Thread: God and DNA

Electro-magnetic forces on the various protein chains involved. Nothing more, nothing less. Each step in the cell division creates a knock-on effect that begins the next stage in the division. Like dominos falling over.

As Mario just stated, you are assuming that 'War and Peace' is an end point that the monkeys are working to. They aren't. They are randomly bashing away. WE are selecting for War and Peace by marking their homework. There will be at least 999,999 other books made by those monkeys too, several thousands of which will be very similar to War and Peace but not the same.

This is the entire problem with the million monkeys argument. You start it by assuming you're looking for a specific book. If you set them going to produce ANY book written in all of human history, you'd find that one would be randomly made given enough time. And this becomes more and more likely as you increase the number of monkeys from a million to a billion or beyond.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

You talk about centrosomes as if they are spiders with an intelligence to piece this things back together? Have you tried imagining in your head how this scenario looks like? What controls the arms if the spider?

Whoever said I thought of them as spiders to be controlled? As it turns out, centrosomes are controlled by (you guessed it) cellular processes. Specifically, this one right here.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

you have atoms -> molecules -> DNA. DNA is pretty basic and just a complex structure of atoms. Ofcourse atoms are the only way to create life as atoms are the only things in existence.

Robots are a perfectly valid form of different life in this universe.

Originally Posted by Mario92

If you were to see my former post, evolution isn't about working toward a specific finished product...it's about adaptation and survival. Anything that lives is a product of evolution. There is no need to "check" any given strand of DNA to see if it works. It does that on its own. If the organism survives, it's a success. If not, it's failure.

Good point I didn't take that into account.

So basically, without the existance of other creatures, there would be no evolution? If there is no natural selection, we don't further evolve? So according to this theory, humanity has stoppped evolving as we no longer have natural selection? Eveveryone gets married, nobody dies. Except for that loser that decided top jump under the train or that old man that couldn't cross the street fast enough. Is that how we are evolving?

If that is truly how we are evolving, through random mutation, than humanity is fucked, that is sure. There is no longer any natural selection. The only way to get deselected is to be borned handicapped or retarded.

Yet I am pretty confident, that we are evolving nonetheless. Our generation is so much smarter than the previous generation, without any natural selection involved. Is this cultural evolution then? How exaclty would cultural evolution work?

Originally Posted by Mario92

Whoever said I thought of them as spiders to be controlled? As it turns out, centrosomes are controlled by (you guessed it) cellular processes. Specifically, this one right here.

Then again, what controls celluar processes, what controls that which controls the celluar processes? You could go at this ad infinitum. Who is the master controller?

That's up for debate in the scientific community. We are now evolving socially rather than biologically is one view. We grow our own food, we sculpt our landscapes rather than having to conform to them. This takes a lot of selective pressure out of the game. Once we start colonising space and other worlds, our evolution will begin again as different gravities and environments start to act on us.

But its hard to tell because evolution occurs over such a long period of time. Its kind of like looking at your son or daughter for 5 minutes and proclaiming that they aren't aging because you can't see any difference in their appearance from one moment to the next.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

Then again, what controls celluar processes, what controls that which controls the celluar processes? You could go at this ad infinitum. Who is the master controller?

I already answered this. Electro-magnetic forces between protein chains and molecules. How do EM forces work? Come back in 20 years and ask a physicist, we hope to have an answer by then.

So basically, without the existance of other creatures, there would be no evolution? If there is no natural selection, we don't further evolve? So according to this theory, humanity has stoppped evolving as we no longer have natural selection? Eveveryone gets married, nobody dies. Except for that loser that decided top jump under the train or that old man that couldn't cross the street fast enough. Is that how we are evolving?

There are 7 conditions that must be satisfied if a population is to be considered "evolutionarily frozen" according to the Hardy-Weinberg Equilibrium Model. They are:
1. mutation is not occurring
2. natural selection is not occurring
3. the population is infinitely large
4. all members of the population breed
5. all mating is totally random
6. everyone produces the same number of offspring
7. there is no migration in or out of the population

As long as at least one of these things holds false, the population is still evolving. Humans have "random" genetic mutations, we have selective breeding, population migration, different numbers of offspring, and a finitely large population. And yes, we still have natural selection. Fatal genetic diseases, such as Sickle Cell Anemia and Huntington's Disease are forms of natural selection.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

Then again, what controls celluar processes, what controls that which controls the celluar processes? You could go at this ad infinitum. Who is the master controller?

DNA. Turns out, it adapted itself a means of replication over some billion years or so. This is probably why any early proto-strands died out and only the one(s) to win live on.

Originally Posted by Alextanium

That's up for debate in the scientific community. We are now evolving socially rather than biologically is one view. We grow our own food, we sculpt our landscapes rather than having to conform to them. This takes a lot of selective pressure out of the game. Once we start colonising space and other worlds, our evolution will begin again as different gravities and environments start to act on us.

But its hard to tell because evolution occurs over such a long period of time. Its kind of like looking at your son or daughter for 5 minutes and proclaiming that they aren't aging because you can't see any difference in their appearance from one moment to the next.



I already answered this. Electro-magnetic forces between protein chains and molecules. How do EM forces work? Come back in 20 years and ask a physicist, we hope to have an answer by then.

Why wait if you can figure it out yourself? Electromagnetic theories of consciousness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Suppose you live in the world, all alone, wouldn't you want to figure out science for yourself? How would you explain it? You do realize, that your logic and intelligence is as valid as any scientist? Einstein did all his experimentation inside his head, that is how he discovered general relativity, through imagination. So if you don't know the answer you will not even try to figure one out? You will just wait all your life until someone figured it out for you? Isn't that extremely lazy?

We are lucky to be with so many people trying to figure out science, but suppose it was just you and me what would be your guess?

Originally Posted by Mario92

DNA. Turns out, it adapted itself a means of replication over some billion years or so. This is probably why any early proto-strands died out and only the one(s) to win live on.

How exactly btw, does random mutation occur. You say DNA mutates randomly. But what does the mutating. Have you ever tried imagining this process inside your head? How exactly does a strand of proteins.. mutate?

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

How exactly btw, does random mutation occur. You say DNA mutates randomly. But what does the mutating. Have you ever tried imagining this process inside your head? How exactly does a strand of proteins.. mutate?

Mutation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kind of complicated stuff that you can't condense in a single sentence.

Ok but supposed these mutations which seem random are actually caused by an electromagnetic field that is conscious, then suddenly, the evolution theory would change into intelligent design. Think about that.

It is not so far fetched, considering the human mind, your mind, is an electromagnetic field which is conscious. I'm just saying, that if science would make this discovery, which is possible, then suddenly, we would have intelligent design just like that.

Every mutation has a cause. What is causing the mutation? This and that. What is causing this and that? You see there is a whole string of causes and effects to be explored.

"Tautomerism – A base is changed by the repositioning of a hydrogen atom, altering the hydrogen bonding pattern of that base resulting in incorrect base pairing during replication." What does the repositioning? Isn't his the work of the electromagnetic field? The only missing link the intelligent design here is that the random mutation is not random, but caused by the electromagnetic field.

Our minds are electromagnetic fields.. the DNA is surrounded by an electromagnetic field.. just saying this might be the perfect self-reflecting evolutionary mechanism we have been looking for. How you live your life, is how your DNA evolves. Not only during mating and natural selection, but mutation could occure during life itself. That however is just all assumption, but, it could be a possible future discovery, it doesn't contradict current science.

I've given most of the important input I can. I'll try to clarify a few things as they come up though.

DNA is a strand of sugars, phosphates and bases, not proteins. Proteins are what DNA codes for.

Mutations can happen in various ways. DNA replicates via an enzyme called DNA polymerase which makes errors (though very rarely). Chemical mutagens and radiation can also change the DNA structure.

All science is based on empirical evidence. Einstein developed relativity because the Michelson Morely experiment showed that the axioms of such a theory were correct.

There is nothing mysterious about electromagnetism. It is the reason for, for example, chemistry. Chemistry clearly causes consciousness. This does not somehow imply that consciousness can manipulate chemistry or electromagnetism at will, or... wherever that was going.

You're grasping at straws, genetic mutations are caused by all that shit in the link I just posted. Give yourself a day or two to read it, you might learn something. Approach the material with a blank mind instead of trying to adapt everything you read to creationism. Otherwise I could post whatever theory of nature and you'd just invent some link to god, you're trying to convince yourself, not others...

If we, in the future, master DNA, which will happen, and recreate the perfect human being, is that not creationism? If we master DNA and recreate new life forms, is that not creationism?

It will happen in the future. Science is progressing to the point of creationism. I'm pointing out that we are becoming Gods ourselves. We will, in the future, be able to write our own DNA and go even much much more futher than any idea of God we might have had.



How can you possibly know, that this scenario, which is going to happen for sure in the future and is already happening partially in the present, has not already happened in the past?

My intelligence and logic may be just as good as any scientist, but what you are describing is the difference between the scientific method (a way of determining how the world REALLY is, objectively) and the Aristotelian view that you can just 'figure out the world' from the comfort of your armchair without having to test anything. The problem with this approach is a fundamental one:

Human beings do not possess perfect rationality or logic, and are therefore able to make errors.

How do we correct for these errors? We test our ideas. In a laboratory. With the scientific method.

As for the EM theory of consciousness, this falls into the trap of the 'Law of Minimisation of Mystery': The way the mind works is mysterious and spooky (it is, we don't know how minds are made), the way DNA works is mysterious and spooky (its not, we know how DNA replicates), therefore the same mysterious and spooky process must be occurring in both.

And it starts the chicken and the egg all over again. How does DNA form/mutate? The EM field of the mind. How does the mind form? From the brain of an organism created out of cells containing DNA. It's circular. Circular logic is bad, bad, bad and should be avoided whenever possible.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

Suppose you live in the world, all alone, wouldn't you want to figure out science for yourself?

Had I the planet to myself, I would launch Survival Plan Alpha. It would work like this:

The first step would be to acquire adequate food, shelter, and water. I get water from a well, already purified. My housing is adequate, and my food supply good. These conditions satisfied, I can now move to step two.
A more pressing issue is electricity and access to the internet. Before power goes out for one reason or another, I need to get online, download, and print out absolutely as much information as I can within a limited time span. This information will be anything I deem of merit, including survival guides, pilot manuals, repair manuals, entertainment, a how-to on portable generators, how to make a solar powered generator, and so forth. On to step three:
Learn to fly. Besides being an awesome song, it is survival measure number three. Again, before power shuts down, I must locate a flight simulator and learn how to operate it so that I may learn how to fly a plane. Self-awarded pilot license in hand, I may proceed to step four:
Moar food. Everything has a shelf life, and things like meat and anything refrigerated or frozen is going to be hard to come by after the freezers thaw out. Therefore, I must act swiftly to transport as much as possible to a place on the planet that always maintains temperatures below freezing. Here, I will set up a massive food reserve, possibly by using jet airplanes. My food situation secure for the foreseeable future, I can move on to step five:
Plan for the future. I'm thinking large garden. Tropical fruit is some of the most nutritious and fast growing fruit available. It is also very tasty. With that in mind, I will locate and establish an orchard, complete with well-driven irrigation systems. This will secure my food supply in a longer run, and also negate the frequent need to travel to the Arctic Circle every time I feel like eating. Thus, on to step six:
Water. Water needs to be purified. I also need a source of water. Groundwater is generally good, but if that runs out, I need a plan B. I know of a highly advanced filtration system. I will acquire several of these and keep them on hand if the need for them arises. Step seven:
Luxury goods. Mansion, island, pina coladas on a beach, whatever works. When this gets boring, it's time for step 8:
Not losing my mind. This is the hardest part of living by oneself. I'm an introvert by nature, but eventually, the crushing loneliness will set in. I will need a companion, and being that I'm the only human left on earth, this will likely fall to an animal of some sort...probably a dog. With luck, I'll have read this little survival manual of mine and remembered to find a dog before now, since any left in the pound or trapped at home are likely dead by now...as are any that couldn't make it in the wild. A Golden Retriever would be nice, as would a sheepdog or even Pomeranian. My new friend, er, befriended, I can move on to step 9:
Survive. By whatever means necessary. Because of the nature of gasoline, I only have so many trips before it all turns to varnish and I'm left without any transportation other than a horse-drawn carriage. On top of that, horses need oats, which I will need to learn how to farm, acquire, or stockpile in ample quantity. Before being cut off from my frozen stockpile, I will need to learn how to hunt and kill, or else how to farm cattle. My future will be filled with trial and error as I learn to enjoy the simpler things in life while I slowly go insane. I will need to learn my way around at least basic pharmaceuticals, and how to diagnose myself for potentially fatal conditions. Assuming I live an adequately healthy lifestyle, there is but one thing left to do:
Die. It has been a good life. I never thought for a moment I'd actually be the last person on earth, but here I am. My health failing, a chronic pain in my back, and my body weary and weather-beaten, it is time to shuffle off this mortal coil...in the most awesome way possible. With my last ounces of strength, I will take out the speedboat I've been keeping sheltered for decades and fill the modified engine with ethanol. I'll put on the paragliding harness, point the boat out into the gulf, and take off at full speed. I'll increase my elevation higher and higher, soaring hundreds of feet above the water. Then I'll cut the cable, slide out of the harness, and plummet to my death.

And thus, the chapter on human history comes to a close. It's been an interesting existence. I can safely say that nobody ever thought it would end like this.

Actually that's not what the EM theory of consciousness is at all, that's just what you're reading into it. But my original point still stands.

I disagree there, Alex. The problem is not with a human's powers of logic. Given a set of axioms and laws of inference, we are capable of making logical arguments of total rigour. The reason that the Aristotelian approach is nonsense is because it is by definition impossible to attain true axioms via a priori deduction. They must be attained by observation of the real world; science.

Originally Posted by Alextanium

And it starts the chicken and the egg all over again. How does DNA form/mutate? The EM field of the mind. How does the mind form? From the brain of an organism created out of cells containing DNA. It's circular. Circular logic is bad, bad, bad and should be avoided whenever possible.

Ok good point, you need a lab, but not for the discussion about logic itself. Logic, the tool with which we determine the test results! That tool, is the most important tool. Our inherent logic. And without our imagination, we could never come up with any experimentation to start with. But I agree, I am also for the scientific method, and I only fully accept that which is evidenced. But there is a slight flaw about the scientific method. Suppose we live in the matrix, then it would only be possible to figure out the truth through logic, and not through emperical evidence? Do you understand this point?

If we would truly live in the matrix, science would go in circles, and logic would be the only way out. If all our emperical evidence is actually generated by


Im afraid circular logic, is exactly the logic this universe uses.. chicken and egg problem.. big bang problem.. all circular issues... right? So maybe we need to adapt a circular logic or we will never be able to figure out these issues..



@Mario: lol.. cool story bro

Originally Posted by Xei

I disagree there, Alex. The problem is not with a human's powers of logic. Given a set of axioms and laws of inference, we are capable of making logical arguments of total rigour. The reason that the Aristotelian approach is nonsense is because it is by definition impossible to attain true axioms via a priori deduction. They must be attained by observation of the real world; science.

In that case you aren't really disagreeing with me, you're just elaborating on a vague point I made The second part of your paragraph is what I was banging on about. Quantum mechanics is a good example of something that MUST be sought after with experimentation, because the quantum realm operates in a way we are not accustomed to perceiving.

RE: EM Consciousness hypothesis

I just recently read a few papers written by David Chalmers (that the wiki link references), and he brings up a point about the EM theory of consciousness that it fails to answer.

Proposal: The 40-70hz oscillating EM field of the brain is the mechanism of consciousness.
Rebuttal: WHY does the 40-70hz EM field carry with it the phenomena of experience? Why doesn't it all just go on 'in the dark' without a person to perceive anything at all.

Until the second question has an answer (which many philosophers feel may be impossible), you're left standing with the rest of us in Unknown Land.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

Im afraid circular logic, is exactly the logic this universe uses.. chicken and egg problem.. big bang problem.. all circular issues... right? So maybe we need to adapt a circular logic or we will never be able to figure out these issues..

The chicken and egg riddle is entirely solvable (as I believe Xei eluded), the fact that we still don't fully understand the early universe under the Big Bang theory doesn't make it circular logic.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

God and DNA
DNA consists out of the molecules T G C A, which in turn consist out of H N C O. Water, Fire, Earth, Air. The 4 elements.

DNA is written as a language, with sentences, words, paragraphs, punctuation, and it is fractally encoded, very much like a "zip-file" on a computer. If DNA is written, who is the writer?

So science discovers, that each cell contains an entire book, full of information about creation written in an unknown language, but it's a language nonetheless, yet they never stood still and thought that maybe someone might have written the language? So what is wrong with scientists, are they all extremely stupid or what? I mean, seriously. The very definition of a language is to communicate, the very definition of communication is interaction between intelligence. How can scientists not see the intelligence behind DNA?

Science claims DNA is randomly generated. But can you randomly generate a work of William Shakespeare? Humans are tiny bit more complex than a book tho. Imagine finding a book on the moon. And then science would claim, the book was randomly generated, and it was not written by an intelligence. This is exactly what science is claiming about DNA. We discover DNA as a coherent, foreign language, put together in words, sentences, paragraphes, chapters and then in books, and the nwe go claim this was all random generation? Random mutation???


So what the hell is wrong with scientists? How can they, out of all people, be so extremely blind? If you have a book, there is obviously an author, as simply as that. Or did the book write itself? How would that work? But even if the book would write itself, the book would still be written.. you see, there is no escape from the fact that there is an intelligence behind the writing no matter how you put it.

I'm too lazy to read the rest of this thread because I have a feeling its gonna be under fire what ever you say

But, I just wanted to say DNA IS FLIPPIN AWESOME! How about that DNA magically making light photons conform to its matrix? (super sweet)

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

If we, in the future, master DNA, which will happen, and recreate the perfect human being, is that not creationism? If we master DNA and recreate new life forms, is that not creationism?

It will happen in the future. Science is progressing to the point of creationism. I'm pointing out that we are becoming Gods ourselves. We will, in the future, be able to write our own DNA and go even much much more futher than any idea of God we might have had.



How can you possibly know, that this scenario, which is going to happen for sure in the future and is already happening partially in the present, has not already happened in the past?

This fails to answer the ultimate question, however. It only serves to move the same question to a different planet.