Only man is fit to be God.

**DeviantThinker** · 09-01-2014 01:16 AM

Originally Posted by Gnostic

Note that we soundly reject Christian morality in secular law because secular law is moral while Christian law is not.

As a Gnostic Christian and Universalist, our morality is superior to most of the other Abrahamic cults because we grant equality to all people while Christianity, Catholics and Islam deny equality to half the world.

Regards
DL

So are you atheist or Christian? While I am to atheism what deanstar is to Christianity, I find you calling yourself a Christian in even the most convoluted sense to be extremely intellectually dishonest. Honestly, your viewpoint would not bear out even in the most adventurous of interpretations of the bible and that is an achievement.

Also, you are aware that the Gnostic sect would have considered your elevation of man over God as heretical as well, right? Most of the Gnostics and Hermetics viewed man's role as a partnership as opposed to the more subservient role in mainstream Christianity. However, they never intended the reverse, that of God's position being subservient to man!

Seriously, define to me what the hell a "Gnostic Christian" even is. The term Universalist is almost worthless since that could encompass almost every belief under the sun, rather fittingly for the name.

**Deanstar** · 09-01-2014 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by DeviantThinker

So are you atheist or Christian? While I am to atheism what deanstar is to Christianity

I am fundamentalist Christian. I believe the KJV bible as a standard and I believe the gospel and scriptures 100%. I'm a young earth creationist as a result and I seek to follow everything Jesus commanded.

**snoop** · 09-02-2014 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by Deanstar

I am fundamentalist Christian. I believe the KJV bible as a standard and I believe the gospel and scriptures 100%. I'm a young earth creationist as a result and I seek to follow everything Jesus commanded.

Despite your shortcomings (or what I see as shortcomings, anyway) I do believe that conviction is a good quality to have. Hypocrisy bugs the shit out of me, so if nothing else I can say at least you believe something and you don't try to eat your cake and have it to. I don't agree at all with you but that's okay really. Just don't try to use your beliefs to go killing people or some such trite bollocks like that and I can live with that.

**Deanstar** · 09-03-2014 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by snoop

Despite your shortcomings (or what I see as shortcomings, anyway) I do believe that conviction is a good quality to have. Hypocrisy bugs the shit out of me, so if nothing else I can say at least you believe something and you don't try to eat your cake and have it to. I don't agree at all with you but that's okay really. Just don't try to use your beliefs to go killing people or some such trite bollocks like that and I can live with that.

I think you are the first person on this entire forum to actually say "It's okay to be a real christian", without any prejudice! My faith is definitely not unclear, it does not change from one day to next because it's based on a solid rock which doesn't come from me. Something higher and more reliable than my own authority. The holy spirit. Most people that attack my faith (wrongly) assume that science is against the scriptures, or that scientific facts disprove the bible, but this is just an illusion that they project through disinformation and propaganda. Evolution theory being a perfect example.

Originally Posted by Jookia

I think it's hypocritical that he chooses that there's one true religion and it's his, and belittle other's beliefs.

see that's a prejudice judgment, that I belittle people and that I 'choose' to have an elite religion. In fact Jesus Christ choose me, and I only believe the bible because I have faith it's true. Religion to me is not even the bible because to me the bible is just fact. What is my religion is actually being charitable in general.

**Jookia** · 09-03-2014 12:39 AM

Originally Posted by Deanstar

see that's a prejudice judgment, that I belittle people and that I 'choose' to have an elite religion.

You've said to others they follow anti-christ religions, you've disrespect faiths other than your own, you've called mathematicians retards and misrepresented people in arguments. This is not how you would want to be treated, yet you treat others this way.

I also didn't say you chose to have a religion or the qualities of having chosen a religion. Please re-read my post.

**Gnostic** · 09-01-2014 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by DeviantThinker

So are you atheist or Christian? While I am to atheism what deanstar is to Christianity, I find you calling yourself a Christian in even the most convoluted sense to be extremely intellectually dishonest. Honestly, your viewpoint would not bear out even in the most adventurous of interpretations of the bible and that is an achievement.

Also, you are aware that the Gnostic sect would have considered your elevation of man over God as heretical as well, right? Most of the Gnostics and Hermetics viewed man's role as a partnership as opposed to the more subservient role in mainstream Christianity. However, they never intended the reverse, that of God's position being subservient to man!

Seriously, define to me what the hell a "Gnostic Christian" even is. The term Universalist is almost worthless since that could encompass almost every belief under the sun, rather fittingly for the name.

You know little of Gnostic Christianity it seems. That is not a slight as we are an emerging religion and few know what we are about.

We do not believe as most do and definitely not like Christians do. They are mostly literalists and we see all the Gods as myths and man as the highest form of life that there can be.

We believe in a certain type of Jesus. The Jesus that the church never teaches about that show him saying that there is no God other than man. Let me give you this old O.P. and a link to our general beliefs but please remember that being as we are re-emerging and evolving, some views will likely need explanation.

Basic Beliefs of a True Gnostic

------------------------------

Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?

I have been asked to do an O P showing my beliefs and have written a nutshell view to fill that request.

I was a skeptic till the age of 39. I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself an esoteric ecumenist and Gnostic Christian. Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake and that makes me as hated by Christians today as the ancient Gnostics that Constantine had the Christians kill when he bought the Catholic Church.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of the O. T. God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheep where Gnostic Christians are goats.

This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness or what I call; the Godhead.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. It does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have exaggerated tribal mentalities and poor morals as they have developed a double standard to be able to stomach their God.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to ignore whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar of excellence and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Since then, I have tried to collect information that would help any that believe that apotheosis is possible, generally not Christians, --- as they do not believe in the mythical esoteric Jesus that I believe in and churches do not dare teach it.

This first clip gives the theological and philosophical interpretation of what Jesus taught and the second clip show what I think is a close representation of the method that helped me push my apotheosis.

Alan Watts - On The Book of Eli - YouTube

1A Hidden Meanings In Bible - YouTube

Basically, the usual Christian Jesus is their hero and savior while my version demand that man himself steps up to the plate and save himself.

Which version do you think is more moral and deserving of praise and why?

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by juroara

I'm sorry, but I fundamentally disagree with you. And no amount of retribution is gonna bring any deceased loved one back.
.

Correct. But retribution is not given to bring anyone back.

It is to insure that the bastard does not kill your neighbor as well later.

Seems you only think of yourself though. Think demographically and get out of the box you accuse me of being in.

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by Deanstar

I am fundamentalist Christian. I believe the KJV bible as a standard and I believe the gospel and scriptures 100%. I'm a young earth creationist as a result and I seek to follow everything Jesus commanded.

Have you gone inside of yourself? No you have not or you would not write as foolishly as you do.

You seek God in a book while Jesus tells you to go inside. No wonder your apologetics are so poor.

Do you even know what Jesus was talking of in this.

Do you know what he is telling you with these?

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by splodeymissile

Leader is a more appropriate term, especially since we're not giving him omnipotence and complete theocratic rule. Incidentally, this coming election is the first time I'll be able to vote, so your criticism holds no water there, either.
Finally, putting "regards, DL" at the end of every reply makes you seem excessively arrogant and a bit childish. You'd get much the same effect if you make it part of your sig.

Semantics. Oh well. You are young and have time to grow up.

Remember child when you think of your last

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

Regards
DL

**DeviantThinker** · 09-01-2014 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by Gnostic

You know little of Gnostic Christianity it seems. That is not a slight as we are an emerging religion and few know what we are about.

We do not believe as most do and definitely not like Christians do. They are mostly literalists and we see all the Gods as myths and man as the highest form of life that there can be.

We believe in a certain type of Jesus. The Jesus that the church never teaches about that show him saying that there is no God other than man. Let me give you this old O.P. and a link to our general beliefs but please remember that being as we are re-emerging and evolving, some views will likely need explanation.

Basic Beliefs of a True Gnostic

------------------------------

Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?

I have been asked to do an O P showing my beliefs and have written a nutshell view to fill that request.

I was a skeptic till the age of 39. I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself an esoteric ecumenist and Gnostic Christian. Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake and that makes me as hated by Christians today as the ancient Gnostics that Constantine had the Christians kill when he bought the Catholic Church.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of the O. T. God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheep where Gnostic Christians are goats.

This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness or what I call; the Godhead.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. It does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have exaggerated tribal mentalities and poor morals as they have developed a double standard to be able to stomach their God.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to ignore whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar of excellence and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Since then, I have tried to collect information that would help any that believe that apotheosis is possible, generally not Christians, --- as they do not believe in the mythical esoteric Jesus that I believe in and churches do not dare teach it.

This first clip gives the theological and philosophical interpretation of what Jesus taught and the second clip show what I think is a close representation of the method that helped me push my apotheosis.

Alan Watts - On The Book of Eli - YouTube

1A Hidden Meanings In Bible - YouTube

Basically, the usual Christian Jesus is their hero and savior while my version demand that man himself steps up to the plate and save himself.

Which version do you think is more moral and deserving of praise and why?

Regards
DL

Well thanks for clarifying your beliefs. I honestly don't know what to make of them. While I am against them based on epistemological grounds (the truth value is dubious), I have no real moral issue with your beliefs and based on a purely literary context, your critique of the bible hits home. I have always felt the idea of Jesus's arbitrary sacrifice to be morally repugnant.

Anyway, I don't think I have anything of further value to share in this forum. I will be off.

P.S. For a certain Mr Star who will be seething at this point, I say arbitrary since God never needed to send his son to suffer. He could have forgiven the sins of humanity out of his own accord but rather than do so, he allowed Jesus to go through an incredibly painful death and his earthy relatives had to suffer from watching him die slowly too.

No, the fact that this was all for humanity's sake is not an argument. God did not need to do that, he had a choice to freely absolve humanity of it's sins or put his only son through agony and he freely chose the choice that lead to more suffering.

**Deanstar** · 09-01-2014 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by DeviantThinker

P.S. For a certain Mr Star who will be seething at this point, I say arbitrary since God never needed to send his son to suffer. He could have forgiven the sins of humanity out of his own accord but rather than do so, he allowed Jesus to go through an incredibly painful death and his earthy relatives had to suffer from watching him die slowly too.

No, the fact that this was all for humanity's sake is not an argument. God did not need to do that, he had a choice to freely absolve humanity of it's sins or put his only son through agony and he freely chose the choice that lead to more suffering.

You have a really bad attitude and since everyone has done wrong you can't just get rid of wrongdoing based on nothing. It is a legal thing that had to be acomplished. You do not understand the sacrifice of Jesus, but you still make value judgments that are very disrespectful about it. I'm not 'seething' as I know it has taken a lot of brainwashing in society for you to get to this level of delusion and that tou have been a willing acomplice in your own backwards sort of deception that you imagine is righteousness. Ofcourse there is nothing I can say that has the power of myself to free you. But I should stand up for what is right and declare that you are wrong about this. The glory does belong to Jesus Christ and it wasn't an immoral act, if was an act of service. It is the potential for you to become innocent by his blood. That's not just some meaningless thing.