Thread: Intelligent Design Vs. Time Plus Chance

Im not saying it's a very high chance it may not happen, I'm saying that it's "Impossible" to happen without the assistance of a designer.[/b]

Say if i role with a fair dice the number 6 and thousand times. Now somebody might come pass and say that impossible with out some mysterious force guiding you. It is improbable however it not impossible it just chance. All of us being born and finding our way to becoming a member of this forum is improbable however that doesnt mean their is a magical man guiding us. It just a argument for ignorance. Roling a thousand 6 is unlikely however it is not impossible and it doesnt need a person behind it just good luck.

Maybe I cannot prove it's impossible but at the same time no one can prove that it is possible. So I guess you do have a point because this argument is a never ending circle.

"I really don't understand how you could have taken offense to what I said unless you misinterpreted my intent"

Originally Posted by bradybaker

It's just as easy for me to get all high and mighty and say I truly feel sorry for those people that are deluded and impressionable enough to actually believe that there's more to reality than the physical.

It's an ignorant, condescending thing to say.

Besides, some people choose beliefs based on logic analysis of the data in front of them, not what makes them feel good. We have plain ol' fashioned masturbation for that.

Sorry if I misinterpreted.[/b]

Regardless of my stance or your stance, You could also conclude that because Nina believes this. Maybe her statement was made out of thought and feeling. Not that of an ignorance or condescending manner.

Originally Posted by Howetzer

"I really don't understand how you could have taken offense to what I said unless you misinterpreted my intent"
Regardless of my stance or your stance, You could also conclude that because Nina believes this. Maybe her statement was made out of thought and feeling. Not that of an ignorance or condescending manner.
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Yes, Howie you are right. I apologize Bradybaker, if what I said offended you. I didn't mean it like, I feel sorry for those who believe we are only our bodies because they are ignorant. But rather, I feel sorry for them because...and this is just making an assumption (which is usually an ignorant thing to do but anyway)...I would think that the world would be alot lonier place for them. I mean, I believe that all people are connected...and I do think that we have purpose. To me it's sad to think that some people think they are so alone in this world, and that there is no purpose for them...or that there is no greater design...nothing watching over them...nothing connecting them to any sort of collective consciousness...no source. To me, that would seem like a very lonely place to be, and a lonely life to have. Which is why I said that I felt sorry for them. Again, though, I apologize if I am making any sort of incorrect assumptions...I just wanted to make clear what I said before since I honestly meant no offense what so ever.

I am so sick and tired of these arguments, and it seems that I am the only one that can prove what he believes.
Who else here can say that?

I'm so sick of hearing the same quotes from creationists, and the same quotes from evolutionists, and neither side is open to anything.
What's the point of discussing something if you can't hear what the other person is saying? And do you think you have a unique perspective? You're just noise among the static.

Challenge me.

-angry sloth

here here

I believe that this whole argument can be related to native american tribe's beliefs
god is to life as the great eagle spirit is to wind
What I'm saying is that the native americans believed that wind was caused by a great eagle spirit flapping its wings. However, this is now known to be false, because we know that wind is caused by high and low pressure differences in the atmosphere. The native americans couldnt have know the real cause of wind, there belief was just a way for them to explain the the un-explained. I believe the same thing will happen with creationism, before darwin and friends, we didnt know how life came about, so a lot of us adopted creationism, but this will be proven wrong eventually, just like the eagle spirit was. My hope is that is it sooner rather than later

Man you must be mental, talking about Eagle Spirits, Wind, Darwin and his posse' That analogy you gave doesn't even fit the mold. This is much deeper than wind blowing from he west. You can't even put Creation and Wind blowing in the same category.

Blah...

Originally Posted by sloth

I am so sick and tired of these arguments, and it seems that I am the only one that can prove what he believes.
Who else here can say that?

I'm so sick of hearing the same quotes from creationists, and the same quotes from evolutionists, and neither side is open to anything.
What's the point of discussing something if you can't hear what the other person is saying? And do you think you have a unique perspective? You're just noise among the static.

Challenge me.

-angry sloth
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No, I am the only one who can prove what he believes. You're just noise. Take that!

You have contributed absolutely nothing to this discussion. Do you understand the specific concepts we are talking about? You have yet to prove you do.

Tell me how what I said was off target, if you think you can.

Everything is noise.

*sigh*...I certainly won't be posting in this forum again...

Thanks guys. You've all been great.

*leaves*

Originally Posted by Aquanina

Yes, Howie you are right. I apologize Bradybaker, if what I said offended you. I didn't mean it like, I feel sorry for those who believe we are only our bodies because they are ignorant. But rather, I feel sorry for them because...and this is just making an assumption (which is usually an ignorant thing to do but anyway)...I would think that the world would be alot lonier place for them. I mean, I believe that all people are connected...and I do think that we have purpose. To me it's sad to think that some people think they are so alone in this world, and that there is no purpose for them...or that there is no greater design...nothing watching over them...nothing connecting them to any sort of collective consciousness...no source. To me, that would seem like a very lonely place to be, and a lonely life to have. Which is why I said that I felt sorry for them. Again, though, I apologize if I am making any sort of incorrect assumptions...I just wanted to make clear what I said before since I honestly meant no offense what so ever.
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First of all, let me assure you that I don't find the world to be a lonely, disconnected place. I've yet to meet a materialistic athiest who does. If anything, I find life more special, more immediate and more fulfilling compared to someone who's just waiting to go to a better place. When you really believe that every moment of existence could actually be your last, it becomes that much more significant.

Anyways, I think I overreacted to your statement. And I apologize for that. I've heard it too many times, most people tend to mean it condescendingly.

Originally Posted by Aquanina

*sigh*...I certainly won't be posting in this forum again...

Thanks guys. You've all been great.

*leaves*
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I cannot blame her.

This is the unquestioned free space presence of the unqualified absolute. an extension of this concept connotes the universal force-space potential inherent in the functional totality of the unqualified absolute, while the intension of this concept implied the supposition of a supposed cosmic reality, which emanates eternitywise from the never-beginning, never-ending, never-moving, isle of conception of infinity.

This represents the first basic changes in space potency and my be one of the nether functions of the unqualified absolute.

One could suppose energy partakes of the nature of organization.

Suppose the primordial passive and potential force becomes active in response to the space presence, energy and force applied to phenomenal motion-action, could be a cause of creation.

Originally Posted by taltho

This is the unquestioned free space presence of the unqualified absolute. an extension of this concept connotes the universal force-space potential inherent in the functional totality of the unqualified absolute, while the intension of this concept implied the supposition of a supposed cosmic reality, which emanates eternitywise from the never-beginning, never-ending, never-moving, isle of conception of infinity.

This represents the first basic changes in space potency and my be one of the nether functions of the unqualified absolute.

One could suppose energy partakes of the nature of organization.

Suppose the primordial passive and potential force becomes active in response to the space presence, energy and force applied to phenomenal motion-action, could be a cause of creation.
[/b]

If only you knew how to use all those big words...

^^^WTF can't argue with that (RE: Post before last, somebody was faster than me)

Originally Posted by Ne

Man you must be mental, talking about Eagle Spirits, Wind, Darwin and his posse' That analogy you gave doesn't even fit the mold. This is much deeper than wind blowing from he west. You can't even put Creation and Wind blowing in the same category.
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The analogy is perfect.

Originally Posted by Ne

First of all, let me assure you that I don't find the world to be a lonely, disconnected place. I've yet to meet a materialistic athiest who does. If anything, I find life more special, more immediate and more fulfilling compared to someone who's just waiting to go to a better place. When you really believe that every moment of existence could actually be your last, it becomes that much more significant.
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I concur. I would think that life is much more precious while you're living it if you don't think that you are going to spend eternity in some paradise somewhere, which I assume if you believe in a creator that is what you think is going to happen. Why even bother with this BS then?

Originally Posted by Ne

I am so sick and tired of these arguments, and it seems that I am the only one that can prove what he believes.
-angry sloth
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Did I miss something? What is it that you can prove?

Originally Posted by Keeper

lets just think about this:

what are the odds of a gold statue forming anywhere in the universe, allowing for a billion billion years?

now, I know that this is probably a poor argument, but first you will have to tell me how we come about, set by step

actually, I think I will make a thread about that
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Sure thing, Keeps'. You know, this is actually pretty easy to answer because it's already happened! Let me break down the process.

• 1. Universe as we know it is created. Planets and starts drift and form and solar systems develop.
  
  2. One planet called "Earth" spawns replicating cells: "life".
  
  3. Over billions of years the cells grow and change and "evolve" into different species.
  
  4. One such species develops advanced "tools" and "technology". They are called "humans"
  
  5. Some humans mine and refine gold from "Earth". Some other human(s) then make this statue.

And that's how an entire golden statue can appear from nothing in five easy steps!

Originally Posted by Keeper

...I would think that the world would be alot lonier place for them. I mean, I believe that all people are connected...and I do think that we have purpose. To me it's sad to think that some people think they are so alone in this world, and that there is no purpose for them...or that there is no greater design...nothing watching over them...nothing connecting them to any sort of collective consciousness...no source. To me, that would seem like a very lonely place to be, and a lonely life to have.
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Even were that true it wouldn't matter. One shouldn't even give the slightest regard to which belief would make them feel better. I don't know about you, but I can't help but go with the ones that seem most true. If the world is that cold shell you describe, then that's what I'll call it.

Originally Posted by Keeper

eternitywise[/b]

Best adverb of 2007.

f only you knew how to use all those big words... rlp_smilie_178.gif[/b]

I know what I'm talking about, I just have a hard time explaining my self sometimes.

Originally Posted by Ne

Spoon you know exactly what I'm talking about I don't see why you're trying to act like it's such a complex question. Let me explain it a little more in detail, better yet put it this way. What are the chances of the Statue of Liberty being formed in it's exact same definition as it is within a timeline that consist of billions of years?

...

Im not saying it's a very high chance it may not happen, I'm saying that it's "Impossible" to happen without the assistance of a designer.[/b]

That is a completely different question, so no wonder my answer had nothing to do with it. Of course the statue of liberty (exactly as you'd define it now) cannot be generated naturally - I'm struggling to see the point of the question, as no-one was claiming that it could be.

Life is not a statue, and biological processes are not the same as chemical processes. As I've said many times now: things that are designed may have certain properties, but these certain properties do not necessarily require a designer. Unless you're saying certain properties of these objects you've used in your analogies do require design.

If that is the case, why not stop beating around the bush, and move this discussion away from completely irrelevant analogies (chemistry isn't the same as biology, and the biological processes under which organisms change are completely different to the processes by which chemicals change). So what is it about life that requires a designer? Please, if you use an analogy, use a biological one.

I asked this earlier, but nobody answered it...

What are the chances of that junk yard junk being blown up into the air and landing and forming God?

I couldnt give you figures
however
the chances of forming an onipotent being capable of creating a universe out of a scrap yard, is I'd say smaller than the chance of forming the universe.

Imran

Originally Posted by imran_p

I couldnt give you figures
however
the chances of forming an onipotent being capable of creating a universe out of a scrap yard, is I'd say smaller than the chance of forming the universe.

Imran
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That's exactly why I don't accept the argument that the universe is such a big deal that God must exist.

Originally Posted by spoon

That is a completely different question, so no wonder my answer had nothing to do with it. Of course the statue of liberty (exactly as you'd define it now) cannot be generated naturally - I'm struggling to see the point of the question, as no-one was claiming that it could be.

Life is not a statue, and biological processes are not the same as chemical processes. As I've said many times now: things that are designed may have certain properties, but these certain properties do not necessarily require a designer. Unless you're saying certain properties of these objects you've used in your analogies do require design.

If that is the case, why not stop beating around the bush, and move this discussion away from completely irrelevant analogies (chemistry isn't the same as biology, and the biological processes under which organisms change are completely different to the processes by which chemicals change). So what is it about life that requires a designer? Please, if you use an analogy, use a biological one.
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Sure. What about the Human Brain? Let's take a brief look of it's functions shall we? it simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. It takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. It holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time it keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

It's capable of processing more than a million messages a second. It weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant stuff. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. You need to be more appreciative instead trying to prove that it wasn't given to you by an intelligent designer. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information So you really truely inside "YOUR BRAIN" think that it just came by chance? Do you really think it was merely biological causes, perfectly forming the right tissue, blood flow, neurons, structure? The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people. I refuse to believe that it just happened. No offense but to think that is really ridiculous to say the least.

Originally Posted by spoon

I asked this earlier, but nobody answered it...
What are the chances of that junk yard junk being blown up into the air and landing and forming God?
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Think of how illogical that question is. That would mean something had to pre-exist to form God and that doesn't make sense. How can you form something that has already existed? If God had a cause to be formed then I guess the chances would be equivalent to the chances of life just forming out of nothing, however God doesn't have a beginning so this question is pretty much irrelevant