Thread: Anyone else here Buddhist?

Originally Posted by StonedApe

http://www.dreamviews.com/f37/boy-di...dicine-125904/
I'll resist the urge to write a long winded response about how prayer actually causes suffering(dependency) in many cases.

This is a predictable strawman.

I never said to pray to Avolokitesvara for health. I said that s/he is as real as a tree as can be verified by honestly praying to her/him. I cited 'feeling the compassion of all the Buddhas" as the effect of doing such. S/he is also as real as the medicine/operation/what-have-you that could have saved the boy's life. The effect of prayer is strongly affected by what is being prayed for, what the motivation for prayer is and the manner in which subsequent events are interpreted. If the cited effect of taking the medicine was fixing the disease from which the boy was suffering, then that would clearly have been the move to make.

How does prayer lead to dependency? I think that if you carefully examine this assertion you will find that it is always something else that actually leads to the dependency. Prayer is a tool to be used in the same way as medicine, meditation, science or yoga. Perhaps the 'something else' is picking the wrong tool for the job? Perhaps that's motivated by attachment to a particular world view? Are you demonstrating attachment to a particular world view here? Are you allowing your preference for one way of interpreting sensations (i.e. personally constructing your own 'reality') to interfere with your ability to accept tools that are rooted in another method?

What's really going on here?

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

This is a predictable strawman.

I never said to pray to Avolokitesvara for health. I said that s/he is as real as a tree as can be verified by honestly praying to her/him. I cited 'feeling the compassion of all the Buddhas" as the effect of doing such. S/he is also as real as the medicine/operation/what-have-you that could have saved the boy's life. The effect of prayer is strongly affected by what is being prayed for, what the motivation for prayer is and the manner in which subsequent events are interpreted. If the cited effect of taking the medicine was fixing the disease from which the boy was suffering, then that would clearly have been the move to make.

How does prayer lead to dependency? I think that if you carefully examine this assertion you will find that it is always something else that actually leads to the dependency. Prayer is a tool to be used in the same way as medicine, meditation, science or yoga. Perhaps the 'something else' is picking the wrong tool for the job? Perhaps that's motivated by attachment to a particular world view? Are you demonstrating attachment to a particular world view here? Are you allowing your preference for one way of interpreting sensations (i.e. personally constructing your own 'reality') to interfere with your ability to accept tools that are rooted in another method?

What's really going on here?

I was just talking about prayer generally. In your first post you were obviously talking about Avalokitesvara but in the second one it seemed you were just talking about prayer in general, including christian prayer etc.

With regards to dependency I'm talking about looking to a messiah or God or guru for your salvation or enlightenment(who are you praying to?). Do I need to elaborate? I'm assuming your quite aware of how this works. It is extraordinarily common.

Originally Posted by StonedApe

I was just talking about prayer generally. In your first post you were obviously talking about Avalokitesvara but in the second one it seemed you were just talking about prayer in general, including christian prayer etc.

Sure. Avolokitesvara is just an example. Substitute with Jesus if you want. Jesus wasn't just good, he was good enough. He would make a fine example.

With regards to dependency I'm talking about looking to a messiah or God or guru for your salvation or enlightenment(who are you praying to?). Do I need to elaborate? I'm assuming your quite aware of how this works. It is extraordinarily common.

This was really addressed in my last post. The question is not so much one of who one is praying to as it is one of who is doing the praying. If you just meditate on emptiness then it should really all be clear...

If there is a car coming at me, I do not want to feel the love of my father that is in heaven, I want to get out of the way of the car. Hence prayer would probably be the wrong tool. Walking or running might be a good move. If there was some diety that you knew of and had direct experience with that could consistantly and rapidly make you levitate over the car, that would be fine too.

If I want to free myself from the defilements of greed, hatred and delusion, then I don't want to just feel Jesus's love. I want to find them within myself and uproot them. If there was a diety to do it for me, that would be awesome too. I don't know of such a diety.

If, in going to uproot the three defilements, I run across thoughts such as "I'm not worth it" or "I can't do it" or "I don't deserve it", then feeling the love of Jesus, Avolokitesvara, or some other diety, bodhisattva, angel or guru could very well help me to reject identification with such thoughts and just let them pass as transient phenomena.

See what I'm saying? Reality is the thusness of here and now and that's where progress happens. In the here and now of direct experience Jesus is no more or less a figment of the imagination than the chair that you are sitting on or the imagination that is doing the imagining. Sit and feel pressure. Pray and feel love and wisdom. I would no more try to kill bacteria with love and wisdom than I would try to develop my compassion with antibiotics.

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

If, in going to uproot the three defilements, I run across thoughts such as "I'm not worth it" or "I can't do it" or "I don't deserve it", then feeling the love of Jesus, Avolokitesvara, or some other diety, bodhisattva, angel or guru could very well help me to reject identification with such thoughts and just let them pass as transient phenomena.

Maybe you use "prayer"(this doesn't really sound like prayer to me) to help you see the emptiness of things, but that's not what most people use it for. Do you disagree?

If you can use prayer to help you find wisdom and compassion then go for it, but it isn't needed. I think there are much more effective methods out there.