Thread: Intelligent Design Vs. Time Plus Chance

What are the chances of the Statue of Liberty being formed in it's exact same definition as it is within a timeline that consist of billions of years?[/b]

Well it improbable. However it not impossible ravity in it self doesnt tell you anything whether it true or false. Now all of us coming to this forum and typing exaculay what we have done is really improbable even being born is like four times the lottery. Now saying it is impossible because their is a very high chance it might not happen is wrong. Everything in the end of the day is as improbable as this.

Plus this is a argument for ignorance.

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

Well it improbable. However it not impossible ravity in it self doesnt tell you anything whether it true or false. Now all of us coming to this forum and typing exaculay what we have done is really improbable even being born is like four times the lottery. Now saying it is impossible because their is a very high chance it might not happen is wrong. Everything in the end of the day is as improbable as this.

Plus this is a argument for ignorance.
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Im not saying it's a very high chance it may not happen, I'm saying that it's "Impossible" to happen without the assistance of a designer.

I personally dsont think this argument could ever be won by a Creationest

you dont fight battles you cant win, because at the end of the day, it is just extremly improbable, not impossable. that is why I said mine was a poor argument

only if you can prove something is impossable can you win, that is why I generally dont like this argument, as it ends up prooving nothing

sorry, not helping

Im not saying it's a very high chance it may not happen, I'm saying that it's "Impossible" to happen without the assistance of a designer.[/b]

Say if i role with a fair dice the number 6 and thousand times. Now somebody might come pass and say that impossible with out some mysterious force guiding you. It is improbable however it not impossible it just chance. All of us being born and finding our way to becoming a member of this forum is improbable however that doesnt mean their is a magical man guiding us. It just a argument for ignorance. Roling a thousand 6 is unlikely however it is not impossible and it doesnt need a person behind it just good luck.

Maybe I cannot prove it's impossible but at the same time no one can prove that it is possible. So I guess you do have a point because this argument is a never ending circle.

I am so sick and tired of these arguments, and it seems that I am the only one that can prove what he believes.
Who else here can say that?

I'm so sick of hearing the same quotes from creationists, and the same quotes from evolutionists, and neither side is open to anything.
What's the point of discussing something if you can't hear what the other person is saying? And do you think you have a unique perspective? You're just noise among the static.

Challenge me.

-angry sloth

Originally Posted by sloth

I am so sick and tired of these arguments, and it seems that I am the only one that can prove what he believes.
Who else here can say that?

I'm so sick of hearing the same quotes from creationists, and the same quotes from evolutionists, and neither side is open to anything.
What's the point of discussing something if you can't hear what the other person is saying? And do you think you have a unique perspective? You're just noise among the static.

Challenge me.

-angry sloth
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No, I am the only one who can prove what he believes. You're just noise. Take that!

You have contributed absolutely nothing to this discussion. Do you understand the specific concepts we are talking about? You have yet to prove you do.

Tell me how what I said was off target, if you think you can.

here here

I believe that this whole argument can be related to native american tribe's beliefs
god is to life as the great eagle spirit is to wind
What I'm saying is that the native americans believed that wind was caused by a great eagle spirit flapping its wings. However, this is now known to be false, because we know that wind is caused by high and low pressure differences in the atmosphere. The native americans couldnt have know the real cause of wind, there belief was just a way for them to explain the the un-explained. I believe the same thing will happen with creationism, before darwin and friends, we didnt know how life came about, so a lot of us adopted creationism, but this will be proven wrong eventually, just like the eagle spirit was. My hope is that is it sooner rather than later

Man you must be mental, talking about Eagle Spirits, Wind, Darwin and his posse' That analogy you gave doesn't even fit the mold. This is much deeper than wind blowing from he west. You can't even put Creation and Wind blowing in the same category.

^^^WTF can't argue with that (RE: Post before last, somebody was faster than me)

Originally Posted by Ne

Man you must be mental, talking about Eagle Spirits, Wind, Darwin and his posse' That analogy you gave doesn't even fit the mold. This is much deeper than wind blowing from he west. You can't even put Creation and Wind blowing in the same category.
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The analogy is perfect.

Originally Posted by Ne

First of all, let me assure you that I don't find the world to be a lonely, disconnected place. I've yet to meet a materialistic athiest who does. If anything, I find life more special, more immediate and more fulfilling compared to someone who's just waiting to go to a better place. When you really believe that every moment of existence could actually be your last, it becomes that much more significant.
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I concur. I would think that life is much more precious while you're living it if you don't think that you are going to spend eternity in some paradise somewhere, which I assume if you believe in a creator that is what you think is going to happen. Why even bother with this BS then?

Originally Posted by Ne

I am so sick and tired of these arguments, and it seems that I am the only one that can prove what he believes.
-angry sloth
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Did I miss something? What is it that you can prove?

Blah...

Everything is noise.

*sigh*...I certainly won't be posting in this forum again...

Thanks guys. You've all been great.

*leaves*

Originally Posted by Aquanina

*sigh*...I certainly won't be posting in this forum again...

Thanks guys. You've all been great.

*leaves*
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I cannot blame her.

This is the unquestioned free space presence of the unqualified absolute. an extension of this concept connotes the universal force-space potential inherent in the functional totality of the unqualified absolute, while the intension of this concept implied the supposition of a supposed cosmic reality, which emanates eternitywise from the never-beginning, never-ending, never-moving, isle of conception of infinity.

This represents the first basic changes in space potency and my be one of the nether functions of the unqualified absolute.

One could suppose energy partakes of the nature of organization.

Suppose the primordial passive and potential force becomes active in response to the space presence, energy and force applied to phenomenal motion-action, could be a cause of creation.

Originally Posted by taltho

This is the unquestioned free space presence of the unqualified absolute. an extension of this concept connotes the universal force-space potential inherent in the functional totality of the unqualified absolute, while the intension of this concept implied the supposition of a supposed cosmic reality, which emanates eternitywise from the never-beginning, never-ending, never-moving, isle of conception of infinity.

This represents the first basic changes in space potency and my be one of the nether functions of the unqualified absolute.

One could suppose energy partakes of the nature of organization.

Suppose the primordial passive and potential force becomes active in response to the space presence, energy and force applied to phenomenal motion-action, could be a cause of creation.
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If only you knew how to use all those big words...

Originally Posted by Keeper

lets just think about this:

what are the odds of a gold statue forming anywhere in the universe, allowing for a billion billion years?

now, I know that this is probably a poor argument, but first you will have to tell me how we come about, set by step

actually, I think I will make a thread about that
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Sure thing, Keeps'. You know, this is actually pretty easy to answer because it's already happened! Let me break down the process.

• 1. Universe as we know it is created. Planets and starts drift and form and solar systems develop.
  
  2. One planet called "Earth" spawns replicating cells: "life".
  
  3. Over billions of years the cells grow and change and "evolve" into different species.
  
  4. One such species develops advanced "tools" and "technology". They are called "humans"
  
  5. Some humans mine and refine gold from "Earth". Some other human(s) then make this statue.

And that's how an entire golden statue can appear from nothing in five easy steps!

Originally Posted by Keeper

...I would think that the world would be alot lonier place for them. I mean, I believe that all people are connected...and I do think that we have purpose. To me it's sad to think that some people think they are so alone in this world, and that there is no purpose for them...or that there is no greater design...nothing watching over them...nothing connecting them to any sort of collective consciousness...no source. To me, that would seem like a very lonely place to be, and a lonely life to have.
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Even were that true it wouldn't matter. One shouldn't even give the slightest regard to which belief would make them feel better. I don't know about you, but I can't help but go with the ones that seem most true. If the world is that cold shell you describe, then that's what I'll call it.

Originally Posted by Keeper

eternitywise[/b]

Best adverb of 2007.

f only you knew how to use all those big words... rlp_smilie_178.gif[/b]

I know what I'm talking about, I just have a hard time explaining my self sometimes.

I asked this earlier, but nobody answered it...

What are the chances of that junk yard junk being blown up into the air and landing and forming God?

I couldnt give you figures
however
the chances of forming an onipotent being capable of creating a universe out of a scrap yard, is I'd say smaller than the chance of forming the universe.

Imran

Originally Posted by imran_p

I couldnt give you figures
however
the chances of forming an onipotent being capable of creating a universe out of a scrap yard, is I'd say smaller than the chance of forming the universe.

Imran
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That's exactly why I don't accept the argument that the universe is such a big deal that God must exist.

"You need to be more appreciative instead trying to prove that it wasn't given to you by an intelligent designer.

I refuse to believe that it just happened."

I think lines like this show your reasoning. You refuse to believe it because you can't accept it and that you would feel really lonely thinking that your brain isn't some incredible gift from god. Your emotional cravings should not have any effect on one's (lack of) scientific reasoning. However, for you, they do.

And you should read about natural selection. Here a little story that could help you grasp the concept of a brain coming into existence through evolution.

1. A tissue is created in an organism through mutation that can sense changes in temperature. This helps it from burning, and therefore it has a greater chance to reproduce (hint: google natural selection). The positive adaptation (hint: google adaptation) is passed on to future organisms.

2. Various mutations occur, some negative or neutral, and after millions of reproduction of organisms a mutation occurs that causes more accurate ability to sense temperature and nerves come into existence through mutation that connect to the tissue which better the organisms to react to heat. This keeps the organism from dieing in a fire, or something.

3. Over billions of years, (consider millions of organisms can reproduce EACH year, which is a very conservative number. Mutations will occur within many out of those millions), this basic "brain" will attain more basic stimuli-responding tissues and abilities, which grow more complex as more mutations are passed down through natural selection.

Remember that the fact that you are ignorant and cannot understand the process of natural selection does not mean it didn't happen. Please please please please buy a book regarding natural selection (and evolution of the brain and senses, etc.). The fact that something is complex is completely irrelevant to its creation. And moreso, if god were to "create" us, what is the point of it having been so complex, anyhow? Wouldn't it have been easier to have made magic run our brains instead of nerves/electrical signals/all the different functioning parts of our bran? The answer is that through evolution, mutations have adapted organism's ability to respond to stimuli through extensive reproduction and passing on of positive adaptations. So, no, just because you don't understand evolution (seriously, read a book about it then try to argue that its too complex to have come into existence by itself...) doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. And your refusal doesn't lie within scientific logic, anyway, it lies within your "refusal" to believe that you aren't special and you think it is offensive that we evolved from single celled organisms. Hate to break it to you...

Originally Posted by ataraxis

So, no, just because you don't understand evolution (seriously, read a book about it then try to argue that its too complex to have come into existence by itself...) doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. And your refusal doesn't lie within scientific logic, anyway, it lies within your "refusal" to believe that you aren't special and you think it is offensive that we evolved from single celled organisms. Hate to break it to you...
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Well tell me Mr. Wizard Where did this single cell organsim come from?

Originally Posted by Ne

Well tell me Mr. Wizard Where did this single cell organsim come from?
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First off, how ironic of you to call the one advocating evolution a "wizard."

Secondly, and this is important, evolution does NOT answer the question "where did life/single celled organism" come from. You are further demonstrating your ignorance on evolution. Evolution has to do with just that, EVOLUTION. Not the creation of an organism, the evolution. So basically, remember that evolution does not deal with the origin of life.

Thirdly, the fact that there is no theory that is as strong as evolution. However, there are still MANY THEORIES. I suggest that you take a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_Life. But don't go argue that it MUST BE GOD because we don't know. Refer to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Just because we cannot explain something, doesn't mean it is the result of god. This reminds me of uneducated ancient civilizations who explain everything by god, because they don't know a scientific explanation.

"The sun is dissapearing (hint: google solar eclipse), and I can't explain it! It must be a god!" Do you honestly, and I'm serious, jump to the conclusion that it is only a god that could have done this just because we don't understand it yet?