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    Thread: What is the reason of your existence?

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      What is the reason of your existence?

      Hello,
      I noticed that many people don't know why they are alive,what should they do, just ¿ ,

      Afterall, it's really hard to believe that the existance has just appeared with no reasons and it was born from nothing...

      When i was a kid i wondered " what is the beginning of everything, why it exist something like the sky, why does it have such a colour and where is its end ?, why are we the only creatures that exist, there are many other planets" when i asked my mother she said that there is a god that created all of it , when i asked "who is god ? " my mother described God through his creations...

      I learned that god is the most powerful, he is perfect,he creates such wonderful things that we are stunned by them such perfect creatures such a creativity it's so far from the humans creativity,he is kind, he isn't like us he isn't weak he do whatever ever he want....

      Stunned by it as a kid i asked my mother "what do god look like ?" She only replied that we can't see him nor imagine him , i felt like "why can't we" then i learned that god is so perfect that only seeing him is the description of how he look like even if someone saw him he can't discribe him, he is a God and we are humans we can't be compared and also we can't imagine something like that it's impossible...as humans we only expect any creature to breath and have eyes like us we are so closed that we have borders even in our imagination we could only imagine something that is somilar to us not far from the human form... god is so proud he can't be in an animal shape, if he was like that then i won't worship an animal i don't need a god like that i need a perfect one... that behave like a god, and a god isn't this cheap and that i can't understand why he is like that and why he do things like that....so that i could see my level as a human and feel how great he is...

      Then, i wanted to know "where is God" since he is so great i don't think he would be in a place like earth it's so cheap for the great God to live here , since he created all of those things he should have created a great place for him too a place that suits a God... why is god so far ? How can i talk to him ? I want to know why he created me ! I was so happy that i knew who is god and that he really exist because if he didn't nothing would be normal how were humans created it's not from a monkey it's impossible ..if it was then there must be other creatures that have such a developed brain ,also in the first place monkeys should have also a developed brain like the humans one but it never existed , if we ever say that a human existed this way then if a human was married to a monkey and live with monkey he would be an animal with no development. ..... and i was never an animal and i don't have a monkey grandfather and if it existed then i'm not tolerating it i'm too proud to have an animal first grandfather and it's not true scientifically it was a theory so let is be a theory since it is too far to be true

      So, if God created me then he allowed me to know him what am i supposed to do ?
      He named himself "God" , he must be worshipped by his creatures, what is it to worship him ? I'm not a kid anymore xD, worship is to be loyal to your god to worship only him to do what he say and don't do what he say you shouldn't...

      What is the relationship between a god a his creature? For me i feel like it's a creator-creature relationship it's a warm one, i'm so happy to have such a kind creator , in addition he gave me the right to wish things that "i" want and the ability to choose things i want to do , he gave me feelings so that i could enjoy , he gave me colours and even made beautiful landscapes for us so that we wouldn't be bored ....

      Well the religion i should choose is the one that the description of god is right and that the rules of god are more logical and good, i choosed islam because god is described as a god he is proud he is alone he is the powerful that doesn't need anything, he has everything, he is impartial, he isn't a human, he is perfect i can't imagine how he look like because he is so great, he has no equals and if someone claimed it then he should face the consequences and see who is god when the final day come, and he even let us choose and say if we are satisfied that he is our god...

      Maybe some people see Quran as a torture book but tell me, if you are an owner of something and this thing that you created has a bad attitude and do bad things wouldn't it be better to scare it with a really scary thing so that maybe this thing would fear and be a good thing ....

      Islam never allowed terrorism, my God never allowed someone to kill another ( exept when you have a right like he tried to kill you ( the only case )), the whole book talk many times about is you killed someone with no right the consequences are very bad and also even if it was unintentionally you have to fast two months + give an amount of money to the family of that killed person ,believe me it's so baaaaaaad to kill those terrorist fo you know where is the terrorism it's the part of them that used quran to trick young people and use their faith in god to kill others a terrorist is someone that used young Muslim's faith and gave them false interpretations.... those fight versus in Quran as destinated to the prophet when he was facing those people who wanted to kill him and muslims, we could only obey those orders when the same thing happen another time when the event is re happening but due to sick people interpretation we have terrorism, in my country we had them they were killing every single person when they feel like it and when you ask them why they answer by i kill you and you go according to your intentions, what the hell are you talking about..... this is why it's far from islam if it was then there will be 1,5 billion crazy killer but thanks to god it's not

      But god will punish them and give those killed people their rights, if they think that they are going to paradise then they should go to hell first...and i'm happy that they will get the worst punishment ever because they are so scary and they don't have the right to kill themselves also so killing themselves + people is the worst

      Please i would be so happy to hear what do you guys live for ??
      Last edited by Sakki; 03-28-2016 at 06:14 PM. Reason: Writing errors
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    2. #2
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      Islam doesn't allow terrorism, but it does promote female genital mutilation so that she doesn't feel pleasure during intercourse, although circumcision is certainly no better either; so don't feel I'm just picking on Islam here. You describe God as a perfect being that we can't comprehend. You say that in order to do the right thing, essentially, you need to accept God as your only God, love him, and heed his word. But, if God gave us the ability to feel emotions and have the free will to make our own decisions, why would he need to tell us to do something like mutilate our genitals to reduce sexual pleasure? I can see some practical reasons for it given the time period it started showing up, but that's not really answering my question. Why would God need to tell us to do anything or not do anything at all? Why can't he simply work from the background, behind the scenes, in strange and mysterious ways... as he's often described as doing? Why does he have to work behind the scenes at all? We can't comprehend his actions, so there could be a very valid reason for not interfering whatsoever (in fact it goes against the principal of giving us free will in the first place). The only reason he would interfere is to prove his existence to his children, and if it's obvious that he was needed for this all to exist, then why would he need to interfere at all?

      We can come up with all kinds of reasons why God would want to do something or not do something at all, but our points would never be valid because they have the bias of human perspective. However, an omniscient and omnipotent God would be so far and away different from what we comprehend, that his existence doesn't require explicit rules on us to be set. It would make a lot more sense to say that the only rules needed in the first place would be the laws of physics, considering we observe them and can confirm their existence. Setting the initial conditions and creating the stage whereupon these conditions unfold would be enough for things to settle themselves out. Why does God favor humans over his other creations... namely, everything? Why would he care for us more than cosmic dust, a sun, asteroids, water, or literally anything else? Would it's existence in itself not have enough inherent beauty and significance in the first place? There is no need for us to cut our reproductive organs or to have single sexual partners, not to lie, or anything else. The fact we have them at all would be amazing itself. The rest would be on us to sort out, which it seems we have been doing. Humans like to manipulate one another, and making claims like God told them that we need to do this or that is a terrifyingly easy excuse to have for so many people to believe it. If only one religion is right, then why would so many people claim the same thing? Is God's original message just getting lost in translation because human will? That does not necessitate his fallibility, but it doesn't exclude it. More likely, the God anyone claims to believe originally started as an exploit to control other people, or somebody was generally confused or believed in what they thought, and someone along the line wound up exploiting it and controlling people.

      It wouldn't be outside God's abilities to communicate with human beings, but if such an imperfect being communicates with him, they will always misunderstand what he says. If not the original person, than all the people that listen to them. It's not possible for there to be an objective view on anything as a human being, so no one can know what God truly wants us to do. You said it yourself, we can't comprehend God, his motives, or actions. It doesn't mean then that he is not omnipotent, but that his omnipotence would interfere with what we say he gifted us with. Either we have free will, and God chooses not to dictate our actions or interfere with them, or we have no free will at all. There isn't a scenario that allows for this to happen. Well, actually there is, that God wants all that happens to happen, which is virtually the same as not doing anything at all, but could possibly have a different motivation behind it. God could want to do something but be stopping himself in order to allow us free will, or he never wanted us to have free will in the first place. And, if the latter is true, there could be plenty of reasons behind it. Either that he doesn't care, that it doesn't matter, that it matters... period (that it's meaning is for it to happen), that it matters for reasons beyond its mere existence, etc.

      Now, if God made the entire universe, how can he interfere with it? If he is outside it (which he must be in order to create it in the first place), how can he influence it from the outside? If he enters it, he would be subject to his own laws. In order to exist at all in the first place, we have to note the natural laws we would observe. He would be subject to those laws upon entering the universe, which means he gains a perspective. Perceptual perspective only exists by excluding all understanding and knowledge of something. In order to know left, from right, from up, from down, and from past to future is to exist from a single (or virtually single) spot, and to observe all things in comparison to this spot as a preferred reference frame. That negates omnipotence when acting from within the universe. Which makes sense according to what we observe, at the very least. God made laws that the universe abides by, although they appear to change under certain extreme conditions that we don't understand very well and could only change in appearance due to negation or impossibility of some of the laws to exist the more extreme a system gets. In other words, the other laws arise out of complexity arising from simplicity. Kind of like the difference between cells human beings, a conglomerate of those cells working in tandem to produce awareness and agency. The complexity manifests from the simplicity naturally. Anyway, I digress.

      If God is outside our universe, he can't interfere with it, because to us he does not exist. If God is inside the universe (or the whole universe), he is separated into as many fragments as there are particles. This and the laws he put in place would completely hinder his omnipotence. He would still be capable of great power (potentially), but he can't defy the rules he set up in the first place. So, why tell us to do all these things that interferes with our free will? Why tell us anything at all? Why is not his existence as the medium through which anything is allowed to exist at all not good enough for us? Why should it be bad or good at all? It is only from a human perspective. However, his great and vast universe would allow for other forms of life, why value ours over their's? Is intelligence a factor in deciding something's worth? If the sun didn't exist, the moon didn't exist, the earth didn't exist, it none of what existed existed in the first place, we could not exist (lol, obviously). Why are they not equally valuable? What is so special about us that the things that made us, and allowed for our existence (and continued existence) not just as special as us, but in different ways and for different reasons? Why do just humans get souls and afterlives but not animals? Don't planets get to exist all over again, even if they were never alive to begin with? Well, nothing says that has to be the case, but that's outside the realm of what we can falsify and test, kind of like God. We can't prove or disprove that it happens or does not. However, I just don't see why God would need to impose rules on us besides the ones that created the universe in the first place when we can make our own, because really it doesn't matter to anything else? It's just better that we impose rules on ourselves for us, which we should do because we cherish the time we are given to spend with each other. God doesn't need to tell us what to do, and from what we observe, it's much more probable and likely that he in fact he has not and does not. The only proof we have comes from people with too much to gain from it, where as God simply never told us what to do in the first place. He gave us the choice to do what we want, even according to you. We made all that other stuff up, and have done all these evil and good things we have ever done to each other throughout history to each other; which, I might add, is both humbling, awesome, and terrifying, grotesque, beautiful, happy, sad, and everything in between... We can choose how we feel about it (assuming we have free will at all of course ).

      This idea, and this idea alone is enough for me to be good to my fellow human beings, to forgive and forget, for there to be times where I break my own rules and everybody else's, times where I follow them, and for things to still have meaning and be great all on its own. Whether or not God exists is still a mystery to me, which is why I don't really say he does or does not, simply that I don't know. However, the other stuff people posit about God is all made up to me, and I find it an interesting way to examine humankind's own psychological evolution over the course of time, which in itself is a beautiful thing. Things don't lose meaning because God does or does not exist, or whether he cares about us or not. The meaning we come up with means what it means, it just is. We can't always control what we believe either, and that's okay.
      Last edited by snoop; 03-30-2016 at 01:57 AM.
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      Thank you so much for sharing your beliefs and taking time to write them .
      That mutilation subject,it isn't really popular among girls since they can choose...it is more for boys who should but girls it isn't an obligation...i read once that it is for those females who has a high sexual arousal,so, it isn't really popular among females since it isn't an obligation.

      It's not like i'm answering your questions but i'll be telling you my point of view...the fact about evil and goodness existing at the same time is that there must be a test,afterall a right and wrong answer can't exist without a question ,also being limited by time,enduring consequences...aren't they just characteristics of a test...this is why i believe that we are here because we are tested...having all those things at our disposition,everything was created for us,if we could destroy a planet then we are allowed...why are we the only creatures that have such a developed brain,and why is it only us,and we can do what ever we want...isn't it like a test! Could it be that the limit of our test time is out death...

      But the fact that even stars, planets,plants and cosmic dust just doesn't have feeling and a different shape,doesn't it mean that they were created in a different way from us...even animals we are just "not" the same different creation with no intelligence... why would they be too empty and blank creatures and more importantly at out disposition,it is in the big test where you get blank things and you do what you want with your pencil, once the time is finished your pen will no longer be yours, it's the paper of your answers that will save you or just throw you.... the reason behind god giving us everything is logically to see what will we be doing with them ,even though he know but we are passing the test to see for ourself if he just rewarded good people and puts bad people in hell they would be just like "what did we do" this isn't fair ,this is why it's for us to see,he already know what happened and what will and what is the end of everything, it's more like a proof to shut us up with it since we talk more than we act .....

      there is inside every human an evil inner-self that only want to have fun,it isn't satan who is pushing them to do bad things,he give them the idea and the evil innerself is the big enemy,since satan can't touch you or do whatever to oblige you... so,the test is about the priority will you give it to your god or your self ?... if you see people who just can't control it they are just killing out of joy and stealing people's money and they can't stop because it is so fun having money without work,it is one of it's characteristics,there is always a pinch of pain inside your heart when you give a big some of money to some poor people,the question shouldn't be why do i have to give them all this, but it woyld be more why do i feel this way and i did a good thing... since god only want good things ( you may saw that some of them go against things that are enjoying but quite harmful) it is in reality to see who will you prefer to obey yourself of god ..... as a creature you need to make you creator the priority...

      i don't know if you believe in ghosts but they are the only ones that we can have problem with them because they have typically the same brain as ours and ridiculously strong ,but i don't know how do they look like or anything but i know that we are protected by being in a different dimensions, they have their own one and i only believe in them because i had a personal experience and i fully believe in their existence but a lot of them are bad this is why we are protected and they are forbidden to harm us, this mean that we are put even in a different dimension since we are tested both....

      God is like i told you earlier,we can't see him from a human view, he is everywhere and the closest to you and kbow what you are doing and what will you do and what will be the consequence if you choosed every single possible act of the existance.... it's something that we can't imagine we have a human brain after all,this is why if god as you are saying came it would be in an other dimension a dimension that fit a god not our dimension even our souls when we die,they leave the body to another dimension, that dimension of dead people that we can't go to or even touch..... it is really complicated how everything is working at the same time... also God isn't influenced by time he created time so time is for us not for him and also it's not like god just left everything working on it's own there still a strange power making everything keep working we can't understand really how everything is just like that and why of all is the earth the only one that have such conditions and plants...

      humans in the fist place can't come up with the idea of god it is so far to imagine , when i was a kid and was only told that there is a god i liked the clouds ,they were so clean, can't reach,high,wonderful and pure white i though it was god but when i assumed that there is only one i was disappointed , why was i ?,i was because i wanted to worship what i like , i wanted to worship it such an easy end of story (laziness),was it a pleasure to worship what myself want...but when i knew that a god is someone that you can't choose whether you want or not it isn't about want it is about duty,it is important to be loyal to your creator or you are a failure, i want to know what is my name for him,my parents gave me a name but it my human body name, but what did my creator named me well it would be according to my characteristics and you too...

      God isn't that kind of human that are arrogant, even if we are such annoying creations he still listening to our wishes and our prayers, he didn't talked to us because firstly, we are weak to bear something like that we are talkig about perfectness and extreme greatness and he is really far from being something that we expectex a little so after life is where everyone will talk to him ( exept some category sinners ) and only some people will be able to see him as a final reward... and also you can't see the answer in the middle of the test, if it wS like that then everyone will believe and there is no point from the test ...

      the world will end someday,the sun won't be able to stay alive also resources will just disappear because humans wilk use it all , it seems far but it isn't.

      it will be nonsense to be created, or just appeared for nothing but to die in the end in a world running to an end ,will we just stop existing with when the earth die with the sun and loke nonsense,and why is there painful things...if it is like that i'm not interested in sucha world...

      maybe you see it as a beautiful world, if it was really then we would be all happy, not parts of humans having wars and people dying from hunger while we are just enjoying summer vacation with a glass of red wine,there are people bleeding that wine colour...and in the first place if it was this beautiful we would stay on it and not run to dream world ( who seem to be cooler and nicer) where you are only with yourself alone but having fun,runnig from humans...i run too,afterall i'm just a typical human that isn't really interested nor have the ability to enjoy such a bloody world , no matter what you do evilness is still the most dominant,yeas there is good people but not enough,this world has a beautiful nature and this is all the beauty matter....sorry for being pessimist but it's truth.

      thank you so much for sharing your point of view.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sakki View Post
      Hello,
      I noticed that many people don't know why they are alive,what should they do, just ¿ ,
      Anything more than this is dishonest. One may pretend to know why he is alive, but one can never know for sure if there is a reason or what that reason is.

      Quote Originally Posted by Sakki View Post
      Afterall, it's really hard to believe that the existance has just appeared with no reasons
      This is the logical fallacy of personal incredulity. It holds no weight.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sakki View Post
      and it was born from nothing...
      This is an assumption, and is not necessarily related to the concept of reason or purpose.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sakki View Post
      Well the religion i should choose
      Can you choose what to believe? I don't think you can. I challenge you on this. Choose to believe that I am a dinosaur. Please, let me know how convinced you now are that I am a dinosaur, in order to show that it is possible.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sakki View Post
      i choosed islam because god is described as a god he is proud he is alone he is the powerful that doesn't need anything, he has everything, he is impartial, he isn't a human, he is perfect i can't imagine how he look like because he is so great, he has no equals and if someone claimed it then he should face the consequences and see who is god when the final day come, and he even let us choose and say if we are satisfied that he is our god...
      How do you know?
      Quote Originally Posted by Sakki View Post
      Maybe some people see Quran as a torture book but tell me, if you are an owner of something and this thing that you created has a bad attitude and do bad things wouldn't it be better to scare it with a really scary thing so that maybe this thing would fear and be a good thing ....
      Argument from the club logical fallacy. "I'm right because I'm bigger than you. That makes me correct. Since I can hurt you it means that I am right and you are wrong."

      I'll cover the rest of this later.
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      Thank you so much for joining us !

      First of all, we aren't talking about only "me" i only shared my experience and my beliefs, so tell us more about you and your point of view...

      As you said "my personal incredulity" ,it is really hard to believe that the world existed just by it's own , from where did it start from a black hole ?... after that the earth was formed but from where did animals and plants just showed up ?...and more importantly why does animals have such different varieties? Why no one look like the other ... and also there are even some of them who just is born from an egg how did we appear and why only us ... so it must be weird.

      Yes i can choose what to believe , but in specific mesures...for example we aren't talking about fruits of something physical, be cause if you said that you are a dinosaur, it is something that i can slove with my brain , you look like me , you talk like me and you eat like me.... well i'm not that ignorant to distinguish something with my brain.... but when we meet just like that and then we hang on then you tell me that you work as a architect,after a while i meet anoyher person that happen to know you and tell me that you work as a business man, Here i can choose what to believe because i can't use my brain since i don't have enough informations about the two of you.... and this is similar to what to believe in religion you only have physical informations but contradicted spiritual informations which one will you believe? Or will you stay as a natural observer ?

      I know because it's the only religion that have such a god,that satisfy my beliefs and my logic of thinking ,and the fact that i choosed islam is because it suits me and it doesn't mean that you should too you are free and i hate to criticise other religions because i have my own reasons but it will just make people sad somehow to hear me talking in a critical way so i'll pass this part of criticism...

      No it isn't like that it is more like a hook up for the evilness, well there are many bad people if it was like " you will go to hell. " who know how hell look like and it could be not that bad , but if it is described what bad people will get then it's more scary and make you take another look about what you want to do....
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sakki View Post
      As you said "my personal incredulity" ,it is really hard to believe that the world existed just by it's own , from where did it start from a black hole ?... after that the earth was formed but from where did animals and plants just showed up ?...and more importantly why does animals have such different varieties? Why no one look like the other ... and also there are even some of them who just is born from an egg how did we appear and why only us ... so it must be weird.
      We don't know if it started from a black hole or whatever, but anyone that claims they know for certain that we know where the universe came from is lying. Any idea that someone puts forth has a possibility of being correct, but there is no way to prove it. So, how do we know God created the universe? Why do we have these rules that God supposedly imposed on us that happen to be different in every religion? If we can't prove God exists, why should we follow those rules? Let's bring up the genital mutilation again. It's painful, and reduces sexual pleasure. In this day and age, there really isn't a place for it. If we can't prove God exists, why should we cause others pain and to not be able to enjoy sex? Sure, we can't prove God doesn't exist, but that doesn't mean he does, nor does it mean we should follow "God's" words or commandments, because we don't know if they are even real commandments or if God even exists. If a black hole created the universe, should we worship the awesome powers of black holes? They might not tell us what to do, but we should they them as holy then, right? You can't disprove black holes created the universe, so if we let God command us and guide our decision making process, we should also let anything else that people believe created the universe guide our principals, establish our values, and create traditions--even if they are barbaric and cause us pain and suffering.

      Can you see why your argument in this case simply isn't valid? The very argument you are using to say that somebody should believe in God or to prove that God exists is self-defeating. It actually says we shouldn't believe God exists at all. It's a very common argument I hear. As a matter of fact, a majority of arguments I hear believers posit are all similarly flawed. If they applied them to their own beliefs, their beliefs would be invalidated. However, since it happens to be their personal belief, one that makes sense to them... makes them comfortable and less afraid about existential questions and dying, it is somehow different and above the argument that they are making. Some how it has total immunity, and it shouldn't--it's totally illogical. It's also a logical fallacy to believe that an opposing party's lack of evidence is proof that one's own argument is valid. Just because we can't say what created the universe doesn't mean God exists. Even if he does, it doesn't prove that he wants us to only worship him or that he wants us to be faithful to just one person, never lie, murder someone, etc., or we will go to hell for eternity. That in itself is an entirely different supposition to the idea that God exists and is almost a loftier claim than the one that God exists. And, as I already stated before, if someone can't disprove your claim, it doesn't make it true. If it actually did, then any claim for what God is, what he wants us to do, or if something else created the universe is equally valid. It's simply not an argument you can make.

      As far as animals having varieties, we have plenty of evidence supporting evolution. There is a difference between evolution and the theory of evolution (and for that matter, a difference between a theory as it is commonly defined and used in casual contexts, and a scientific theory). Evolution is a fact. We observe that organisms adapt to their environment, that genetic mutations take place, and that over time, changes start to accumulate. We have not actually seen huge changes, like an ape-like ancestor becoming a human, for example. However, fossil evidence, and the observed "micro" evolution (which is really just evolution flat out, there isn't an actual difference between micro and macro evolution) all corroborate this. The Theory of Evolution is what explains the phenomenon. The theory and the fact are separate from one another, and as I've already covered, a scientific theory doesn't have the same meaning as the "theory" we use in every day conversation. While we are on the subject of the Theory of Evolution, it does not make any statements about abiogenesis. Abiogenesis is defined as "the process by which life arises naturally from non-living matter". So the argument that life could never arise from non-living matter disproves the Theory of Evolution is not valid.

      As far as "why only us" goes, we have no idea whether it's just us or not. Saying that we are the only planet with life in the universe is not only highly unlikely, but is tantamount to claiming God exists and has a set of rules he wants us to follow. We have no way to prove that it's just us. You can't claim something is true when we don't know if it's true or not. If you mean, why are we the only intelligent species on the earth, that's a bit different. We know several animals are well on their way to have intelligence like us, just look at dolphins. Just because we are the "first" ones (which we don't really know that either) doesn't mean that sometime in the far future, another species may become as intelligent as we are now. The fact that we are so destructive to the environment and such an effective apex predator and kill so many other animals might even prevent them from ever getting there.

      All in all, it's fine to ask the questions you are asking, but you are making a lot of assumptions. Not to mention, the questions do not replace the need for evidence in supporting your claims.
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      I truly believe that we will never know our true purpose. I believe that they brought out the Big bang theory because it seems like a logical explanation for our existence. They can't prove god at all, it's personal and it's different for everyone.

      I don't think god has an agenda, more or less a personality.
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      Hi all,I've had a similar debate once it never ends no matter what nobody gets the upper hand and to be honest in the end it gets boring,but I liked the way you approached it ,people have preconceived ideas about Islam,and it's not their faults it's their sources for example circumcision,they think it's obligatory for women's and it's not so,as circumcision for men it's to prevent sexual diseases and Jewish people do it aswell ,it doesn't mean that it's okay if they imposed it on women's I think it's sick and Islam didn't say women's should be circumcised sorry Sakki it's done in some part of the world as a way to control the sexual life of their daughters or wives while they are away.......
      I for myself I love God and his only the sure thing in my life and he represents everything that is beautiful and peaceful when I pray or read the Quran everything is delegated to another dimension , and I think people or readers alike who put Moslems in one basket aren't the culprits it's politics and of course the media ,and who are we simple people to win this old argument , as for peace in the world it's an old cliche they are promoting hatred wars everything that is evil ,and we are all becoming aggressive even when defending a simple point of view , I for myself I became blasé from all this nonsense and I hope God will end this charade that is our lives soon because evils are getting more sophisticated soon they will be permitting cannibalism !,slaughtering,crucifying,guns bombs,are getting old fashion and we people around the world from allreligion are paying the price. Sorry guys sometimes it gets so bad here with the war and all that in my desperation I wish that the Americans would be merciful and just drop a nuclear bomb and that's it .so is this pessimistic or is this pessimistic?i still love God !
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      I don't think there is anything wrong with loving God. I just think there is something wrong with forcing people to love God too. Or, for what you think (but have no way of knowing) God has told us to do should be forced on others too. If you believe God exists, and you want to make personal decisions about what you think he wants you to do, and those decisions only affect you, then I couldn't care less. That's great you have something that makes your life feel complete, gives you hope and a sense of purpose and certainty. It shouldn't affect those who don't want it to affect them, which means it has no place in government or anything that tells other people what to do or how to live whatsoever. You should respect whatever they believe, provided they follow those same rules/ideas/principals I just laid out, and they should respect whatever you believe too. They don't have to acknowledge it as true, and they can even dislike you for it, but they don't have any right to persecute you or tell you what to do because they have different ideas(and vice versa).

      That's the beef I have with nearly every institutionalized religion, because they don't respect those boundaries, impose rules on others, and tell them what to believe. There is no evidence or any way to prove that what they claim is the word of God actually is, and so it becomes a human rights issue and source of conflict. There is no logical reason for why anybody should fight or have their rights sacrificed over this. That's why I have an issue with it. I don't have an issue with you claiming God is real, but I will expect evidence to be presented and for it to be legitimate and convincing. You should also have no issue with me telling you that I don't think you are right, and when I give reasons why, and you disagree, we should agree to disagree if neither of us is willing to budge. It is sad that it would be that way, but that outcome doesn't hurt anybody or take anyone's rights away. Institutionalized religion on the other hand does, and that is why I think it's an actual problem.
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      Hi snoop ,I know that you are a gnostic and I respect that and to be honest I have read many of your statements and I like the way you defend your point of view in any arguments ,but to me it's the simple things and the obvious aswell that makes me believe in God I will get back to that ,I don't want people to impose their beliefs on me so on what grounds should I permit myself to do it,Islam never forces you to become a Moslem there is no verse in the Quran meaning that .it's your choice like any other religion its you who decides ,when I was around sixteen I woke up one morning and I told my father that I'm a gnostic now and that I didn't believe in God anymore,he was gentle with me he wasn't shocked he acted normal and he asked me to write a paper and state the reasons for not believing in God anymore and to presented to him in a week time ?..sorry I have to go gun shots near my house write later God willing!
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      Firstly, I'll say that I am not a Christian or a follower of any religion. Nonetheless, I see the humanist wisdom that is passed down through many ancient traditions, such as the Bible. It is as ripe with wisdom as the works of Plato or Aristotle or any of the Western philosophers that follow. It even shares some themes with Eastern traditions (cf. Book of Ecclesiastes). But there is also prejudice and propaganda in all those works. I would be a fool to claim, absolutely, to know the right from the wrong. Or, in the Bible's own poetic words, to separate the wheat from the chaff.

      I offer this passage from Isaiah 45:9-11. First, the King James Version, which is rather poetic:

      Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker!
      Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth.
      Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
      Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
      Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker,
      Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
      Now, the same passage from a different translation which is less poetic but more understandable, the International Standard Version:

      Woe to the one who quarrels with his makers,
      a mere potsherd with the potsherds of the earth!
      Woe to the one who says to the one forming him,
      ‘What are you making?’
      or ‘Your work has no human hands?’!
      Woe to the one who says to his father,
      ‘What are you begetting?’
      or to a woman, ‘To what are you giving birth?’!”
      his is what the Lord says,
      the Creator of the signs:
      “Question me about my children?
      Or give me orders about the work of my hands?
      This metaphor of the clay and the potter recurs a few times in the Bible. Basically, it means that it is futile to question or reason about the works of God because we can't possible know the purpose. And any attempt to rationalize our logic about God's reason is equally dubious. Now, this is very important: it is futile but not wrong. "Futile" means there is no satisfactory end. If you keep asking, you will not find an absolute answer. You will only find and dwell on the same circular conclusions that other humans have arrived at for millennia. Nonetheless, you might find purpose in the process of questioning.

      Connecting back to the topic, I think each person finds purpose in their own way. The "finding" is the most important part. They do so by asking questions. Their questions might be inspired (or manipulated) but their context and upbringing. Ultimately, those questions may lead nowhere. So what? Humans have been doing it for millennia. Plato and Aristotle did it. So did the apostles and Thomas Aquinas and every Pope since Peter. Also, Descartes and Hegel, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, and Camus. And probably Charlemagne, Napoleon, Newton, Marx, Freud, and Darwin too.
      I am sure about illusion. I am not so sure about reality.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Amedee View Post
      Hi snoop ,I know that you are a gnostic and I respect that and to be honest I have read many of your statements and I like the way you defend your point of view in any arguments ,but to me it's the simple things and the obvious aswell that makes me believe in God I will get back to that ,I don't want people to impose their beliefs on me so on what grounds should I permit myself to do it,Islam never forces you to become a Moslem there is no verse in the Quran meaning that .it's your choice like any other religion its you who decides ,when I was around sixteen I woke up one morning and I told my father that I'm a gnostic now and that I didn't believe in God anymore,he was gentle with me he wasn't shocked he acted normal and he asked me to write a paper and state the reasons for not believing in God anymore and to presented to him in a week time ?..sorry I have to go gun shots near my house write later God willing!
      If this is how you truly treat your religion and act (which I'm inclined to believe, I know plenty of religious people who are just the same), then I respect that you choose to believe what you do. It's a good thing that you have something positive that guides you, gives you hope, allows you to enjoy your life, influences you to do good things, brings you and your family together, and that you are able to understand and respect others too. At least it's a good thing in my opinion, anyway.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sakki View Post
      First of all, we aren't talking about only "me" i only shared my experience and my beliefs, so tell us more about you and your point of view...
      That is complicated.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sakki View Post
      As you said "my personal incredulity" ,it is really hard to believe that the world existed just by it's own ,
      Even if it did not that does not conclude any specificality on what we can deduce. It is quite possible that a magical dragon created the universe. There is as much evidence of that as there is any other deity or superbeing.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sakki View Post
      from where did it start from a black hole ?...
      Possibly a white hole, especially if you consider what we are learning of string theory.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sakki View Post
      after that the earth was formed but from where did animals and plants just showed up ?...
      There is no theory that says that they did. Are you creating strawmen?
      Quote Originally Posted by Sakki View Post
      and more importantly why does animals have such different varieties?
      This has been explained by evolution. I pose the question of why they have such similarities. Why do animals have such similarities with one another. Our biological systems are all very similar, even in humans. Humans in the womb even have tails. Some are born with them.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sakki View Post
      Why no one look like the other ...
      This is a matter of perception. They appear that they do not look like one another because we have only been exposed to earthly creatures adapted to this environment. An extraterrestrial might look at all of the creatures of the earth and say "Those are all carbon based organisms. They all look the same." Again, this is explained by evolution.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sakki View Post
      and also there are even some of them who just is born from an egg
      Also explained by evolution.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sakki View Post
      how did we appear and why only us ... so it must be weird.
      What do you mean by "why only us"? You are actually the one who is making that claim. I don't see that there is "only us" or that we "appeared".
      Quote Originally Posted by Sakki View Post
      Yes i can choose what to believe , but in specific mesures...for example we aren't talking about fruits of something physical, be cause if you said that you are a dinosaur, it is something that i can slove with my brain , you look like me , you talk like me and you eat like me.... well i'm not that ignorant to distinguish something with my brain....
      So you believe whatever is supported by physical evidence, but if no physical evidence is shown to support a hypothesis you choose to believe it anyway? I don't understand.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sakki View Post
      but when we meet just like that and then we hang on then you tell me that you work as a architect,after a while i meet anoyher person that happen to know you and tell me that you work as a business man, Here i can choose what to believe because i can't use my brain since i don't have enough informations about the two of you....
      I would believe that the person claimed to be an architect but that I have no proof of this. No matter what this is all you know. I am claiming to be an architect. Do you believe me? Why or why not? Do you accept the fact that after you choose to believe that I am or am not an architect that you could be wrong?
      Quote Originally Posted by Sakki View Post
      and this is similar to what to believe in religion you only have physical informations but contradicted spiritual informations which one will you believe? Or will you stay as a natural observer ?
      I believe only what I can possibly know for sure, that religious ideas have been presented to me. To assume that I can know anything concretely about them would be egotistical and foolish.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sakki View Post
      I know because it's the only religion that have such a god,that satisfy my beliefs and my logic of thinking ,and the fact that i choosed islam is because it suits me and it doesn't mean that you should too you are free and i hate to criticise other religions because i have my own reasons but it will just make people sad somehow to hear me talking in a critical way so i'll pass this part of criticism...
      So, if I made something up that satisfied your beliefs and logic of thinking could you simply choose to believe what I made up as absolute proof?
      Quote Originally Posted by Sakki View Post
      No it isn't like that it is more like a hook up for the evilness, well there are many bad people if it was like " you will go to hell. " who know how hell look like and it could be not that bad , but if it is described what bad people will get then it's more scary and make you take another look about what you want to do....
      "If you don't believe THIS bad things will happen to you." This is still the fallacy of argument from the club. The possibility of something bad happening to me is not evidence that any particular idea is correct. If someone tells me that I need to jump off a cliff because if I don't I will die that does not grant weight to the idea that if I don't jump off a cliff I will die.
      If someone told me that I needed to sell all of my stocks because if I don't they could plummet that is not evidence that they are, in fact, going to plummet.
      If someone tells me that I will definitely get hit by a car if I leave the house that does not mean that the person is right.
      Last edited by sloth; 03-31-2016 at 02:39 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by JoshMcNaught View Post
      I believe that they brought out the Big bang theory because it seems like a logical explanation for our existence.
      The Big Bang theory does is not meant to explain our existence, only the origin of our universe.
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      Quote Originally Posted by sloth View Post
      The Big Bang theory does is not meant to explain our existence, only the origin of our universe.
      Still, they still use it as an logical explanation to try and prove that god does not exist, I don't believe in the theory at all, I believe god created everything.
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      Quote Originally Posted by sloth View Post
      The Big Bang theory does is not meant to explain our existence, only the origin of our universe.
      This is somewhat inaccurate. The big bang only describes what happened as far back as we can go just after the universe came into existence, and everything that has happened since. It makes no statement about the origin of the universe itself and whether it was created, it has somehow eternally/infinitely existed, or anything like that. To do so with our current understanding of the universe would mean that we are attempting to describe something outside the universe (as of right now, we cannot definitely say that the universe is capable of creating itself), which we cannot do from within the universe. It's the same thing for the theory of evolution. As I stated in my last post (think it was the last one anyway), evolution itself is a fact; we observe it. Facts are merely observations without explanations for why they are so. It is simply a recognition that something is. For example, if it is sunny outside on June 1st 2016, and I say "on June 1st 2016, it was sunny outside", I am stating a fact. The proof is that we all observed it being that way. The Theory of Evolution attempts to describe the mechanisms by which it occurs. The Theory of Evolution is independent from the idea of abiogenesis, which is life arising from non-living matter. So, the fact that we can't explain how abiogenesis would work and that we haven't observed it happening says nothing about the theory of evolution, it does not disprove it in the least. As of right now, abiogenesis is not falsifiable, so any claims that it is what happened or that it is impossible for it to happen are not valid. It is outside the current realm of science, and any claims that can't be falsified, tested under controlled conditions, and are able to have an outcome reproduced consistently are unscientific.

      Now, I know I went off on a tangent there, but the way that relates to the Big Bang Theory is that claiming it attempts to describe the origin of the universe is analogous to saying that the Theory of Evolution attempts to describe the origin of life. It doesn't, and currently cannot. It is not currently a scientific concern, because it can't be subjected to the scientific method. Therefore, any claim that the Big Bang Theory is false and could not possibly be true, because it fails in its attempt to explain the origin of the universe is fallacious from the get go due to a fundamental misunderstanding about what the Big Bang Theory even states. The person making the claim is either mistaken, or purposefully strawmanning the Big Bang Theory in order to deceive others for some sort of personal gain or agenda. I don't mean to split hairs or make such a big deal out of it, but it's a very important nuance that many people are mistaken about, and its historically led to huge wastes of time over a simple misunderstanding or flat out lie.

      edit:
      Quote Originally Posted by JoshMcNaught View Post
      Still, they still use it as an logical explanation to try and prove that god does not exist, I don't believe in the theory at all, I believe god created everything.
      To be honest, you're completely right. They can't use it to disprove God's existence. The theory is and was never meant to, but people try and use it that way. It's just as wrong to use the fact that the big bang theory is wrong or that evolution is wrong in order to try and prove that God does exist. This is a major gripe I have with a lot of atheist/secular individuals that misunderstand science or misrepresent it purposefully to either hate on people, or as an argument for an opinion of theirs is right. They are almost more annoying to me, because they claim to be scientific or hold scientific ideals, and they do no such thing. At least people that believe in God do what people that believe in God for guidance do... believe in God. You can't support scientific views if you don't abide by the scientific method or misrepresent what science is saying, so your own belief system self-defeating from the get go.
      Last edited by snoop; 03-31-2016 at 03:19 PM.
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      People already knew that this would be a way to argue against the belief off god, anyone could see it. Just because something is not physically there does not mean it's not real. They just want something to believe in really and the big bang is the only logical thing they can grasp onto.

      I really hate the phrase "seeing is believing" it's very misleading, but after all they refuse to believe in god even though the big bang is ONLY a theory itself.

      Let's think logical for a second here, we don't understand how the universe came to be, right? So therefore if somehing was created that means someone or somehing must of created it? God pehaps
      Last edited by Habba; 03-31-2016 at 03:36 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by JoshMcNaught View Post
      People already knew that this would be a way to argue against the belief off god, anyone could see it. Just because something is not physically there does not mean it's not real. They just want something to believe in really and the big bang is the only logical thing they can grasp onto.
      Well, the same can be said about believing in God. The reason these arguments go on ad nauseam is typically because the person on the opposite side or on both sides are unable to recognize that they are using arguments that defeat their own beliefs. What people that believe in God say about why he has to exist or how someone has to prove he doesn't exist applies to them and they are literally doing/not doing the exact same thing they say people do/don't do/fail to do/have to do. Alternatively, so do people that say that God does not and cannot exist. Neither side is capable of recognizing how ironic and self-defeating their claims and arguments are, more often than not.

      Perhaps the saddest thing in both cases is that people have officially stopped their line of inquiry altogether and willfully close-minded. They are willing to just accept answers that make them more comfortable and gives them a false sense of security and superiority (be it morally or intellectually), or allows them some form of personal gain as a result. Their desire to learn, understand, and explore completely fades, and the dogma they tout becomes integral to their indentity, which in my opinion is one of the most significant contributions to close-mindedness and denial there is. Somebody who identifies as a christian/jew/muslim or a scientist/intellectual/whatever is more likely to defend their stance and ignore evidence when the consequences can affect people other than just them, because for them to be wrong (even just admitting the possibility) means that they are not the person they have believed they were and prided themselves in being for essentially their entire lives. If God isn't real, then I may not be special at all and when I die, I might completely stop existing. If my scientific beliefs aren't true, science cannot adequately explain things that I have been sure of my whole life and my life/experiences are all for nothing or wrong. If I humans don't have intrinsic value outside their own minds, (somehow?) life doesn't have a point at all and that is disturbing to me... etc.

      These realizations are shocking and frightening to people, and in order to prevent these types of realizations from ever happening, they deny any possibility that they can be wrong whatsoever. They start to make things up that always wind up confirming after-the-fact that their beliefs are right. Suddenly we have people saying that God can do anything because he's God, there doesn't need to be an explanation. Suddenly we have people believing that science is equivalent to truth and is infallible, rather than being a quest for truth that is meant to eliminate as many variables as possible to make the quest objective as can be. People start using these beliefs to feel superior to and belittle others, to harass others, to manipulate others, to harm others, to silence others, and for personal gain. It's all terribly intellectually dishonest and in my eyes, a disservice to all humankind, including yourself.
      Last edited by snoop; 03-31-2016 at 04:01 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by JoshMcNaught View Post
      Still, they still use it as an logical explanation to try and prove that god does not exist, I don't believe in the theory at all, I believe god created everything.
      I'm not sure who "they" are, but they cannot prove that God does not exist, especially by describing the beginning of our universe.
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      Quote Originally Posted by JoshMcNaught View Post
      the big bang is ONLY a theory itself.
      So is the theory of gravity.
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      Quote Originally Posted by sloth View Post
      So is the theory of gravity.
      I don't believe in Gravity either, when something is heavier than air it forces itself to the ground, when something is lighter than air ie a ballon for example, it floats with the air.

      I also believe that the world is a flat surface, for that being water can't bend, water always finds it level.
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    22. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by JoshMcNaught View Post
      I don't believe in Gravity either, when something is heavier than air it forces itself to the ground, when something is lighter than air ie a ballon for example, it floats with the air.

      I also believe that the world is a flat surface, for that being water can't bend, water always finds it level.
      Please define "heavy" without the requirement for gravity.
      What form of locomotion does it use to "force" itself to the ground?
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      Quote Originally Posted by JoshMcNaught View Post
      I really hate the phrase "seeing is believing" it's very misleading, but after all they refuse to believe in god even though the big bang is ONLY a theory itself.

      Let's think logical for a second here, we don't understand how the universe came to be, right? So therefore if somehing was created that means someone or somehing must of created it? God pehaps
      I've already covered the theory in the regular sense of the word is different than a scientific theory. That isn't a valid argument. Scientific theories are the highest form of established ideas, even about scientific laws. Scientific laws are nothing more than facts, which as I've covered are merely observations. They don't need to be anything more than observed. Scientific theories cannot be scientific theories unless they are so well observed, tested, and have so much corroborating evidence that we are as sure as we can be at this moment in time that the theory is in fact true.

      About something creating the universe: it seems a natural assumption come up with that it was created by God, but it is by no means right. Not only is it not possible to prove (or disprove, making it an impossible for it to be judged true... or false), but it is not sufficient in explaining the origin of the universe to its fullest. In order for the universe to originate, God must create it. However, how, when, where did God originate? Down to its lowest level, it does not sufficiently explain the inception of the universe, and nor is it able to be proven. It's an illogical assumption to make and base one's lifestyle and actions on. I already established the the Big Bang Theory does not establish how the universe originated and doesn't attempt to, so the inability to answer the question does not discredit the Big Bang Theory. Neither does the inability to explain the origin of the universe prove it was created or even suggest that it was created by God. We have no way of knowing, period.
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      Quote Originally Posted by JoshMcNaught View Post
      I don't believe in Gravity either, when something is heavier than air it forces itself to the ground, when something is lighter than air ie a ballon for example, it floats with the air.

      I also believe that the world is a flat surface, for that being water can't bend, water always finds it level.
      You need to provide evidence that the earth is flat, and we have loads of empirical data that confirm it's round. Heaviness and weight have to have some force or mechanism for existing, please explain how something is heavier than something else and why it would fall down and not up, left, or right. Explain how we can circumnavigate the globe without ever being able to fall off or meet the edges of the flat disc that our planet would be (please, a conspiracy theory is not a valid explanation), or why other planetary and celestial bodies in our solar system are globes rather than flat discs. Explain the Coriolis Effect. Explain how the ice caps don't melt if the disc does not orbit the sun, but simply move in a circle adjacent to it for no apparent reason. Explain how the atmospheric scattering of light is what allows the poles to remain so cold--if the earth were not a globe and it did not rotate while orbiting the sun, how that atmospheric scattering even occurs.

      Also, what do you mean water can't bend? Are you saying it can't fill a volume in any shape? What about a U shaped prism completely filled with water? The water is not "level" in the sense you are talking about. What about water in a balloon? What about putting water in a centrifuge and observing that the water is "bent" like you say it can't be due to centrifugal force? If water can't be anything but level (ignoring smaller disturbances like waves), what about the tides? How can a place like the Bay of Fundy exist, where the tidal range is 55 feet (meaning every day and night, the water level raises and lowers 55 feet)?

      edit: actually, I'm (well, we) are starting to hijack this thread. If you want to continue this Josh, make a flat earth thread (well, I might even myself). I'd like to debate it, I'm interested in your answers, but it's not fair to Sakki to do it here.
      Last edited by snoop; 03-31-2016 at 04:26 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by JoshMcNaught View Post
      we don't understand how the universe came to be, right? So therefore if somehing was created that means someone or somehing must of created it? God pehaps
      You're saying that since we don't understand how the universe came to be it must be God? Why would you assume that it would be God? What's wrong with a magical unicorn? Magical unicorns can create universes using fairy magic.
      Furthermore, why did you assume that it was created at all? That is begging the question.

      This is another classic logical fallacy. You don't know where the universe came from so you just simply pick something and go with it. This is the same as just making things up.
      I don't know who painted this picture. A picture must have been painted by someone. Therefore Bob painted it. Well, how do you know it was Bob? Maybe Tony painted it.
      I don't know who's car this. It must belong to someone. Therefore it must be Bob's car.

      The fact that the rest of us don't know where the universe came from doesn't automatically mean that you do.
      Last edited by sloth; 03-31-2016 at 05:22 PM.
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