Thread: Women’s right to chose

Originally posted by kimpossible
Aha! Great post, DT!

Finally, proof that christians are morons. The implication is: \"if you think about it, it doesn't make sense. I recommend you stop thinking\".

I’m not interested in your personal attacks. As you may have noticed if you were in fact awake I don’t reply to your insulting statements any more and will not again. Like I said previously I have read scientifically what a leading world renounced psychologist has written as the leading theory of a structurally compositional consciousness. I don’t intend on adding to you childish arguments by explaining the theory for one reason. You don’t know what it is and it will bug you until you find the information for yourself. You may disagree, but go ahead ask yourself, how does the consciousness work and you’ll no doubt come up with an “mmmmm I just do not know”
Ps Your sloppily copied signature shows your intellect for sure.

Oooooh. The ultimate posting forum burn...bash their sig.

And...just a question. What is a 'leading world renounced psychologist'? Doesn't really sound like a good title if you ask me.

Originally posted by bradybaker
Oooooh. The ultimate posting forum burn...bash their sig.

And...just a question. What is a 'leading world renounced psychologist'? Doesn't really sound like a good title if you ask me.

A 'leading world renounced psychologist' you’ll have to red quite a few books I guess

Originally posted by dreamtamer007
A 'leading world renounced psychologist' you’ll have to red quite a few books I guess

I'm pretty sure the word you're looking for is "renowned".

[edit] damn you brady! beat me[/edit]

A 'leading world renounced psychologist' you’ll have to red quite a few books I guess [/b]

Ahhhh. "I renounce my faith". "The psychologist is well renowned". A "world renounced psychologist" would be one that the world has turned its back on. But that aside, I'm assuming you meant renowned.

Dr Phil (the dude from oprah) is a "world renowned psychologist", should we get our views on conciousness from him? You cant just say "I read a book" and have us accept that you're now an expert on the issue.

Is your book written by a psychologist with relavent (specific) training for this field? Is it a book that lots of psychologists agree with, or is it just some quack? What are the main arguments, and what is the evidence for these you find compelling?

Actually you don't have to sum up the whole book, you just have to provide the arguments you found so compelling for a foetus having conciousness. Remember, we're arguing about abortion here.

That last paragraph had the most important question.

-spoon

Originally posted by spoon
[edit] damn you brady! beat me[/edit]

A 'leading world renounced psychologist' you’ll have to red quite a few books I guess

Ahhhh. \"I renounce my faith\". \"The psychologist is well renowned\". A \"world renounced psychologist\" would be one that the world has turned its back on. But that aside, I'm assuming you meant renowned.

Dr Phil (the dude from oprah) is a \"world renowned psychologist\", should we get our views on conciousness from him? You cant just say \"I read a book\" and have us accept that you're now an expert on the issue.

Is your book written by a psychologist with relavent (specific) training for this field? Is it a book that lots of psychologists agree with, or is it just some quack? What are the main arguments, and what is the evidence for these you find compelling?

Actually you don't have to sum up the whole book, you just have to provide the arguments you found so compelling for a foetus having conciousness. Remember, we're arguing about abortion here.

That last paragraph had the most important question.

-spoon[/b]

Ok. Stephen LaBerge I think quoted about him. And so what, spelling is not my strong point. Are you so versed in all the arts? I doubt it
The world-renowned psychologist is German and he gives the best explanation of how the mind functions according to others. Anyway you would have to pay me for that info. Ids rather leave you all guessing since you get on my nerves. Lol

Originally posted by Awaken4e1+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Awaken4e1)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-kimpossible

Sure. It's against the law to kill a human.

It is NOT against the law to freeze off a mole, now is it?

A lump of cells dividing in the womb is no different than a mole growing on the skin. It's just a bunch of cells dividing and growing.

If guys carried the fetus, this wouldn't even be a discussion-point. The churches would have ruled thousands of years ago that of COURSE it was his right to choose!

I guess that mole could have grown up to be President one day?


These so-called (lumps of cells) are people whom God knows!

The Rev.[/b]

Good Point

And so what, spelling is not my strong point. Are you so versed in all the arts? I doubt it[/b]

Spelling is not an art. Basic knowledge of the english language is just that. Basic knowledge.

The world-renowned psychologist is German and he gives the best explanation of how the mind functions according to others. Anyway you would have to pay me for that info. Ids rather leave you all guessing since you get on my nerves. Lol[/b]

Ok, since you wont even tell me who your source is (way to support an argument!), there's not much I can say about this psychologist. But this is all besides the point anyway.

I told you the most important part of my last post beforehand, and you still ignored it. Best-psychologist-ever-guy, whomever he may be, might have a fancy-dancy theory of conciousness. I'm not interested in that. I want to know the arguments he put foward, or how you apply his theories, as to how a foetus lacking higher brain functions (exhibited by brainwave patterns emerging in the 24/26th week) can be said to have conciousness.

again, the preceding paragraph would be the important part

And for the record this:

"I guess that mole could have grown up to be President one day? These so-called (lumps of cells) are people whom God knows!"

Is not a good point. Because it just ignores the fact that god is aborting people he already knows. It only serves to highlight that us terminating a pregnancy is less immoral than when god does it. As far as we're concerned its a lump of cells lacking a conciousness. God, being transcendant and whatnot, already intimately knows all of the details of the possible life of the foetus. Then he aborts 30% of them.

So what is it, is god performing an immoral act by "murdering" all these babies, or is abortion not as much of a moral issue as you make out.

-spoon

Originally posted by spoon

And so what, spelling is not my strong point. Are you so versed in all the arts? I doubt it

Spelling is not an art. Basic knowledge of the english language is just that. Basic knowledge.

The world-renowned psychologist is German and he gives the best explanation of how the mind functions according to others. Anyway you would have to pay me for that info. Ids rather leave you all guessing since you get on my nerves. Lol[/b]

Ok, since you wont even tell me who your source is (way to support an argument!), there's not much I can say about this psychologist. But this is all besides the point anyway.

I told you the most important part of my last post beforehand, and you still ignored it. Best-psychologist-ever-guy, whomever he may be, might have a fancy-dancy theory of conciousness. I'm not interested in that. I want to know the arguments he put foward, or how you apply his theories, as to how a foetus lacking higher brain functions (exhibited by brainwave patterns emerging in the 24/26th week) can be said to have conciousness.

again, the preceding paragraph would be the important part

And for the record this:

\"I guess that mole could have grown up to be President one day? These so-called (lumps of cells) are people whom God knows!\"

Is not a good point. Because it just ignores the fact that god is aborting people he already knows. It only serves to highlight that us terminating a pregnancy is less immoral than when god does it. As far as we're concerned its a lump of cells lacking a conciousness. God, being transcendant and whatnot, already intimately knows all of the details of the possible life of the foetus. Then he aborts 30% of them.

So what is it, is god performing an immoral act by \"murdering\" all these babies, or is abortion not as much of a moral issue as you make out.

-spoon[/b]

The explanation I have found is that God is not responsible for miscarriages and other causes for suffering.

Originally posted by Genjyo
The explanation I have found is that God is not responsible for miscarriages and other causes for suffering.

Funny how he's responsible for all the good things but none of the bad.

Natural miscarriages are obviously part of 'God's devine plan', therefore he is responsible for them.

Originally posted by Genjyo
The explanation I have found is that God is not responsible for miscarriages and other causes for suffering.

If god is not responsible for miscarriages/etc than the implication is that god does not want them to happen. I know this might not hold true for a non-christian interpretation of god, but thats the context here. So.. if the christian god does not want this to happen, why does it? Does he just not care? If he doesn't care about miscarriages (auto-abortion) why should we care about manual-abortion? Why should it be a moral issue?

-spoon

Originally posted by bradybaker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bradybaker)</div>

Funny how he's responsible for all the good things but none of the bad.

Natural miscarriages are obviously part of 'God's devine plan', therefore he is responsible for them.[/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-spoon
If god is not responsible for miscarriages/etc than the implication is that god does not want them to happen. I know this might not hold true for a non-christian interpretation of god, but thats the context here. So.. if the christian god does not want this to happen, why does it? Does he just not care? If he doesn't care about miscarriages (auto-abortion) why should we care about manual-abortion? Why should it be a moral issue?

-spoon

These are all truly honest observations, I had them myself too. I will do my best to provide answers for my reasoning. Natural miscarriages, sickness, human death etc are a result of human Sin. Since then, humankind has been imperfect and is not protected from catastrophe and bad decisions. Our bodies are going through this decay which is observable throughout all the universe. Everything is deteriorating. There is one truth to this and that is that God does permits it. brb

Originally posted by Genjyo

These are all truly honest observations, I had them myself too. I will do my best to provide answers for my reasoning. Natural miscarriages, sickness, human death etc are a result of human Sin. Since then, humankind has been imperfect and is not protected from catastrophe and bad decisions. Our bodies are going through this decay which is observable throughout all the universe. Everything is deteriorating. There is one truth to this and that is that God does permits it. brb

This is actually true. When a great King said to Jesus. "Don't you understand, I have the power to free you or have you crucified" Jesus said "You only have the power because god gave it to you” Jesus knew all along how the trial would end up. Only he had the power to make things change, but he choose to please the father by sacrificing himself so that you and me might be saved. Jesus also said that if a seed does not die and return to the ground it will not spread into life. We should not question why god does what he does. Believe me, I have struggled with the same reasoning that you have. But in the struggles we are lost. We start to see when we truly turn it all over to him. As the song says, (Just as I am I come to you). I have been with reason and the scripture does say” lets reason together” but it also says, "Lean not to your own understanding” I will be dieing soon. Oh yea the signs are there. I'm a sick older person with many trips to the hospital and a machine that keep me alive. You want the truth. I hurt every day and want it to end. It gets that bad. I have no job or person that I have to prove myself to and this small part of my life at DV is about all I’ve had for the last year. Soon I will be goon. I tell you all this sincerely, I think with all that I am that there is someone out there that will read this and give a second chance to the words of Jesus. Read his words. The words he spoke. Even if just to pick them apart and show yourself how smart you really are. But read them. Hear them. The world is in trouble. See what He has to say about it. Like the Indian that attribute wisdom as the owl. Find out what wisdom is and be close
If we never speak again then I say this, Its Been Real Cherish your youth but don’t waste it. Know who you are. We are nothing but vassals. You can only serve one master. Look around you see the lost vassals and then see that they serve. And old English fellow like a dad to me said find your place in the schema off things

Originally posted by dreamtamer007
We start to see when we truly turn it all over to him.

So I'm starting this cult...it turns out that you really only start to see when you turn it over to me. Wanna come to a meeting? No obligations, I promise.

If a second trimester fetus does not have consciousness, and a soul is or at least has consciousness, then how can a second trimester fetus have a soul?

Really, I respect that you would be interested in one of us answering a question from a serious standpoint. So after reading as many post as I can within a reasonable time I respectfully say that the problem in each case is the questions including the present one are loaded with assumptions. In this instance you assume that consciousness implies a soul. I know you will probably have a field day with that statement but instead I think you should go back to practicing whatever meditation some of the members are so hip about. Countless times we are told you just shouldn’t think too much wile meditating. “Let it go, let it just flow” they say. Countless phrases that imply you want to have consciousness by not thinking too much. I’ve read what consciousness consists of theoretically according to psychologist and the theories aren’t close to being a soul. Why would a lot of meditation methods not want to be bothering with thought if your thinking was all there is. So the question is loaded. You were right to say “a soul at least has consciousness” not IS consciousness. I'll pray for you.[/b]

Let's go over this one more time... I don't believe in souls. YOU DO!!! Thank you for admitting that my question was serious. So what is your answer to it? Nobody has explained to me how a second trimester fetus is supposed to have a soul if a soul has consciousness (as YOU just said) and a second trimester fetus does not. I know you understand the question. Stop going off on bizarre tangents and answer a straightforward question for once. You religious nuts are so quick to go around preaching your asses off as though you actually want people to understand your views, but as soon as people question what on Earth you are talking about, you start hiding under tables and throwing dishes.

What is the answer to my question?

That's precisely why I think consciousness does not define a soul. A person who is born with a serious mental defect is still a soul, also applies to someone who later lost consciousness later in life. The fact that they are human means that they are living souls. That is the biblical perspective.

1 Corinthians 15:45 So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul..

Originally posted by Genjyo
Natural miscarriages, sickness, human death etc are a result of human Sin.

Wait, didn't Jesus die for all of our sins? Including original sin?

Originally posted by bradybaker

Wait, didn't Jesus die for all of our sins? Including original sin?

Yes, while he came here to Earth he showed what promises God had in store for mankind.

Luke
7:11
Soon afterward Jesus went with his disciples to the village of Nain, with a great crowd following him.
7:12
A funeral procession was coming out as he approached the village gate. The boy who had died was the only son of a widow, and many mourners from the village were with her.
7:13
When the Lord saw her, his heart overflowed with compassion. "Don't cry!" he said.
7:14
Then he walked over to the coffin and touched it, and the bearers stopped. "Young man,"
7:15
Then the dead boy sat up and began to talk to those around him! And Jesus gave him back to his mother.
7:16
Great fear swept the crowd, and they praised God, saying, "A mighty prophet has risen among us," and "We have seen the hand of God at work today."

Even though the aftershocks of sin are still visible, Christ himself has the power to refresh and renew. This points to his Second Coming.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life."

I don't see abortion as a sin because I don't see death as a sin. [/i]Especially for someone who has absolutely no attachment to his life on earth. Instead of death you could think of at as freeing their soul to continue on the path of reincarnation. If you belive that conciousness doesn't stop at death than it is easy to "kill" a baby that has no attachment to this earth.

What happens to them after they die? They haven't comitted any sins. Do they go to hell?

If you also believe that a soul chooses the life it would like to experience before it enters the physical body, than perhaps there is a reason behind the souls decision. A learning opportunity.

Yoda- "Do not mourn for those who become one with the living force." Something of that nature.

This argument is purely for people who have similar views on spirits. It would be interesting to see other arguments against it though.

Originally posted by Genjyo

The explanation I have found is that God is not responsible for miscarriages and other causes for suffering.

I think the uterus fairy has a hand in causing them. (She also leaves surprises if you put your postmenstrual ovum under your pillow.)

Originally posted by InTheMoment

I think the uterus fairy has a hand in causing them. (She also leaves surprises if you put your postmenstrual ovum under your pillow.)

The menopause fairy is somehow associated with all this!

Originally posted by dreamtamer007
'leading world renounced psychologist'