Debate on the foundations of Christianity

**Leo Volont** · 07-24-2005 03:51 AM

This thread is split from the original topic of:

Originally posted by ElijahJones

I had been in a state of deep relaxation and the atmosphere in the room was similar to what I would have termed the \"presence of the holy spirit\" when I was a born again. *

This may be the source of your problems. Many Christians misunderstand what happened in the early history of the Church. We had Jesus Christ the Jewish Messiah giving out a Teaching both in affirmation of the Law as well as adding injunctions of Love and Charity. The Prophecies of the Hebrews, as well as the Oriental Three Kings, had seen Christ destined to be King of Kings. But Satan was victorious, and Christ was defeated and murdered. To follow up his Victory, Satan had to nullify the Teachings of that Messiah. Remember that the Prophet Simeon, the Last Prophet of the Jewish Dispensation (2nd Chapter of Luke) had prophecized the Christ would be contradicted. Paul was the contradiction.

Now, examine Paul's Antichristical Doctrine -- that by the Murder of the Messiah, Believers who would Advocate and that Murder could benefit by that Murder in that they could Sin, Sin, Sin and no Sin would ever be held against them. Essentially, it was a Doctrine that Hell would be Victorious over the Gates of Heaven. As is mentioned in a Letter of John, written to refute the Antichristical Doctrines of Paul, "Do not the Demons Themselves believe in Christ?"

So, what is it to be "Born Again" except to Accept a Bargain with Satan that if one agrees to accept partnership in the Murder of Christ, then all Sins will be Forgiven. It is veritably a Deal with the Devil.

But one cannot plot on benefitting by the Murder of the Messiah. Simply look at the Parables of Christ and you can see that in every reference to people murdering a Son or Messenger from God or the Master or the Father, it is ALWAYS represented as a heinous crime.

Any person who accepts this Deal with the Devil -- that they can Sin for free because they Advocate the Murder of Christ -- then they will be under a Curse.

Even many "Saints" have been under this Curse. Starting with Saint Francis. Christ Himself appeared to Francis and He said "Francis, do you want my Suffering, or do you want my Suffering?' Like a good indoctrinated Paulist, Francis answered, "Your Suffering, Lord". So it is that all those who advocate Christ's Suffering, will suffer themselves. Saint Francis was struck down with the Stigmata -- the supernatual Five Wounds of Christ, that would stay with him, open and bleeding, for the rest of his life. Other Stigmatics would follow in Church History. Paradoxically, it is seen as an honor, lending ironic meaning to "every blessing is a curse". But let's examine Christ's cryptic question a little more closely -- The real Question was "Do you Desire that Christ be given Glory or given Suffering". It is a question for the Next Dispensation. If Christ were to Come Again, would we allow Him to finally be King of Kings, or would we again torture and murder Him. So far the record is not good. The World Today has basically gone Conservative not because of any particular Democratic Choices, but, if one looks closely, because all of the Great Liberal Politicians had been assassinated. As Good Men are murdered for the convenience of Evil which now asserts Leadership over the Entire World, so we can probably suppose that a Modern Christ would have about the same luck as the Ancient Christ.

And then we will have a Modern Edition of 'Christianity' in which, by the Murder of the Second Coming, these new Murderers will be twice as saved, twice as 'Born Again'.

So, Elijah, I think you are being haunted by the demons that would go hand in hand with deal with the devil.

**jay dawg** · 07-24-2005 06:27 AM

in PAINS

me to say that i agree with leo there. supposed sinning again, is in reality nailing christ back on the cross each time it happens. so yeah christianity as it is in america is purly satanism in disguise, without even mentioning the fake christians that run this country knowingly deceiving millions, nay the world.

well since all forms of what god supposedly has spoken to mankind, in things such as the the torah, are simply man made ideas to control humanity. we must reject all jewish teachings and reject their plotting to destroy humanity. but even that cant stop what zionists are conspiring against humanity.

**ElijahJones** · 07-24-2005 07:16 AM

Interesting, yes to say the least. What does it mean when it is written "She has become the haunt of demons and of every fowl bird." ?

Anyways I have had these times of waking to think someone or something in real life is not what they it appears. When I watched Jeepers Creepers for the first time I woke up startled and almost lashed out at my wife whose long hair had fallen on my shoulder. For just a split second the Creeper was sleeping write next to me. I would not get too caught up in it.

The most frightening thing to me about satan and Jesus is that people by believing find justification for their own evil and their own good. It is possible we are just selfish animals who have dared to pretend we are more. Call me a false prophet but the selfishness of man is on display right now and many are deceived by it. And a man of sin will shortly be revealed.

**Leo Volont** · 07-24-2005 07:30 AM

Originally posted by ElijahJones
*

And a man of sin will shortly be revealed.

Christ had Prophecized that the Wheat and the Tares would co-exist until the End of Time. And, then, as you say, "a man of sin will shortly be revealed.

Well, that brings us to me. My mission, given to me by the Angel who will be King, is to reveal that 'Man of Sin'. And I have. That man was, IS, Paul. I am now revealing to the World that Paul was the Antichrist who, as Prophecy tells us, came damn close to fooling everybody... 'even the very elect'.

**ElijahJones** · 07-24-2005 07:39 AM

Originally posted by Leo Volont
So, Elijah, I think you are being haunted by the demons that would go hand in hand with deal with the devil.

I almost missed that part Leo. Nice work. I take comfort in knowing that if mine is to be a deal with the devil then it is as it was meant to be, so that I ought to enjoy my 15 minutes of fame. As it says, "What if I in my choosing make some vessels for honor and some for dishonor." And again it says ,"The Lord hardened Pharoah's heart." "He has been raised up that I might be magnified through him." Did Pharoah go to hell? I have never rejected Christ, only the false Christianity I found in the churches, but if I have rejected God's spirit it is because of bitterness over the way humans treat one another. A loving father does not sit back and simply watch such things.

If I am not to be of the caliber of pharoah, why should satan bother even to make an offer for my soul? I have heard that many of the old saints were brutally tempted by demons, St Anthony, Anastasius, Francis. If that is the reality I am to see then surely God's grace will be enough despite my terror at realizing that all that I have questioned and rejected is far too real and that the world is about to see hell unleashed upon its inhabitants.

I trust in only one thing, that a just God would not abandon a sincere seeker, nor let bitterness over past offences come between Himself and His bride. If any of these fails we are all lost and knowing so, many will seek to deceive.

Its rare that I seek to quote from the Bible anymore but here is something from Jeremiah. "The Lord's anger does not last forever, He knows that men are dust."

Ring the dinner bell at high noon
The Piper plays his tune
If not marked by marks of the moon
Each one shall play the lune

Peace Teeter Totters!

**jay dawg** · 07-24-2005 08:42 AM

once again leo happens to be right in stating that the so called "man of sin", or the antichrist, is indeed paul through the curren pope. just looking at the new pope should scream evil into your mind. not to mention TONS of other catholic symbols and dogma. the most notable symbol would be the image of the beast, or that dead drooping cross with the skinny rotted corpse of christ on it that the popes tote around making people worship. the list goes on forever but i will just name that because everyone has seen it atleast once. he sits in the house of god proclaiming that he is god, everyday. im pretty sure leo is getting pissed right now but im sorry buddy, it is truth

EJ, what happened in the bible was just accounts of history through the eyes of those who wrote it. except for the rare few times when they knowingly were deceiving mankind, in example: the 10 commandments. abraham carved them himself in 40 days on a mountain alone. after he came down he made the number 40 a special number so we would think god was waiting. but if u were god you wouldnt wait 40 days.

other things like muder of inocent children and babies and then moses ordering men to check to see who is a virgin, (yes just imagine how they CHECKED) killing those who werent virgins and keeping the virgins for their own lusts, all in the name of a supposed god. believe god has never spoken to moses or any other jew for that matter. read up in the book of numbers with your third eye opened.

when the bible says thus says the lord, it really should say, thus says me. since god didnt actually talk to them to write it, obviously it was in their own imagination like everything else. the bible is just jewish delusions that have been takin out of hand. sadly

**ElijahJones** · 07-24-2005 05:23 PM

Your ideas are interesting Jay Dawg, but you cannot prove either the existence or non existence of God or really any being that you cannot put on display. I can't say for sure but I would guess that you are or have been involved with Anton Lavey's teachings and that your idea that Paul was the antichrist is not well accepted in many churches.

I think that there is a strong possibility that religion is something people made up, but logically the existence of God is undecidable. To go beyond that and claim that the Apostles had intent to decieve is not corroborated by history at all. If anything they did what they did because they were sincere in what they believed, even if they were wrong.

At any rate this is all moving quite far away from the point of the thread which has to do with dream state cross overs into real life (Moderator: This was the original topic that this one was split from). If you want to have a debate with me about religion start a thread in the philosophy section and PM me when you are ready.

Later

EJ

**ElijahJones** · 07-24-2005 09:25 PM

Hi Placebo,

I think we could cut it at Leo's and place his and everything since then into a topic in Philosophy or General Discussion under the heading "Debate on the foundations of Christianity.", or some such thing. The details are up to you of course.
(Moderator: Done!

)

Thanks again.

**spiritofthewolf** · 07-24-2005 11:13 PM

skitzo....

**jay dawg** · 07-24-2005 11:49 PM

Originally posted by ElijahJones
Your ideas are interesting Jay Dawg, but you cannot prove either the existence or non existence of God or really any being that you cannot put on display. I can't say for sure but I would guess that you are or have been involved with Anton Lavey's teachings and that your idea that Paul was the antichrist is not well accepted in many churches.

I think that there is a strong possibility that religion is something people made up, but logically the existence of God is undecidable. To go beyond that and claim that the Apostles had intent to decieve is not corroborated by history at all. If anything they did what they did because they were sincere in what they believed, even if they were wrong.

At any rate this is all moving quite far away from the point of the thread which has to do with dream state cross overs into real life. If you want to have a debate with me about religion start a thread in the philosophy section and PM me when you are ready.

Later

EJ

no i havnt read a single word from anton levey. he looks too scary personally. plus he likes manson and i hate manson. so there lol (i do believe god made existance, he spoke and the bigbang happened, just not man made religions)

**AirRick101** · 07-28-2005 06:24 PM

This is an awfully radicaly rebuttal of the Christian faith.

Assuming you know the Christian answer for why things happened the way they happened...I won't go further on that. What you're doing is proclaming every single born again Christian is under a Satanic curse. I don't know what your sources are, and I don't know what Christian experience you have had, but if you're overgeneralizing, that is just ridiculous.

Christ was no so much murdered as he was giving up his life. He clearly stated that the men do not kill him, but he instead lays down his life for them. At least, this does not contradict the morals of his parables. The Christian context may not be understandable by everybody, but it's certainly the spine of religious people to believe in the death of Christ for transgressions, or else they have lost hope and fall into the thought that all injustices will not be paid for and recompensated.

Jesus was not a target to God as much as he was a volunteer. And plus, the spiritual terminology of father and son relationship is much more intricate than that of a physical type. Jesus was a "son", sure, but he was more importantly, God incarnated as human. They were one and the same, Jesus said he cannot do anything without the father, they are one. Not merely an extension, but actually God's character in human form, to take the punishment that he himself was obligated to deliver. So, in the bigger picture, it's more of a self-sacrifice than a son-sacrifice.

I understand your proposed plot holes of believers abusing the forgiveness system and getting away scott-free, against the unbelievers who commit little injustice. Just remember, that a spoken belief in God is shallow compared to a heartfelt one, and beliefs in themselves mean little. Jesus said, only those who love know God. Didn't say which one had to come first.

**Rakkantekimusouka** · 07-28-2005 08:31 PM

Originally posted by jay dawg
well since all forms of what god supposedly has spoken to mankind, in things such as the the torah, are simply man made ideas to control humanity. we must reject all jewish teachings and reject their plotting to destroy humanity. but even that cant stop what zionists are conspiring against humanity.

Hey, we're talking about Christianity here, not Judaism. Sure, Christianity may have began as a bunch of renegade Jews, but today they're completely different faiths. Leave the Torah and its teachings OUT OF THIS.

Also, Zionism is not the same as Judaism -- Zionism actually goes against the Torah.

**jay dawg** · 07-28-2005 09:18 PM

wow theres a ton of stuff you guys are ignorant to. not your fault i wont hold it against you guys or respond negatively either. just know that there is a ton of knowledge and truth out there that is being kept from you. you couldnt possibly understand so i wont bother.

also, this thread was moved by a mod and he created the title and this was not originally about christianity. so get off my back

**Rakkantekimusouka** · 07-28-2005 11:00 PM

Originally posted by jay dawg+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jay dawg)</div>

wow theres a ton of stuff you guys are ignorant to. not your fault i wont hold it against you guys or respond negatively either. just know that there is a ton of knowledge and truth out there that is being kept from you. you couldnt possibly understand so i wont bother.[/b]

That was quite profound. Even though I'm not sure to what extent I agree with what you are insinutating we are ignorant to, that was well put.

<!--QuoteBegin-jay dawg
also, this thread was moved by a mod and he created the title and this was not originally about christianity. so get off my back

Point taken -- however, my defense of Judaism remains; I dislike you speaking about Judaism that way. These are my feelings, as much as what you said are yours. Let's respect that much of each other. OK, piece said.

**jay dawg** · 07-28-2005 11:07 PM

alrighty then, fellow human being of great worth and beauty. love is all that matters

**Jrels** · 07-29-2005 12:15 AM

Originally posted by AirRick101

Christ was no so much murdered as he was giving up his life. He clearly stated that the men do not kill him, but he instead lays down his life for them.

(Sorry to jump in so late but...)
Do you honestly think that Christ the Son of God, God Incarnate, would treasure his earthy form or existence to the point where he would feel a loss when it was destroyed? I would think that a human existence would mean nothing to God. I think that Christ was here only to speak to us, and perhaps not to give us the "get out of jail free" card.

**AirRick101** · 07-30-2005 11:09 PM

I don't know if it was as simple as just merely speaking something. So his success is due to the precise conglomeration of words that sparked souls for milleniums then on?

Besides, whatever he spoke was something anybody could already know, and are not stupid enough to require anybody to TELL them what they should feel in their conscience.

And, if anybody were to inhabit the human body, they cannot but help feel the biological survival instinct to treasure it. And who are we to say how much he treasured it?

We are off topic, and I only remember this thread having the intention of Leo invalidating the basic Christian faith?....

**bradybaker** · 07-31-2005 01:21 AM

Christianity, like most other things in the world, is based on money, power and control.

**Nirvana Starseed** · 07-31-2005 05:01 AM

Zionism

An insult to zion, no doubt.

**Rakkantekimusouka** · 07-31-2005 06:18 PM

Originally posted by NirvanaStarseed
Zionism

An insult to zion, no doubt.

An insult to Judaism. It goes against Torah. Unfortunately, the state and the people are there and there's nothing that can be done about it now...

**TAISIA** · 08-05-2005 08:04 PM

Have you never heard Christ called the Lamb of God? Before Christ died, the only way God had to get through to people how bad sin was, was to have them kill an innocent, blemish free lamb. This made people think twice about sinning,, if they did, an innocent lamb would have to die,,, a deterent if you will.

Christ was not killed by Satan,,, it was God's plan to have Christ's blood spilled to show,, a complete innocent would die becasue people sin..
But,, if you accept that Jesus died for you,,, you would accept this gift and "try" not to sin,, but your sin is forgiven if you are TRUELY sorry. Not a get out of sin free card.

Cathlics are the only christian religion who still have Jesus on the cross,
Any other christian religion has a cross with out a body,,, showing Jesus accended into heaven,, not still hanging there...

This is how it was taught to me.... now.. do I question things.. YOU BET

There is so much in the bible that does not make sence,, if you think about it.
But to each his own.

**jay dawg** · 08-05-2005 08:30 PM

Originally posted by TAISIA
Have you never heard Christ called the Lamb of God? Before Christ died, the only way God had to get through to people how bad sin was, was to have them kill an innocent, blemish free lamb. This made people think twice about sinning,, if they did, an innocent lamb would have to die,,, a deterent if you will.

Christ was not killed by Satan,,, it was God's plan to have Christ's blood spilled to show,, a complete innocent would die becasue people sin..
But,, if you accept that Jesus died for you,,, you would accept this gift and \"try\" not to sin,, but your sin is forgiven if you are TRUELY sorry. Not a get out of sin free card.

Cathlics are the only christian religion who still have Jesus on the cross,
Any other christian religion has a cross with out a body,,, showing Jesus accended into heaven,, not still hanging there...

This is how it was taught to me.... now.. do I question things.. YOU BET

There is so much in the bible that does not make sence,, if you think about it.
But to each his own.

that is the "correct" christian attitude to have. but the idea of having questions is a good one. here area a few to ponder:

1. how is it we have worms and flys and millions of different bugs today. were they on the ark? no...

2. would a truly loving god only follow a small jewish communitee while the rest of his earthly people died without knowing this jewish god? no...

3. if the gospels are truly gods inspired spoken word, then why is what jesus says in each one different than the next? because its man made. not god made.

my conclusion is the bible is most deffinetly NOT gods word. it is mans idea of god AT BEST. who can argue with that, honestly

**TAISIA** · 08-05-2005 09:10 PM

Aahh ,, many of the same questions that I have. There is no boat big enough to house 2 of every animal and 7 of the "clean animals" they would eat.
But I am sure at the time this portion of the Bible was written, they had no idea of Australia, and other parts of the world.

Why would God punish snakes to crawl on their belly and eat dust, because Satan made himself into a snake and caused Eve to sin.
God made snakes,, snakes did not make Satan...
And we know now,,snakes do not eat dust..

I think the Bible was written over hundreds of years,, changedd to fit who was interpreting at that time.
Have you ever really read the begining of a King James version of the Bible?

It is good for people to have some kind of goodness in their hearts.
Christianity,,has NOW evolved into a peaceful, loving, kind religion for the most part.
I feel if it makes some feel closer to God by practicing religion, good for them.

I almost envy the people who do not question and "know"exactly all the black and white issues.
I have always had questions that no can ever answer.

**Placebo** · 08-08-2005 09:41 AM

Originally posted by TAISIA
But I am sure at the time this portion of the Bible was written, they had no idea of Australia, and other parts of the world.

At one time in the distant past, the earth consisted of only one continent. And the sea and sky of course. The real problem lies in timing. This was millions or billions ago (I'm unsure)
The ark seems unlikely to have been that long ago.

As for worms and insects, I believe many of them can burrow and hibernate, even in flood conditions.