Thread: Is God bound by any laws of reality?

Originally posted by boris
God is the infinite.

Doesn't anyone else find this ironic in light of boris' repeated claims that:

...simply infinity can not logically be reached ever. To reach infinite is illogical. You cannot say god can reach it therefore because illogic is not reality.

...

Infinity cannot be reached.

etc[/b]

So uh... whats the deal here. You engaged in ~4 pages of arguing because you think that infinity is illogical, yet here you just invoke a special exception and - voila! - infinity is reached. Special exceptions are seldom rational.

God will continue for eternity to evolve towards omnipotent.[/b]

I'm wondering how evolution fits into this sentence. Please understand that evolution != growth. There'd need to be some reproduction and competition for evolution to occur. How is god reproducing? Mitosis?

If god could be omnipotent. It would mean god is finished. But this is not possible ever. Infinity cannot be reached[/b]

You know this isn't even a good objection to omnipotence? Do you really think if it was this simple the theological concept would have lasted for millenia? Omnipotence is really all about frame of reference. God, being greater than our universe, can encompass it in its entirety. God, being greater than our universe, can easily be omnipotent by our standards. There's 2 standard justifications for omnipotence.

-sopon

Originally posted by InTheMoment

Saying that god is omnipotent limits god. For example, if god is all powerful then he is also all knowing. If god is all knowing then there is nothing that he can learn, because he already knows it. Therefore, there is NOTHING that can god can learn...so god cannot learn, thereby nulling his omnipotence.

ahh I love all this logic

These discussions have further driven home for me how illogical and almost contradictory it is to even have a God in existance . It is so illogical for there to be a God , and much simpler to not have one , and for everything to have simply evolved by itself . Think OCCAMS RAZOR people http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/OCCAMRAZ.html

Everything to have evolved by itself....

Itself=god!!! wooooah freaky isn't it. You thought god was something else.

I don't have time to explain about your argument again universal. I've done it more than 10 times. You lack understanding.

Originally posted by Boris
Everything to have evolved by itself....

Itself=god!!! wooooah freaky isn't it. You thought god was something else.

I don't have time to explain about your argument again universal. I've done it more than 10 times. You lack understanding.

So then , you believe that man evolved but that it was God who is the casue of this evolution . Tell me , what is it that makes you believe in this ? Do you take what the bible says to be true ? What is it that makes you think the bible is true . There are many other ancient texts which speak of God , but which turn out to be myths or stories to convey certain morals to people who found it hard to understand why morals are needed .

I think people as a whole can now understand why we need to have morals to live in harmony . So , why do we need these texts now ? They are redundant , stories to look back at and simply look at what we shouldnt do as people if we are to remain human .

Originally posted by Boris
Itself=god!!! wooooah freaky isn't it. You thought god was something else.

Wonderful. So, as far as this thread is concerned, you've said that god is "reality" and "itself". Would you maybe care to elaborate, or at least maybe stray from merely redefining a word? Wait...

"god" = "nothing"... hmmm we might be onto something..

...or redefining words to prove a concept of god might just be farcical.

Originally posted by darkmatic
So then , you believe that man evolved but that it was God who is the casue of this evolution . Tell me , what is it that makes you believe in this ?

It might be because he has no idea what evolutuion actually means. God evolving

-spoon

Originally posted by spoon
It might be because he has no idea what evolutuion actually means. God evolving

-spoon

I think its a good thing to note right now that evolution is not the spontaneous mutating of a creature . It is the slow changing of genes in a gene pool , where over time the advantageous genes or changes , which are given at birth , will give a certain organism a survival advantage , and hence will beable to pass those useful genes on to the next generation . Evolution is not a spontaneous mutation of a living creature , even though ignorance has led some to think this . For god to be truly evolving , he must die at some stage , and his predecessing God must be different somehow . And since most people believe in One god , then its not possible for a God living for eternity to evolve . So your whole argument , indeed your whole belief system boris , is impossible . How do you feel about that .

I feel that you do not understand what I am talking about. To me that is evident in your posts.

You refer to the bible and ask me why do I believe the bible and how do I know it's true. Again the bible has nothing to do with what I am saying. Leave it out of it. If you want my take on the bible. Then that is an entirely a different issue altogether.

I know the process of evolution which your talking about. Things don't apear out of thin air for no reason that are suddenly perfect. Nature evolves just like microsoft word evolved. Natures trial and error, adapting and improving, and getting better. That's just how god does things. So bill gates evolved his fortune too but that's beside the point.

I am also not redifining a word. [god] I am simply explaining aspects of the overall definition of it. Some do not understand the definition and that's the whole point of the misunderstanding.

If people are not god believers I totally respect that. But if something is illogical. Like the overall topic of this thread. I'll point it out. Athiest or not.

Originally posted by Boris
I feel that you do not understand what I am talking about. To me that is evident in your posts.

You refer to the bible and ask me why do I believe the bible and how do I know it's true. Again the bible has nothing to do with what I am saying. Leave it out of it. If you want my take on the bible. Then that is an entirely a different issue altogether.

I know the process of evolution which your talking about. Things don't apear out of thin air for no reason that are suddenly perfect. Nature evolves just like microsoft word evolved. Natures trial and error, adapting and improving, and getting better. That's just how god does things. So bill gates evolved his fortune too but that's beside the point.

I am also not redifining a word. [god] I am simply explaining aspects of the overall definition of it. Some do not understand the definition and that's the whole point of the misunderstanding.

If people are not god believers I totally respect that. But if something is illogical. Like the overall topic of this thread. I'll point it out. Athiest or not.

Okay then , but i am interested in your religious beliefs and where they come from . What religion do you put yourself in ? Which defining texts do you cite as the basis for your belief in religion ? I think i can count out christianity , as you must atlest have some grasp of evolution and thus cant be christian . Do you see that your not giving me much to work with ? Your making sweeping statements and talking about such general things as "God = evolution" that i just have no idea what you really think . If God = Everything , then god = pain , suffereing , hatred , and all things bad as well . Do you believe in that kind of God ?

I wonder , if you agree with what the TOE puts forth , why do you even need the concept of a creator ? Is it to give you comfort , to make you think that your special and not just the made of star dust like everything else ? Do you also agree with concepts such as the big bang ? I think if God plays no part in this universe , other than to set the ball rolling , then there is no point in getting caught up with God until after you die . For me though i guess it doesnt matter cos i dont believe in a God .

Originally posted by darkmatic
What religion do you put yourself in? Which defining texts do you cite as the basis for your belief in religion ? I think i can count out christianity , as you must atlest have some grasp of evolution and thus cant be christian . Do you see that your not giving me much to work with ?

What you are asking me here is. Tell me what organized belief system you fit into so I can know your beliefs. It does not work like that. You will know my beliefs when you know truth. Because that's all I strive to stick to. You may think what I say has no basis sometimes. That's because I can not tell you everything I know at once.

If a rocket scientist said I am going to the moon or something. And you asked. How are you going there? And they say. In this rocket we built with fuel etc etc. You then still do not understand all the details about how eaxctly it's done. You have to take the rocket scientist word for it that he knows the rocket will work! I'm not comparing myself to a rocket scientist it is an example.

I know alot of theosophy and have studied these kind of things we are debating alot. That's why I say that. I'm not putting myself above you.

But you just got to learn when u don't know about the rocket. And you got to learn when need to ask questions and recognize what you don't know about it. You can say. oh you don't know. Your just saying that the rocket works but you have no proof etc etc. The rocket scientist cannot help you if you don't have the attitude to learn. It would be impossible to convey anything.

The concept of a creator exists because things and reality exist. So there is a source of it. I don't care what u think that source is. It's only logical that there IS a source of it. So it does not give me comfort, this concept is only logical to me.

The fact we are not just material stardust of some kind that has a finite life. To go into that with you, would also be a technical subject of discussion to explain, and has nothing to do with the topic.

Originally posted by Boris


What you are asking me here is. Tell me what organized belief system you fit into so I can know your beliefs. It does not work like that. You will know my beliefs when you know truth. Because that's all I strive to stick to. You may think what I say has no basis sometimes. That's because I can not tell you everything I know at once.

If a rocket scientist said I am going to the moon or something. And you asked. How are you going there? And they say. In this rocket we built with fuel etc etc. You then still do not understand all the details about how eaxctly it's done. You have to take the rocket scientist word for it that he knows the rocket will work! I'm not comparing myself to a rocket scientist it is an example.

I know alot of theosophy and have studied these kind of things we are debating alot. That's why I say that. I'm not putting myself above you.

But you just got to learn when u don't know about the rocket. And you got to learn when need to ask questions and recognize what you don't know about it. You can say. oh you don't know. Your just saying that the rocket works but you have no proof etc etc. The rocket scientist cannot help you if you don't have the attitude to learn. It would be impossible to convey anything.

The concept of a creator exists because things and reality exist. So there is a source of it. I don't care what u think that source is. It's only logical that there IS a source of it. So it does not give me comfort, this concept is only logical to me.

The fact we are not just material stardust of some kind that has a finite life. To go into that with you, would also be a technical subject of discussion to explain, and has nothing to do with the topic.

Yes , i asked where your going , you say to the moon , i ask how your getting there , you say "i already told you , or , you wouldnt understand" . So i just shrug and keep walking .

My comments are so last page, but I don't find a problem with God not learning anything new outside his creation. Knowing everything is actually a good thing and even that does not limit his omnipotence at all. Saying that God cannot be omnipotent because he never is surprised is inaccurate. It is worth comtemplating God may acquire new knowledge, the source being his very being.

When Christ comes again, God will have dealt again with all laws both physical and man-made. For it is written, there will be no more need for any laws, for we will finally be fully in the presence of God. There no law is necessary. God and expression of his glory becomes our will, our good and our law.

Praise the Lord

Originally posted by boris
The concept of a creator exists because things and reality exist. So there is a source of it. I don't care what u think that source is. It's only logical that there IS a source of it. So it does not give me comfort, this concept is only logical to me.

So, in the 6 paragraph response to the question "what do you believe" that darkmatic put to you, this is the only on point response. I just wanted to point out that this is a completely illogical proof for a creator. Lets step it out:

1) Reality exists
2) Everything must have a source
3) Therefore reality must have a source
4) Therefore there is a creator (ala. the source)

Yet this reasoning traps you in an infinite loop. Reality exists, the creator created it, the creator exists, the creator^2 created it, ad infinitum. At some point you have to invent some sort of special rule to get yourself out of this loop. For this reasoning to prove anything you need to have a point where a creator does not have a source.

If you believe that the creator does not have a source (which I think that religious people must..) than you are acknowledging that existence does not always need a source. If existence does not need a source, why then does reality? About here occam's razor kicks in....

-spoon

Originally posted by spoon+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spoon)</div>

to get yourself out of this loop[/b]

You will never get out of it. Infinity is a law of reality.

Originally posted by spoon+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spoon)</div>

If you believe that the creator does not have a source[/b]

The source of the souce is the souce ofcourse. of the source it is of the source. To infinity and beyond. now u made me sound like a super hero dam you.

<!--QuoteBegin-spoon@
you are acknowledging that existence does not always need a source

No I am not. Nothing magically exists. Don't try and argue with a strawman you built. I never said that.

<!--QuoteBegin-spoon
If existence does not need a source, why then does reality?

The source of reality IS reality. Be careful your brain might explode about now from overload.

Originally posted by BorisStarseed
The source of the souce is the souce ofcourse. of the source it is of the source. To infinity and beyond. now u made me sound like a super hero dam you.

Down Syndrome Man?

Originally posted by Boris

I don't have time to explain about your argument again universal. I've done it more than 10 times. You lack understanding.

Then, once again, quote it. What you quoted last time did not qualify as a DIRECT COUNTER ARGUMENT. Let's see it, lying coward. Do you really think you are fooling anybody? Explain the illogic of my reasoning, for once.

Originally posted by Universal Mind


Then, once again, quote it. What you quoted last time did not qualify as a DIRECT COUNTER ARGUMENT. Let's see it, lying coward. Do you really think you are fooling anybody? Explain the illogic of my reasoning, for once.

your statement cannot be disproved logically. It is logically perfectly sound. The only way I see around it is thinking outside of the box.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

I consider that our present sufferings are not worthy being compared with the glory that will be revealed in us.

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I cry to you my Lord, my rock! Do not be deaf to me, for if you are silent, I shall go down to the pit like the rest. Hear my voice raised in petition as I cry to you for help, as I raise my hands, my
Lord, toward your holy of holies.
The sun will no more be your light by day, nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you, for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.
Go now Sons of God. Fulfill your Destiny!
Praise the Lord! Amen!

Originally posted by UniversalMind+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(UniversalMind)</div>

Let's see it, lying coward.[/b]

infinity cannot be reached. So you cannot be all knowing. So you cannot be all powerful. If you think there is not a infinite amount of things to know. Show me how it is finite. Else you can't disprove that. Second nothing is bound or beyond laws of reality it impossible. If it is possible to be beyond or bound by laws of reality, if it is possible to reach infinity. Show me how. Again you havn't shown this, because it is impossible and illogical and you can't. I thought it is fairly simple where the illogic is.

<!--QuoteBegin-inthemoment
Down Syndrome Man?

The thing I find funny about you inthemoment is when you are not capable of discussing things anymore you can't think what else to do, but you must continue so you then try to insult the person through some sort of irrelevance. Sometimes I play along other times I ignore you. One thing clear to me is you don't have the reasoning power to discuss anything beyond your ring pass not. Which from my observation is somewhere around the first post of this topic. I'd love for you to prove otherwise but I dont think you can.

By the way why has a guest posted. Guests are not suppose to have the ability to post here.

Boris, you have not countered my point. I said that IF a being were infinitely powerful and totally good there would be no suffering. You said that my point is illogical. I asked for the counter, and you responded by saying that a being cannot be infinitely powerful. I agree that a being cannot be infinitely powerful, but my analysis of the hypothetical scenario was logical. Saying that the elements of a hypothetical are not real does not qualify as a counter to a point made about the hypothetical. If you say, "If John Lennon had not been killed, the Beatles would have gotten back together," I would not be countering your point by saying, "Your point is illogical. John Lennon was killed." So, again, why was my point illogical?

Originally posted by Universal Mind
I asked for the counter, and you responded by saying that a being cannot be infinitely powerful. I agree that a being cannot be infinitely powerful

Then why are we arguing? It is not possible a being can be infinitely powerful. You agree it is not possible. What is the problem?

I'll tell you the real problem: God is not a being!

We only think of it that way because there is no other way to even begin talking about it (e.g. God=He is also God=He=She=We=It). Always keep in mind while discussing these things that we are limited beings, and God is not! Therefore any limitation you have that you project onto God is incorrect. For example: God cannot reach infinity. We, limited beings, cannot understand infinity from an individual perspective, but God can because He is That. There is no difference between Infinite Knowledge/Power and God, they are the same thing. God is not a being who "has" knowledge or power, for that would imply that He is something separate from knowledge or power. There is no separation in God, He is All.

Also keep in mind that when we say God is omniscient, that does not mean He understands things in the way we do (with limited rational understanding, or "learned", discursive knowledge). He understands it with intuitive knowledge because He is Knowledge. It is just like you "know" you exist, no one had to tell you that, it is intuitive. Discursive knowledge is indirect and mediate knowledge, and therefore relative knowledge, gained by reflection or participation. Because of its character of exteriority, which allows of the duality of subject and object, it cannot find within itself the guarantee of its truth, but must receive it from the principle which surpasses it and which is of the order of intuitive, i.e., of purely intellectual knowledge.

Originally posted by syzygy
I'll tell you the real problem: God is not a being!

We only think of it that way because there is no other way to even begin talking about it (e.g. God=He is also God=He=She=We=It). Always keep in mind while discussing these things that we are limited beings, and God is not! Therefore any limitation you have that you project onto God is incorrect. For example: God cannot reach infinity. We, limited beings, cannot understand infinity from an individual perspective, but God can because He is That. There is no difference between Infinite Knowledge/Power and God, they are the same thing. God is not a being who "has" knowledge or power, for that would imply that He is something separate from knowledge or power. There is no separation in God, He is All.

Also keep in mind that when we say God is omniscient, that does not mean He understands things in the way we do (with limited rational understanding, or "learned", discursive knowledge). He understands it with intuitive knowledge because He is Knowledge. It is just like you "know" you exist, no one had to tell you that, it is intuitive. Discursive knowledge is indirect and mediate knowledge, and therefore relative knowledge, gained by reflection or participation. Because of its character of exteriority, which allows of the duality of subject and object, it cannot find within itself the guarantee of its truth, but must receive it from the principle which surpasses it and which is of the order of intuitive, i.e., of purely intellectual knowledge.

A very eloquent but thoroughly useless description of reality.