you Arutad's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by beautifulwoodenlegs View Post
      So my question is this: How can you ever follow a philosophy or table of values, believing in something you know will inevitably be transcended and eclipsed by future generations of humans, even if you create that meaning yourself?

      Anyone who's been in a similar situation feel free to talk about the thoughts that influenced you.
      I've been thinking about this for a long time, too. It seems that the problem we have is our desire to be sure, to know the truth. Even saying that there's "no objective truth" is helpless in destroying that desire. Maybe it's helpless because we still believe that at some level, in future, absolute truths can be discovered, that not everything in this world is relative. Do you have this nagging feeling that it's possible in the long run?

      It's probably our brains that are wired in a way that we feel frustrated when we're wrong or might be wrong. There's no good objective reason for a feeling of being certain about things you think to matter as much as it does. It's merely a feeling!

    9. #9
      Sleeping Dragon juroara's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by beautifulwoodenlegs View Post
      So my question is this: How can you ever follow a philosophy or table of values, believing in something you know will inevitably be transcended and eclipsed by future generations of humans, even if you create that meaning yourself?

      what are you babbling about? there is no contradiction. the contradiction is entirely in your head.

      You asked, how can one follow a set of beliefs/philosophy knowing in the future it will be transcended? ....Well why not? What's the problem?

      The problem is in the 'ego', or that part of yourself that sees in dualistic terms. You're ego is making you feel that these philosophies MUST be ABSOLUTE. And if they aren't absolute, then they must be obsolete. And if it turns out they are obsolete...........why bother learning them at all?

      So you're ego puts you in a tight spot. That you either have full faith in these beliefs and philosophies. Or they are a waste of your time.

      Well the ego is always wrong. Always. It's very easy to spot the ego's lies when you understand it's always dualistic.

      The truth is, everything that is created will come to pass. Galaxies will die. Stars will die. Planets will die, and everything living on those planets will die. Hell, even Universe might even die. In the end the only thing that ever was, was the pure energy that gave all of these things form. Whether you take the spiritual meaning of these words, or the scientific meaning, it doesn't matter. It's exactly the same.

      Why is this important to understand that everything given form by energy will come to pass? Sure it's easy to understand this in terms of physical forms. Because it's easy to see how all physical things 'die'. But what about MENTAL FORMS. Mental forms still require energy to give it form, the energy of consciousness.

      All of our thoughts. All of our belief systems. All of our religions. All of our philosophies, they will all come to pass. No form, not even mental forms, last forever.

      So no. No philosophy, no religion, no belief system, not even science is absolute.

      So what is the absolute truth if all forms will come to pass? We can say the absolute truth transcends all other things. Including, transcends all other truths. That's the easiest and simplest terms you can have when dealing with the absolute truth. That which transcends.

      The moment you box it up into a clearly defined thing............ it's no longer the absolute truth, is it? By boxing it up all you did was create a thought form.

      When searching for the absolute truth a pattern begins to show up. The pattern is transcendence. Anything that helps you transcend helps bring you closer to the absolute truth. Spirituality helps us transcend because it challenges us to be more than we are. To even be more than just human. Science helps us transcend because it challenges long held beliefs. Even the long held beliefs it created.

      The most dangerous thing anyone can ever do is believe that a belief system has the absolute truth.

      But if you understand how you can use all of these various truths to help you, then these things are neither absolute....... or obsolete.

    10. #10
      Looking for you Arutad's Avatar
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      What a bunch of slogans from the books... It felt like reading a post from a robot-collector without its own thoughts.

      And you don't even make sense in the long run.

    11. #11
      DV8 Juritsu's Avatar
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      Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love... true love never dies. You remember that, boy. You remember that. Doesn't matter if it's true or not. You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in.

      -Hub, Second Hand Lions (2003)

      Some things can be worth believing in, whether they are true or not, 'suppose.
      The creature laughed, scornfully. "I," it said, "am afraid of nothing." "Nothing?" "Nothing," it said. "Are you extremely afraid of nothing?" "Absolutely terrified of it," admitted the dragon. "You know, I have nothing in my pocket, would you like to see it?" "No," said the dragon, uncomfortably, "I most definitely would not." There was flapping....and Charlie was alone of the beach.
      "That," he said, "was much too easy."

    12. #12
      Member beautifulwoodenlegs's Avatar
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      [QUOTE=Xaqaria;1139930]You seem to ignore the gradual nature of truth. QUOTE]

      I must do, because I wasn't aware there was any absolute truth discovered, let alone for it to evolve.

      Quote Originally Posted by Dreams4free View Post
      I got very discouraged with my search of deeper meaning, using calculus and other sophisticated tools to explain to me my ultimate end. But I have learned to cope with my fundamentally meaningless survival. I.e... the positives in life. Make a decision so you can stop feeling so distraught. Begin enjoying existence and making the best out of it in any means. Good luck.
      Ha, I liked that about catholocism, it seems you've found the loop hole in the system. So did you just adopt a nihilistic outlook eventually?

      Quote Originally Posted by Arutad View Post
      I've been thinking about this for a long time, too. It seems that the problem we have is our desire to be sure, to know the truth. Even saying that there's "no objective truth" is helpless in destroying that desire. Maybe it's helpless because we still believe that at some level, in future, absolute truths can be discovered, that not everything in this world is relative. Do you have this nagging feeling that it's possible in the long run?

      It's probably our brains that are wired in a way that we feel frustrated when we're wrong or might be wrong. There's no good objective reason for a feeling of being certain about things you think to matter as much as it does. It's merely a feeling!
      Dude, I completely identify with that. Yea, no matter how nonsensical it may seem, it feels like everything I have learned and continue to learn will someday be some tiny pieces in some "master equation" of absolute truth I eventually figure out. It's like I have all the pieces to the puzzle, but I am just waiting for some sublime truth to present itself to unify everything I've ever known about this life. It's such a futile gesture, but more appealing than any other illusion that's ever been granted to me... maybe that's why humans can't help but chase it.

      Quote Originally Posted by juroara View Post

      When searching for the absolute truth a pattern begins to show up. The pattern is transcendence. Anything that helps you transcend helps bring you closer to the absolute truth. Spirituality helps us transcend because it challenges us to be more than we are. To even be more than just human. Science helps us transcend because it challenges long held beliefs. Even the long held beliefs it created.

      The most dangerous thing anyone can ever do is believe that a belief system has the absolute truth.

      But if you understand how you can use all of these various truths to help you, then these things are neither absolute....... or obsolete.
      Yea, a lot of what you said keeps popping up in what I read- such as- "truth" is: "a mobile army of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphisms", and that adherence to any belief is instantly a handicap to the mind.. but I am just completely clueless as where to go from there.
      Thus the aesthetically sensitive man stands in the same relation to the reality of dreams as the philosopher does to the reality of existence; he is a close and willing observer, for those images afford him an interpretation of life, and by reflecting on these processes he trains himself for life. - Nietzsche

    13. #13
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      For a young child, everything is a learning experience. A child doesn't know what to expect. However, an adult will expect things to behave in certain ways, just having experienced them many times. For example, I'm not overly fascinated or shocked by my shadow anymore; I know what it is, why it is, and how it will behave. That's not the case for a 2 year old.

      The problem, then, is, I start to assume that "I've seen it all, heard it all, done it all..." the older I get. The older generation isn't necessarily out to break the laws of physics anymore, simply because "they've worked" reliably all their lives. But a young child might, in disbelief, look in amazement at the behavior of a falling ball.

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