Thread: Is the Bible the true word of God?

I heard some reporter discovered they were CGI fakes. He announced it on the news at 10 and pointed out all the little mistakes they had made in the footage. Guess what? He got fired. And people say there isn't endemic censorship in the news. LOL!

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

I wish I was half as smart as Ne-yo and able to give such a defense as he!

I have been enjoying this thread though. There's a ton of info to digest. Well done to both sides of the argument!

Thank you Zhaylin that means a lot coming from you. You are just as smart as me however. I watch a lot of what you say and you impress me with your level of scriptural knowledge. You know truth and you are extremely informative. The Atheist here who doesn't believe in a God but continue to venture into a R/S forum, day in and day out are the one's that are clueless. They come here for a reason. See what they haven't come to accept and understand is essentially the fact that something drives them here, they don't know why they come but they just know they need to be here.

@Sparitate - I have to say. I'm surprised you even responded. You're a brave man or a pain freak. Either way, I would suggest for you as well as other Atheist here. If you expect to sleep well tonight tucked away with your nice little Atheistic beliefs then I suggest you not read the following.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Pretty much the entire academic body of prehistoric anthropology disagrees with you, soooooooo I'm going to trust the guys (and gals) with the doctorates...

Yea some people let others do all the work to give them an understanding of certain issues. A little common sense can get you very far in life and it doesn't take a doctorate to acquire one. God gave you common sense you should do yourself a huge favor and utilize it for once.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Some of this is actually right! Yes Homo neanderthalensis is a different species than Homo sapiens sapiens, I never said otherwise.

Good we agree that Neanderthals and Humans are not the same species.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

There are some MINOR differences in genome between Neanderthals and modern humans, which is to be expected since we still both share the genus Homo (no toilet humour plz).

No, like I stated before there are some SIGNIFICANT differences between Neanderthals and Modern Humans. These differences are not minor as you're stating.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

• Some of the Neanderthal genes involved in skin and hair consists of a different pigmentation and hair color.
  This makes sense because they are a different species.
• There is a difference in the gene which involves skull development.
  Makes sense also because they are a different species.
• There is a difference in genes which corresponds to the development of the clavicle and the rib cage.
  This definitely makes a lot of sense considering Neanderthals had a barrel shape chest significantly different than that of Humans.
• There is a difference involving metabolism.
  Which makes sense because Neanderthals are cold adapted and so would have a different type of metabolic profile than Humans.
• There is a difference in genes that correlates to cognitive development.
  Which actually supports the fact that Neanderthals are part of God's created "Animal Kinds" and have no relation to Humans. In short, Neanderthals lack the "Image of God" whereas Humans having advance cognitive capabilities.

Also

Originally Posted by The Washington Post

The Neanderthal versions of genes differ from the human versions by one or more DNA letters, known as nucleotides, in the string of thousands of letters that make up a gene. The Neanderthal versions are salted through the 20,000-gene human genome in no particular order. Whether they endow their holders with certain traits or hazards isn't known.

On the other hand, there are dozens of genes (and even some long stretches of DNA encompassing numerous genes) that are distinctly different between modern humans and Neanderthals.
Washingtonpost.com

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Finally, Neanderthals DID NOT evolve into modern humans (I never said otherwise), they were a separate, more primitive species that once coexisted with modern humans.

Okay, good, so Neanderthals didn't evolve into modern Humans. We agree there. So help me understand something. If Modern Humans like Europeans for instance didn't evolve from Neanderthals then explain to me who did Europeans evolve from?

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Except for the small amount of genetic material that was passed on to some modern humans due to interbreeding, Neanderthals are an evolutionary dead end.

Let's look a little further into this and give the readers some background on this whole Neanderthal and Human interbreeding thing.

This news item is based on 2 papers published in the 2010 May 7th issue of Science titled "A Draft Sequence". The research was headed up by a Scientist named Svante Paabo of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Germany. Who has made a name for himself by pioneering and advancing acient DNA analysis particularly, isolation and characterization of DNA from Neanderthal specimens. They had about 20 different mtDNA sequences available to them that they isoloated from Neanderthals. In which 5 of them are the complete mtDNA genome and they’ve been working for a number of years getting the nuclear genome from 3 speciesmans found in Croatia and this particular work claim to have uncovered evidence by analysis which was a draft sequence of the gneome. They claim to have evidence of low level interbreeding. They’ve also done some comparison of the genetic difference between Neanderthals and Humans.
The Washington Post

The DNA that they isolated from Neanderthals was from 3 different bones representing 3 distinct individuals that were recovered in a cave in Croatia. 2 of the bones were dateable using carbon 14 dating 1 bone at 38,000 and another bone at 44,000 and the 3rd one was not dateable but presumably was in that ball park. They found the 3rd in a layer between the 38 and the 44 so they were presuming it dates between 38,000 and 44,000. So these are 3 individuals that more or less lived closely at the same time period and in the same geography and using the same cave. The gnomes that they have from the Neanderhtals are a composite from those 3 individuals. They have 4 billion genetic letters that they’ve sequenced which essentially covered the Neanderthals gnome about a one third fold coverage but they only got information on about two thirds of the genome. Meaning one third is still intractable but they got methods that they are working on to extract that additional information which they HAVEN'T extracted at this time.

Now, they’ve compared the Neanderthal genomes to that of 5 complete human gnomes that they’ve sequenced. One from France, representing European groups one from China Representing Asian people groups. Papa New Guinea specimen representing Oceanic species and 2 African specimen’s one from South Africa and the other from West Africa.

Now this is something of high importance to point out from the published papers.

Originally Posted by Washington Post

With the help of a pinch of fossil bone dust, scientists have discovered that modern human beings interbred with Neanderthals tens of thousands of years ago, and that 1 to 4 percent of the genes carried by non-African people are traceable to the much-caricatured, beetle-browed cavemen.

Dr. Svante Paabo was asked a few questions during the news conference.

Q. When is your team going to have a complete genome for the Neanderthal?
A. "we’ll never have a finished sequence for the Neanderthal the way we have for a mouse”.
Q. How many Sub-Saharan Africans did you have on your team handling the samples?
A. "Well, that’s an interesting question”.

hmmmm. Now doesn't this strike you as odd? When you see this,

Scientists have discovered that modern human beings interbred with Neanderthals tens of thousands of years ago, and that 1 to 4 percent of the genes carried by non-African people are traceable to Neanderthals.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Not exactly sure where you got this, Neanderthals had a larger cranial volume than modern humans and had a complex language system.

Not exactly sure why you didn't know any of this as an evolutionist. Also it is NOT A FACT that Neanderthals had a complex language system. It's only suggested.

Originally Posted by New York Times

Neanderthals Had Important Speech Gene, DNA Evidence Shows

By NICHOLAS WADE
Published: October 19, 2007

Neanderthals, an archaic human species that dominated Europe until the arrival of modern humans some 45,000 years ago, possessed a critical gene known to underlie speech, according to DNA evidence retrieved from two individuals excavated from El Sidron, a cave in northern Spain.

The new evidence stems from analysis of a gene called FOXP2 which is associated with language. The human version of the gene differs at two critical points from the chimpanzee version, suggesting that these two changes have something to do with the fact that people can speak and chimps cannot.

The genes of Neanderthals seemed to have passed into oblivion when they vanished from their last refuges in Spain and Portugal some 30,000 years ago, almost certainly driven to extinction by modern humans. But recent work by Svante Paabo, a biologist at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, has made it clear that some Neanderthal DNA can be extracted from fossils.

Dr. Paabo, Dr. Johannes Krause and Spanish colleagues who excavated the new bones say they have now extracted the Neanderthal version of the relevant part of the FOXP2 gene. It is the same as the human version, they report in today's issue of Current Biology.

Because many other genes are also involved in the faculty of speech, the new finding suggests but does not prove that Neanderthals had human-like language.
nytimes.com

This doesn't state specifically that Neanderthals had a complex language faculty, it only makes a suggestion.

Originally Posted by Archaeology Institute of America

By comparing the Neanderthal FOXP2 gene to the modern human and chimpanzee versions of the gene, Pääbo believes he can determine whether Neanderthals were capable of developing complex languages
www.archaeology.org

This also doesn't make the bold assertion as you have, stating Neanderthals had a complex language system. Paabo hasn't even analysed it to make that determination in the past 5 years of even having access to the FOXP2 gene. So yes, your statement is untrue.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

They also buried their dead, sometimes with items ritualistic in nature. A possible sign in the belief of an afterlife?

I doubt it and you need to seriously open your mind further and stop being so one-tracked. I thought you Atheist were supposed to be thinkers with a high degree of logic, capable of thinking outside of the box? What's happening here?

Originally Posted by Local Histories.org

Neanderthal burials
We do not know if the Neanderthals had any kind of religion. They did bury their dead under cave floors but that may simply have been a way of removing a nuisance that would attract predators. It doesn't necessarily mean they believed in an afterlife. It is true that bodies were found with animal bones on them or around them but it is not clear if they were placed there deliberately. The Neanderthals left clutters of flints and bones lying on the floors of their caves. In time they would be buried and forgotten. When the cave floor is excavated it might look as if a body was deliberately buried with bones on or around it.

One Neanderthal grave was found with flower pollen on it. That may mean the dead person was buried with flowers but it has been suggested the pollen was introduced by burrowing rodents.

Some dead Neanderthals were buried in the foetal position as if they were sleeping. Perhaps they were deliberately buried to resemble a sleeping person. However that may simply have been the easiest way to bury a body.
www.localhistories.org/neanderthal

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Of course they didn't believe in Christian god, he was invented tens of thousands of years later by an israeli tribe.

Well, this I agree with. Considering the Israeli tribes were created in the Image of God as like all Modern Humans and were created after animals were created. Animals like Neanderthals lack the Image of God. It is impossible for my dog to grasp the concept of God. This holds true for ALL ANIMALS including Neanderthals which are animals.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Humans and Neanderthals having the capability of interbreeding means that our genomes and chromosomes are SO CLOSE that we are compatible to produce offspring. The ONLY reason this is possible is because we share a RECENT common ancestor. Understand? We can't make goat-human hybrids no matter how much those rednecks try because our biology is too different. We can with Neanderthals because we have STRONG genetic links, so much so that the offspring produced aren't even sterile (as is the case with most inter-species hybrids).

Whats funny is that Scientist also states the genetic difference between humans and chimps is less than 2%. Meaning we also have a STRONG genetic link but isn't it weird that Humans and Chimps cannot produce hybrids? Also based off the information I gave you up top which I surely hope you take heed to. You may need to seriously think about whether or not Europeans really do have Neanderthals genes within them. The extremely low level evidence of breeding suggest that the nDNA may have been contaminated especially considering there were no Sub-Saharan's on the research team and considering there were absolutely NO evidence of interbreeding found within the mitochondria DNA of Neanderthals.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

This is all nonsense and has nothing to do with what I posted. You're just trying to tip-toe around the insurmountable evidence that modern humans have ancestors common to other forms of early humans.

So once again who did Europeans evolve from?

Originally Posted by Spartiate

Bravo, now what exactly makes that untrue for H. sapiens sapiens?

What you mean Bravo? You still stuck with explaining who did modern humans like that of Europeans evolve from.

Originally Posted by Spartiate

You're actually a hominid... Open up a textbook:

Really so as you being a "hominid" who would be your direct predecessor?

Originally Posted by Sparitiate

Animals > Chordates > Mammals > Primates > Hominids > Homo (which I'm pretty sure is what you mean when you say "hominid", hominids are all the great apes: chimpanzees, gorillas, humans and orangoutangs) > Homo sapiens (sapiens).

Dude this seriously looks silly. Up there you stated Humans are hominids. Then here you make the assertion that Hominids are a distinct species different than that of Humans. Which one is it? Because this looks ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Sparitate

Not sure what that quote means if anything.

"Kind", Created Kind, Genesis Kind or Original Kind. Derives from the Biblical account of God's created week by the various animals and plants created sharing a common ancestry. For instance my Dog ancestry would consist of the "original canine kind" As there are no predecessors and the this particular structure of Wolf which did not evolve from anything else.

And yes I've heard of Canis lepophagus. It doesn't prove anything.

Originally Posted by Sparitate

I have no idea what you're trying to say here... In any case, just try finding a researcher in the field that doesn't believe that modern humans descend from an earlier species.

I don't need to find a researcher in the field because I'm not arguing with them. I'm arguing with you. So explain to me who did modern humans descend from exactly? What is the name of the species that evolved into modern humans?

Originally Posted by Sparitate

Oh yeah, by the way... Where, besides in your head, did you get your ideas about "Adam and Eve"?

You're in an R/S forum where do you think the idea of Adam and Eve transpired from. Stop trying to divert the topic.

Originally Posted by Sparitate

All those things you mentioned happened in the last century. Around the time Jesus was supposedly around we were still fighting with spears. Hell you can find a bunch of jungle tribes TODAY that are still fighting with spears, and probably have no clue what an atom is. Are they not human?

Humans fighting with spears some tens of thousands of years ago is irrelevant compared to Millions and Millions of years of just chugging along without an significant increase of complex development of any kind. Bottom line is that advance cognitive capabilities did not happen until Humans came into existence. We may still have tribes in the jungle that are Modern Humans but you and I are having this argument over a system of highly complex network infrastructures that spans thousands and thousands of miles and guess what? You and I are classified as Modern Humans.

Originally Posted by Sparitate

How many rocks have you found that look remotely like that?

Weather and Erosion can create some pretty cool things. Looks like a lions head. It even has paws and fangs..lol How freaky is that?



How about this one. Looks like a human skull huh?



Now look at the rock you displayed.



Nature can bring fourth elaborate detailed structures like the Lion photo and the Skull photo but is not capable of bringing fourth this rock with no significant detail? Are you kidding me??

Originally Posted by Sparitate

It has undeniable human-like features, a symmetry that would be remarkable if natural. I obviously didn't pick a random picture of a rock on the internet, the Venus of Tan-Tan as it's called is a well known artifact. Ignore it if you will, it's not necessary to prove my point here, I wasn't there to take a picture of it being made 300,000 years ago.

I know you didn't pick a random picture I've seen this rock before. Just as those rocks formations I've shown you above this one is more than likely the result of a Geofact The detail in the rocks photos I've shown are far more elaborate than the Venus of Tan-Tan rock you've shown us. If nature can create detail in rock formations as elaborate as the photos I've produced it surely can create this low level detailed rock that looks like a gingerbread man cookie.

Originally Posted by Sparitate

"The last glacial period was the most recent glacial period within the current ice age occurring during the last years of the Pleistocene, from approximately 110,000 to 10,000 years ago.[1]"

So what. It's obvious that this last glacial period posed no significant threat to humans beings. We're still here. Once again diversion.

Sorry man, You're just gonna have to wait. Besides you're not all that interested in what I have to say right? I mean does it make sense for you to really have anticipation to hear what I have to say being that I'm a stupid Christian as you so plainly put it.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Sorry man, You're just gonna have to wait. Besides you're not all that interested in what I have to say right? I mean does it make sense for you to really have anticipation to hear what I have to say being that I'm a stupid Christian as you so plainly put it.

Source?

Do you or do you not think that Christians are stupid?

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Do you or do you not think that Christians are stupid?

Where did I "so plainly put it" that I think Christians are stupid? That was my question ("source??).

Right and I answered your question with a question but since you didn't answer it then I'll assume my original statement was true. There's your source.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Right and I answered your question with a question but since you didn't answer it then I'll assume my original statement was true. There's your source.

You've failed to show where I said I think Christians are stupid. The honest thing to do would be to recant your statement.

Are you calling me a liar?

Liar.

EDIT:

You may be confusing Blueline with me. I've said that Christians are stupid (or close to it) plenty of times. It boils down to not being able to apply basic logic the the universe and conclude that it's at odds with a "loving" god.

I already know your position PS. :p

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Are you calling me a liar?

Yes. You falsely attributed a statement to me.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

I already know your position PS. :p

Right. The point is that you clearly don't know Blueline's. Even if he thinks you're an idiot (and, frankly, I'd be surprised if he didn't), it would be out of character for him to actually call you out on it. He'll call you out on particular bullshit statements that you make but I would be very surprised to see him throw a personal insult at you.

EDIT:

Also, can I take your lack of response to mean that you believe that your god didn't in fact drown a shit load of people on friday? Or would you like to provide an alternative answer to Xei's question?

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

Right. The point is that you clearly don't know Blueline's. Even if he thinks you're an idiot (and, frankly, I'd be surprised if he didn't), it would be out of character for him to actually call you out on it. He'll call you out on particular bullshit statements that you make but I would be very surprised to see him throw a personal insult at you.

I try to make personal attacks a rarity, but to be fair, I did imply that he is a fool in my post on page 3 or so (which he still hasn't replied to despite multiple lengthy replies to Spartiate).

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

Yes. You falsely attributed a statement to me.

Ok So you do not think Christians are stupid and in light of that I'll recant that statement and I'll offer my apologies to you. I apologize.

So PhilospherStoned What do you think the point of the matter is?

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

Right. The point is...

It doesn't matter what you think the point is!

Originally Posted by PhilospherStoned

Also, can I take your lack of response to mean that you believe that your god didn't in fact drown a shit load of people on friday? Or would you like to provide an alternative answer to Xei's question?

Well Xei is not here right now and when Xei get's here then I'll answer it.

Neyo, I don't know which is more pathetic...that you clearly and so blatantly ignore the masses of evidence that contradict your beliefs in order to preserve them in willful ignorance, or your incredible pompousness and hypocrisy. You claim to seek truth. You claim that the best and brightest minds the world has ever known are misguided, and that those who believe anything they say for even a moment are only sheep. To back up your claims, you deliberately search for pseudo-science and grasp at straws, presenting non-scientific "arguments" as if they are to be treated seriously. At the same time, you believe the fairy tales of 2000 year old humans with no evidence whatsoever. If believing in a god makes it easier to sleep at night, fine. If believing in one brings you comfort or happiness, great. But if you actually think humans were just set down on the earth one day by an omnipotent space creature and expect to back that up with science, you are so severely lost in your own ignorance and delusions that there is no longer any way to escape it. The crushing weight of your misinformation has trapped your mind. To you, there is no possibility that you could be wrong. Surely, it is everyone else who is wrong. Those who know more than you, those smarter than you, and those far wiser than you, are all mistaken. The vast majority of the world that is not your specific brand of Christianity, is all wrong. Atheists are fools to be looked down upon from on high. They are unfeeling scum that cannot appreciate the beauty of the world. You have been taught this, and your beliefs and faith reaffirm it. They have crippled your mind. So I'll ask again. Why is faith a good thing?

Really? It doesn't matter what I think the point of my own statement is? Do you confuse yourself with your sloppy thinking? And you seriously watch that pro-wrestling shit?

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Well Xei is not here right now and when Xei get's here then I'll answer it.

Yeah right. Because this isn't a forum and when Xei is next on, he won't be able to see it and respond if you answer it now. Jesus fucking christ.

How about Blueline's post? He was just here and you haven't responded to that.

You're not answering those posts because the precise evolutionary history of humans (and indeed every other species) is up for debate. So you want to jump on a particular set of specific assertions about it to appear to discredit evolutionary theory. The problem is not that there isn't an intermediate form but that there's an embarrassment of riches in that direction. One of them may be our direct ancestor, one of them may not be. The fact remains that they're incredibly close to us. You're just trying to spin it to make it look like a weak point in the theory.

If you were really solid in your beliefs, you would attack the points which you consider to be strongest instead of trying to spin specific uncertainties into weaknesses as you're currently doing.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Neyo, I don't know which is more pathetic...that you clearly and so blatantly ignore the masses of evidence that contradict your beliefs in order to preserve them in willful ignorance, or your incredible pompousness and hypocrisy. You claim to seek truth. You claim that the best and brightest minds the world has ever known are misguided, and that those who believe anything they say for even a moment are only sheep. To back up your claims, you deliberately search for pseudo-science and grasp at straws, presenting non-scientific "arguments" as if they are to be treated seriously. At the same time, you believe the fairy tales of 2000 year old humans with no evidence whatsoever. If believing in a god makes it easier to sleep at night, fine. If believing in one brings you comfort or happiness, great. But if you actually think humans were just set down on the earth one day by an omnipotent space creature and expect to back that up with science, you are so severely lost in your own ignorance and delusions that there is no longer any way to escape it. The crushing weight of your misinformation has trapped your mind. To you, there is no possibility that you could be wrong. Surely, it is everyone else who is wrong. Those who know more than you, those smarter than you, and those far wiser than you, are all mistaken. The vast majority of the world that is not your specific brand of Christianity, is all wrong. Atheists are fools to be looked down upon from on high. They are unfeeling scum that cannot appreciate the beauty of the world. You have been taught this, and your beliefs and faith reaffirm it. They have crippled your mind. So I'll ask again.

Dude, you seem a bit upset. You ok?

Originally Posted by Mario92

Why is faith a good thing?

How about you explain to me why is pride such a good thing instead? It's okay to admit that you do not know completely and that there is a possibility that any Human could be wrong instead of labeling things as facts which are clearly not. I will expose you, thats my job...lol

Originally Posted by Mario92

Atheists are fools to be looked down upon from on high. They are unfeeling scum that cannot appreciate the beauty of the world.

This is the only truth I've ever seen come from you.

EDIT:

@PhilosoperStoned. Don't worry I can assure you even promise you that I'll respond to BLUELINE's post. I'll get to it when I get to it. It's not going to happen when you want it to happen so you might as well sit back and chill and let things play out as they should. Regardless of embarrassment that may transpire it is what it is.

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

Dude, you seem a bit upset. You ok?

...

This is the only truth I've ever seen come from you.

Is there any particular reason you're here other than to troll?

How about you explain to me why is pride such a good thing instead? It's okay to admit that you do not know completely and that there is a possibility that any Human could be wrong instead of labeling things as facts which are clearly not. I will expose you, thats my job...lol

No, that's the job of real scientists. Your job is to toss out creationist bullshit and get laughed at.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Is there any particular reason you're here other than to troll?

If you haven't noticed this is an R/S forum as a believer in God yes I have a reason to be here. Why are you here?

Originally Posted by Ne-yo

If you haven't noticed this is an R/S forum as a believer in God yes I have a reason to be here. Why are you here?

R/S encompasses the debate of religion. I'm here to try and find out why people believe what they do. When they happen to throw out misinformation to back up their beliefs, futile though it may be, I call them out on it. What really grinds my gears is when pompous idiots come in and try to assert that science actually supports, or worse, proves the creation stories actually happened, or else can't sufficiently explain any other alternative, and so validating creation. This is simply false. Some people can be reasoned with. You are not among them. So at this point, I'm here to point, laugh at you, and get under your skin.

This ought to be fun...why do you believe an ancient children's story is more valid than the whole of modern science?

Originally Posted by Mario92

Some people can be reasoned with. You are not among them. So at this point, I'm here to point, laugh at you, and get under your skin.

Then you're officially a troll and you honestly think I'll let someone like you get under my skin? I ignore trolls and you're officially ignored. loser.

Ne-yo, you're the biggest fucking troll R/S has ever seen. It's just not possible to "argue" the creationist perspective without trolling.