Thread: The Keys Of Death Hell And The Grave

Beause Men are flesh and blood. Death still has control of flesh. So many people think that their body is all they are, so there is the door for all the control the Devil needs.

I gave him thirty-five cents, 'cause he said he needed to call his mommy 'cause he lost his keys to Death, Hell and the Grave. I keep most of my keys on one keyring too, so I kind understood.

Turned out it was *really* long distance, and he needed $485,000 for the first three minutes. I didn't feel comfortable giving it to him, 'cause I was suspicious and thought he might just go use it to buy cheap booze and crack rock. I mean, he is the antichrist and all...

So I wished him luck and left him standing there moping about. [shrug] Definitely the dude was down hard on his luck, that's for sure.

We give the devil the keys at times because we are at all time still a potential victim to the world's attractions. Some people try to just give one key, thinking it is harmless, but realize it was all on one keychain, and quickly lose the others. (I know, this has happened when I started buying Pokemon merchandise a while back)

LOL, kim, you give the extra kick to topics like these.

Originally posted by AirRick101
We give the devil the keys at times because we are at all time still a potential victim to the world's attractions. Some people try to just give one key, thinking it is harmless, but realize it was all on one keychain, and quickly lose the others. (I know, this has happened when I started buying Pokemon merchandise a while back)

LOL, kim, you give the extra kick to topics like these.

Good post!

I know, Kim's pretty witty, don't ya think?

My continuing point is that this guy is off on a constant sermon. Get off of it already. Do you have anything of your own to offer? ANYTHING at all?

If I wanted to read a bible, I'd go to a hotel and pull the one out from underneath the desk leg that keeps it level...

Actually for all those preaching I'd like to give you something to think about.

If God created Man without knowledge, which then Man took from the forbidden fruit, doesn't that mean that God was in fact inhibiting our own free will? Or maybe, before we took the fruit, we didn't have any which made God all so much more angry that we broke His will?

To make my point clear, know this. God tried to keep us locked away, unaware of anything around us and so... thusly said, we can give all credit for who and what we are to the Serpent (who everyone regards as the Devil) so if you look at it he really is the true Hero of Genesis, the one who created us as we are now, and not God.

Now, I know you're going to pick holes in that, I just wanna enjoy seeing you try...

Originally posted by Sifr
Actually for all those preaching I'd like to give you something to think about.

If God created Man without knowledge,

The joy of life is learning of all that God has given unto us.

Do you really think God intented to keep man from the knowledge of good and evil?

Say to a child don't touch, what do you think will happen?
Show me in the bible where God gave man free will?

Originally posted by Awaken4e1

Do you really think God intented to keep man from the knowledge of good and evil?

Say to a child don't touch, what do you think will happen?

Er yes, thats exactly what I just. Reread Genesis, why else would He have kicked us out of Eden if He meant for us to have knowledge and a perception about ourselves, the fact we took it into our hands to learn surely would have made a just creator proud? You don't teach a child to walk, they learn to do it on their own.

And what about teaching a child not to do something. We all know that its reverse psychology, but what I'm saying is that humanity didn't deserve to be punished for wanting to have the wisdom that God had and trying to emulate Him!

I just explained the He didn't give us free will by the way, He didn't want us to have it. The fact we have it now, is something rather unique that I think made Him exceptionally angry.

Thanks also for ommitting my most relevant point... proves that you haven't an answer for it.

Originally posted by Sifr


Er yes, thats exactly what I just. Reread Genesis, why else would He have kicked us out of Eden

Yes, He kicked us out of the nest just as an Eagle pushes an eaglet out of its nest, to fly. If you recall man took the knowledge with him out of the garden.

To fulfill the workings of the law and to bring man to the understanding of perfection. Man had to be subjected to vanity to grow beyond where he was, which was unbalanced knowing only good.

Behold the man has become as one of Us knowing good,and Evil...

Well forgive me for not being so completely convinced of the intentions of God, but it seemed to me like we were expelled for being too much of a risk. I think God has a problems with challenges to his authority.

We're a lot like Lucifer in this way, created so perfect and yet we are for some reason an anomaly in the system and don't do what we are being told... and as a perfect Creator, such things aren't really good to aknowledge.

Originally posted by Sifr
God has a problems with challenges to his authority..

No, God can't be challenged, one one is powerful enough to challenge Him...No one!

I hadn't considered the thought of the serpent being man's hero in influencing man and woman to be aware of the knowledge of good and evil.

Well, the religious would say that God gave man (or woman) free will in choosing whether to eat from the tree of life or tree of knowledge of good and evil (notice how 'evil' is in 'devil'?) But God did not stop man from being able to be tempted, perhaps it was a deliberate test. He wanted to let man decide if he could love God in return out of choice. Man failed, and thus failed the test.

Now what? It may also be argued "Why did God make man with the capacity to sin?" It makes sense you cannot have good without bad (in our terms, at least). But I pondered and never really could answer "Why couldn't God, if he is so infinite, have created a universe where man was able to love God withou freewill, whilst making that love valid?" Whilst this would be refuted under current logic, it does challenge God's infinite ability to create.

Originally posted by AirRick101
I hadn't considered the thought of the serpent being man's hero in influencing man and woman to be aware of the knowledge of good and evil.

First God gave man ‘desire’ to do what? Anything, Everything!

Well, the religious would say that God gave man (or woman) free will in choosing whether to eat from the tree of life or tree of knowledge of good and evil (notice how 'evil' is in 'devil'?) But God did not stop man from being able to be tempted, perhaps it was a deliberate test. He wanted to let man decide if he could love God in return out of choice. Man failed, and thus failed the test.[/b]

God subject man to vanity, not of man’s will (clay has not will over the potter) but be reason of Him who subjected the same ‘in Hope’

Hope for what? A mature creature of God knowing all the gifts of God.

Now what? It may also be argued \"Why did God make man with the capacity to sin?\" It makes sense you cannot have good without bad (in our terms, at least). But I pondered and never really could answer \"Why couldn't God, if he is so infinite, have created a universe where man was able to love God withou freewill, whilst making that love valid?\" Whilst this would be refuted under current logic, it does challenge God's infinite ability to create.[/b]

God put the tree (symbol of grow and of knowledge) of good and evil, to ignite man’s desire to know. It wasn’t a trap it was so that man could begin to grow into a balanced mature creature.

Man only knew of good before he fell, so man had to come into a new realm of knowledge through experience.

Awaken, where do you get this from? You can't just make up new beliefs and tag them onto the bible. Show me where in genesis this:

God put the tree (symbol of grow and of knowledge) of good and evil, to ignite man’s desire to know. It wasn’t a trap it was so that man could begin to grow into a balanced mature creature.[/b]

is stated. A clear reading of genesis will show you that:

- God creates man (2:7)
- God expressly forbids man from eating the fruit (2:16-17)
- The serpent tricks eve (note: a serpent not satan) (3:1-5)
- They eat and get knowledge (3:6-7), and hide from god
- God asks "where are you?" because ancient hebrews hadn't thought up omnipotence yet (3:9)
- A (decidedly-less-than-omnipotent) god asks if they ate from the fruit, re-iterating that he commanded them expressly not to eat it (3:11)
- God curses everyone cause they ate a fruit, then kicks them out (3:12-24)

It's not even a very mild curse, its a curse-a-palooza. How was giving women painful birth and cursing the ground to grow sub-par food ("in painful toil you will eat" 3:17) "helping man grow into a balanced mature creature"? It's just not supported in any way by the bible

-spoon

Yeah I read Genesis again trying to get a good bases for my arguments and was going to ask that earlier, but I already worked out the answer I would get back so didn't attempt to try since I had no other way to counter that possibility.

So for once answering on the side of religion, I think Awaken meant to say that through Suffering and Hardship, that we overcome it we then become Enlightened and one step closer to perfection and being with God?

Although I don't agree, I'm sure thats the answer that most Christians would give.

and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them , because spiritually they are discerned;

This applies to both of you.

I state this in all humility

There is no common ground for us to relate to unless you are willing to accept what I tell is true...

If you are willing then I will explain...

Originally posted by spoon



- God creates man (2:7)
- God expressly forbids man from eating the fruit (2:16-17)
- The serpent tricks eve (note: a serpent not satan) (3:1-5)
- They eat and get knowledge (3:6-7), and hide from god
- God asks \"where are you?\" because ancient hebrews hadn't thought up omnipotence yet (3:9)
- A (decidedly-less-than-omnipotent) god asks if they ate from the fruit, re-iterating that he commanded them expressly not to eat it (3:11)
- God curses everyone cause they ate a fruit, then kicks them out (3:12-24)

\"helping man grow into a balanced mature creature\"? It's just not supported in any way by the bible
-spoon

Let me first start by setting some standards which are true throughout the Bible. There are many types and shadows depicted within the Word of God these are occurring throughout the whole of the Bible. As many of those who’ve studied the Word for years know that these types and shadows are allegoric in nature and are used to speak to the peoples of today. Through examples.

By example, these set the frame work of a true application of the life within the Word of God. As I am sure you know that the one referred to as ‘The Lamb of God’ is Jesus, He is both the lamb, and the Son of God and Jesus all in one. I would state here that I do not intend to preach to you, but I feel I must elaborate in much detail, for there to be a clear understanding of what I speak of.

I will use scripture references when necessary.

God spoke to man and said in

Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'

God hold man ‘the day you eat, is the day you die.’ Here man has no understanding of death or dieing, so this only stirred man’s desire to know ‘ as God knows’ for what did God say when man eats?

Gen 3:22 And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,' –

It is not that God didn’t want man to be eternal; but that He didn’t want him to remain inexperienced in the knowledge which he now possessed, now a balanced mind would teach him. Man was created perfect in all things which pertained to light, and goodness. But now man has a new understanding - Evil.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent saith unto the woman, `Dying, ye do not die,

Gen 3:5 for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it--your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.'

The serpent is the newly found ability which the knowledge of good and evil now revealed to the soul, or to the womb of man - or ‘the woman’

Why do you think that people who are evil are referred to as snakes, because they are evil in their soul, and in their thinking? This is where the woman the heard the serpent in her own soul, and she gave to her husband ‘the masculine, ‘The spirit of man and he experienced evil in his spirit!

Gen 3:6 And the woman seeth that the tree is good for food, and that it is pleasant to the eyes, and the tree is desirable to make one wise, and she taketh of its fruit and eateth, and giveth also to her husband with her, and he doth eat;

The soul has all these reason why it needs all these comforting things, but through experience the soul finds it really doesn’t need thing it needs God’s Word to be fulfilled.

The soul of man is never satisfied, it is always in need of reinforcement of its own
security.

The woman is the reproductive part of man ‘the womb of man’ if you will, remember the woman came out of the man, so now his reproductive abilities are now in the woman, this means his spiritual ability to reproduce as well are now in the woman –‘ the soul.’ The ‘woman is the soulish part of man’ and they will not be able to reproduce in God’s image until they become one again.

Gen 3:7 and the eyes of them both are opened, and they know that they are naked, and they sew fig-leaves, and make to themselves girdles.

God asks Where are you, not because God didn’t know where they were, but to show the man that in God’s eyes nothing had changed, only mans perception had changed, as revealed by this statement.

Which God asked ‘Who told you, you were naked? And the answer is ‘the knowledge of evil in their soul, -the serpent,’ told them they were naked. of the tree of which I have commanded thee not to eat, hast thou eaten?'

God wanted them to be honest and confess. But they didn’t. This not because God didn’t know if they ate.


Gen 3:13 And Jehovah God saith to the woman, `What is this thou hast done?' and the woman saith, `The serpent hath caused me to forget--and I do eat.'

My evil mind caused me to believe a lie, and I rely on thing more that I do you God.

Gen 3:14 And Jehovah God saith unto the serpent, `because thou hast done this, cursed art thou above all the cattle, and above every beast of the field: on thy belly dost thou go, and dust thou dost eat, all days of thy life;

Because you would rather put your confidence in your own evil thoughts instead of my voice, and I let you live in the most depraved, and perverted way of thinking there is, and you will life in it every day.

Gen 3:15 and enmity I put between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he doth bruise thee--the head, and thou dost bruise him--the heel.' So your soulish mind with be at odds with my Spirit, you will not believe in me, I will not allow you to see my in your soulish mind, you mind will be weak, and unable to see me.

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman He said, `Multiplying I multiply thy sorrow and thy conception, in sorrow dost thou bear children, and toward thy husband is thy desire, and he doth rule over thee.'

Through suffering will man reproduce, and through hard labor will you gain things.

Gen 3:17 And to the man He said, `Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and dost eat of the tree concerning which I have charged thee, saying, Thou dost not eat of it, cursed is the ground on thine account; in sorrow thou dost eat of it all days of thy life,

God did not curse man, but the earth on which he lives, and through hard labor, and the sweat of your brow shall you eat bread.

Gen 3:18 and thorn and bramble it doth bring forth to thee, and thou hast eaten the herb of the field;

Now the earth will fight you all the way of your life, and through experience shall you learn good and evil.

Gen 3:19 by the sweat of thy face thou dost eat bread till thy return unto the ground, for out of it hast thou been taken, for dust thou art, and unto dust thou turnest back.'

Gen 3:20 and the man calleth his wife's name Eve: for she hath been mother of all living. Notice God did not called her Eve, but man did, God called ‘Them’ Adam. Because they were one flesh.

Gen 3:21 And Jehovah God doth make to the man and to his wife coats of skin, and doth clothe them.

It is not the skins of animals, but it is the skin you now live in.

Gen 3:22 And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; and now, lest he send forth his hand, and have taken also of the tree of life, and eaten, and lived to the age,' --

Gen 3:23 Jehovah God sendeth him forth from the Garden of Eden to serve the ground from which he hath been taken;

Gen 3:24 yea, he casteth out the man, and causeth to dwell at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flame of the sword which is turning itself round to guard the way of the tree of life.

Awaken wrote: "no one is powerful enough to challenge blah blahblah"
----


I CHALLENGE YOU GOD!!! I'M WAITING! BRING YOUR BOOTIE DOWN HERE!

There - I challenged him. Your statement proven beyond any doubt as FALSE.

Now I'm not much one for blaspheming, but that last one made me laugh...

There is no common ground for us to relate to unless you are willing to accept what I tell is true... [/b]

So you're saying, in order to believe, I have to believe first? Pffsh. I might accept what you tell me when you can give me clear criteria that make your faith more right than the myriad of others. What makes your beliefs true?

Just a little side note on this, are you aware that there is a large correlation between place of residence and religion? You're born/raised hinu, you're a hindu - and that is the truth to you. You're born/raised christian, you're a christian - and that is the truth to you.

A devout hindu (or any religious person) and you both share one thing - you're both certain that your religion is the truth. Since locality, obviously, isn't a strong basis for a belief system, I ask again: what do you base the truth of your belief on? What makes you any more correct than a hindu, or a person from any faith for that matter? What makes christianity automatically \"the truth\" and, as it is monotheistic, what simultaneously makes every other religion wrong?

As much as I'd love to go round and round and round debating your interpretation of genesis, I think it would be kind of pointless wouldn't it.

There - I challenged him. Your statement proven beyond any doubt as FALSE. [/b]

Pretty funny story related to this kim. My mate just recently went on a 3 week tour around europe with his folks. As his dad's an architect they went into lots and lots of churches (and the vatican). My mate comes back and says to me "well, I proved that god didn't exist while I was over there. Every church I went into I stood there and challenged him, and the pussy didn't do anything". I think thats an awesome disproof of god

-spoon

When I was in the first grade, my favorite television show was a Japanese science fiction show called Space Giants. It was about an evil alien named Rodack who came to Earth to take it over. Three space robots were sent to Earth to stop Rodack from taking it over. Rodack wasn't much bigger than the average human, but the biggest space robot, Goldar, was about fifty feet tall. My father would watch it with me sometimes and make the point that Goldar could easily step on Rodack and end the whole problem on the spot. For some strange reason, Goldar didn't kill Rodack until the last episode, when Rodack turned into a fifty foot monster himself to fight Goldar instead of creating a fifty foot monster to attempt it.

That is how I see God and Satan. God could just step on Satan and end the whole problem in an instant. If there is some free will or whatever problem with that, then God could just step on that problem and end it. If there is a problem with that, God could step on that problem too, etc. Could he not?

Seriously, could he not? If somebody would explain how there could possibly be a problem an infinitely powerful being is UNABLE to step on, I would be honored and much more informed. Thanks. (Please explain exactly that and not some related issue. Quotes from the Bible will do nothing for me on this issue. I am looking for logic regarding my very specific issue, not general Bible school lectures.)

Originally posted by Universal Mind
(Please explain exactly that and not some related issue. Quotes from the Bible will do nothing for me on this issue. I am looking for logic regarding my very specific issue, not general Bible school lectures.)

Funny how nobody can answer you when you get so specific. But dont worry I'm sure Awaken will try something.

Yep, God is being challenged, alright. I suddenly have a strange urge to worship Kim.