Thread: A Picture Of Muhammad

Originally Posted by joey11223

by the seas under the Earth it sounds more like underground water deposites rather then seas, i think maybe they ment the rivers of fire in hell or something.

But yeah still weird, nobody film those deep sea explorations!!! Infact dont even open your eyes when your down there..infact dont go down their period! Same with cloud level, you better not go above it, and if you do, you damn well better not have your eyes open!![/b]

I have seen videos of scuba divers swimming in underwater caves. If that is a direct violation of the Second Commandment, it seems like fundamentalists would be going crazier over that than just about anything. I'm glad there are limits to the embrarassment they are willing inflict on themselves.

ha i knew i'd get you to admit you watched those sinful educational videos, i am sooo gonna email God about you! Stop watching them, better for you to not know whats down there and not get a better idea of how our Earth is made, hence say God did it( like lightning), then for you to become even more educated about how our planet was made!!!!

Originally Posted by joey11223

ha i knew i'd get you to admit you watched those sinful educational videos, i am sooo gonna email God about you! Stop watching them, better for you to not know whats down there and not get a better idea of how our Earth is made, hence say God did it( like lightning), then for you to become even more educated about how our planet was made!!!![/b]

And we all know where that leads...

Originally Posted by CymekSniper

So you think muslims blow themselves up because of their religion do you?[/b]

Religion is the device that is used by people to blow themselves up. Often those people believe in that device (the Koran), but also in some other stuff (kill jews/Americans). However, I never seen a stronger device to let people blow themselves up then religion, so you could conclude that it is religion for the most part that is making those people blow themselves up, yes.

Originally Posted by Neruo

Religion is the device that is used by people to blow themselves up. Often those people believe in that device (the Koran), but also in some other stuff (kill jews/Americans). However, I never seen a stronger device to let people blow themselves up then religion, so you could conclude that it is religion for the most part that is making those people blow themselves up, yes.[/b]

he has a point, many of the great wars havebeen caused by religious arguements, though really it is humans that have twisted their own religions ratehr then the base religion itself.

Though with suicide bombers, there is also the leaders of terrorist groups that brain wash them into thinking the Qu'Ran says one thing when in reality it is saying something totally different. Also notice how the terrorist leaders would never blow themselves up for this " ultimate death which leads to paradise", interesting eh...

Originally Posted by joey11223

...says one thing when in reality it is saying something totally different.[/b]

The term is "interpreting".

Originally Posted by Universal

Good grief. I didn't know that. I just Googled the Ten Commandments and saw it for myself. Why didn't they teach me that in Sunday school? So it's a sin for scientists to use diagrams to teach about the layers of the Earth (Maybe because Hell is not taught to be one of the layers?). The fundamentalists are so gung ho in their fight to keep evolution from being taught in schools, but why aren't they screaming against the teachings of volcano physics and marine biology? Illustrating marine life is a sin. Scuba diving videos on TLC must really have some panties in a wad. I wonder what I'll run into next.[/b]

I don't think science diagrams are likenesses to what they teach about. I'm not entirely sure what this commandment means actually. But maybe it means that we shouldn't try to create our own life like God did, or make up fake gods.

"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I The Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love Me and keep My Commandments."[/b]

That is the whole second commandment, it has nothing to do with actual "images", that is, drawing. It forbids the making of saints or, even worse, gods and having faith in them. Any idols that represent godly nature and what not, be it another human being on the Earth or a voodoo doll considered as a god, etc.

Reminds me of Simon Magus.

Originally Posted by Merlock

That is the whole second commandment, it has nothing to do with actual "images", that is, drawing. It forbids the making of saints or, even worse, gods and having faith in them. Any idols that represent godly nature and what not, be it another human being on the Earth or a voodoo doll considered as a god, etc.

Reminds me of Simon Magus.[/b]

Here is a list of definitions of "graven".

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/graven

It sounds like the commandment is talking about any kind of illustration. Muslim fanatics, not that they are automatically right, think a graven image is a cartoon in the newspaper comics.

You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them;[/b]

Bow down to them, serve them.
A "graven image" in this case implies "you shall not impress the image of God upon others". As in, "don't make that person on the street corner over there into the image of God, don't worship him as if he is God, godlike, etc."

Originally Posted by Merlock

Bow down to them, serve them.
A "graven image" in this case implies "you shall not impress the image of God upon others". As in, "don't make that person on the street corner over there into the image of God, don't worship him as if he is God, godlike, etc."[/b]

It specifically talks about not making graven images of the heavens and what is in water underground. That would be illustrations of space and what is in underground water. Such things are all over science textbooks. The part about bowing down to them comes after the semicolon and is a separate point. The passage says nothing about deifying things between space and underground except indirectly by mentioning that God is jealous.

Originally Posted by Universal

It specifically talks about not making graven images of the heavens and what is in water underground. That would be illustrations of space and what is in underground water. Such things are all over science textbooks. The part about bowing down to them comes after the semicolon and is a separate point. The passage says nothing about deifying things between space and underground except indirectly by mentioning that God is jealous.[/b]

Ha ha, it so much fun that I'm apparently the only Hebrew speaker here, and so I can read the original text and speak condensatingly about what it really says.

לֹא יִהְיֶה לְךָ אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים עַל פָּנָי. לֹא תַעֲשֶׂה לְךָ פֶסֶל וְכָל תְּמוּנָה אֲשֶׁר בַּשָּׁמַיִם מִמַּעַל וַאֲשֶׁר בָּאָרֶץ מִתָּחַת וַאֲשֶׁר בַּמַּיִם מִתַּחַת לָאָרֶץ. לֹא תִשְׁתַּחֲוֶה לָהֶם וְלֹא תָעָבְדֵם - כִּי אָנֹכִי ה' אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֵל קַנָּא, פֹּקֵד עֲוֹן אָבֹת עַל בָּנִים עַל שִׁלֵּשִׁים וְעַל רִבֵּעִים לְשׂנְאָי, וְעֹשֶׂה חֶסֶד לַאֲלָפִים לְאֹהֲבַי וּלְשֹׁמְרֵי מִצְוֹתָי[/b]

What it really says is: You shell not have other gods instead of me. Don't do any statue and any picture of the sky above and of the earth beneath and of the water under the earth. don't bow to them and don't worship them - because I am the Lord your god a jealous God, commanding the guilt of fathers unto sons in threes and fores to my haters, and doing favors to thousands to my lovers and to the keepers of my commands.

So you see the part where you can't do statues and pictures is right in the middle of don't have other gods, and don't bow to them. This proves that God only means that you should not create pictures or statues of other gods and worship them. In other words: Don't be a pagan. Don't paint a men with a face of a dog and warship him etc.
But this says nothing about painting for artistic value, so that is allowed.

BTW, if you read a little bit further, it becomes apparent that "water under the earth" isn't underground water, it is actualy meant to refer to the sea.

Originally Posted by dodobird

Ha ha, it so much fun that I'm apparently the only Hebrew speaker here, and so I can read the original text and speak condensatingly about what it really says.
What it really says is: You shell not have other gods instead of me. Don't do any statue and any picture of the sky above and of the earth beneath and of the water under the earth. don't bow to them and don't worship them - because I am the Lord your god a jealous God, commanding the guilt of fathers unto sons in threes and fores to my haters, and doing favors to thousands to my lovers and to the keepers of my commands.

So you see the part where you can't do statues and pictures is right in the middle of don't have other gods, and don't bow to them. This proves that God only means that you should not create pictures or statues of other gods and worship them. In other words: Don't be a pagan. Don't paint a men with a face of a dog and warship him etc.
But this says nothing about painting for artistic value, so that is allowed.

BTW, if you read a little bit further, it becomes apparent that "water under the earth" isn't underground water, it is actualy meant to refer to the sea.[/b]

It looks to me like the part about not making graven images and not bowing down to them are two separate points. It looks like it says not to make graven images because doing so would be worshipping something else. It flat out says specifically not to make them and goes into why. If it said, "Don't build houses. Do not worship houses," it would be saying that to build a house is to worship a house. It wouldn't mean that it is okay to build houses as long as you don't worship them. "Don't build houses," would mean not to build houses.

Originally Posted by dodobird

Don't do any statue and any picture of the sky above and of the earth beneath and of the water under the earth.[/b]

I don't see any exceptions there. It says not to create those things.

I still can't believe the original post hasn't been deleted by a mod, then I realised, this forum is unmoderated. I don't care either way, but I bet you wouldn't show a muslim that to their face.

Isn't that just slightly cowardly?

Haha, most hilarious topic in the R/S ever!

Originally Posted by Universal

It looks to me like the part about not making graven images and not bowing down to them are two separate points. It looks like it says not to make graven images because doing so would be worshipping something else. It flat out says specifically not to make them and goes into why. If it said, "Don't build houses. Do not worship houses," it would be saying that to build a house is to worship a house. It wouldn't mean that it is okay to build houses as long as you don't worship them. "Don't build houses," would mean not to build houses.
I don't see any exceptions there. It says not to create those things.[/b]

nay, I think you are mistaken. To make it short it says this: don't have other gods. don't make pictures or statues. don't worship them. It sais it in this order. Doesn't it look to you like god means pictures or statues of the other gods?
why would God be against art? at the time of the Bible, it was extremely commonplace world-wide to warship gods portrayed in pictures and statues. So God says: don't do that, don't make images of other gods and worship them, only warship me, coz' i'm real jealous. Well, anyway this is what I understand from this commandment.

In any case, both mainstream Judaism and Islam agree with your interpretation: they say you shouldn't paint or sculpt at all, unless it's graphical ornaments. I think they are just being overly cautious by interpreting this to be harsher than God intended.

Originally Posted by Universal

It looks to me like the part about not making graven images and not bowing down to them are two separate points. It looks like it says not to make graven images because doing so would be worshipping something else. It flat out says specifically not to make them and goes into why. If it said, "Don't build houses. Do not worship houses," it would be saying that to build a house is to worship a house. It wouldn't mean that it is okay to build houses as long as you don't worship them. "Don't build houses," would mean not to build houses.
I don't see any exceptions there. It says not to create those things.[/b]

Why would God not want us to create images of the things in the world the way you're describing it? It doesn't make sense.

Jesus was a carpenter I think. He built houses. He was also perfect.

You are all going to HELL!!!!!

Originally Posted by Conforming

You are all going to HELL!!!!![/b]

MAY THE POWER OF CHRIST REPEL THEE VILE DEMON! >: (

Originally Posted by dodobird

nay, I think you are mistaken. To make it short it says this: don't have other gods. don't make pictures or statues. don't worship them. It sais it in this order. Doesn't it look to you like god means pictures or statues of the other gods?
why would God be against art? at the time of the Bible, it was extremely commonplace world-wide to warship gods portrayed in pictures and statues. So God says: don't do that, don't make images of other gods and worship them, only warship me, coz' i'm real jealous. Well, anyway this is what I understand from this commandment.

In any case, both mainstream Judaism and Islam agree with your interpretation: they say you shouldn't paint or sculpt at all, unless it's graphical ornaments. I think they are just being overly cautious by interpreting this to be harsher than God intended.[/b]

It doesn't say something like, "Don't make graven images of that which is under the ocean or that which is in the sky and then worship them." It says something to the effect of, "Don't make graven images of things in the ocean or the sky. On top of that, don't worship them." The points are two separate sentences. If the law says, "Don't kill people. Don't have sex with dead people," that's two rules, not one. It means that murder and necrophilia are both illegal, not just necrophilia. It wouldn't mean, "It's okay to kill people, but don't have sex with them after you do."

Originally Posted by dodobird

Why would God not want us to create images of the things in the world the way you're describing it? It doesn't make sense.[/b]

To me, the Bible doesn't make sense. I don't expect a passage in the Bible to make sense, so my interpretations are not based on that criterion. Why would an infinitely powerful being be jealous of statues in the first place?

Originally Posted by Universal

Why would an infinitely powerful being be jealous of statues in the first place?[/b]

He isn't jealous the same way we think of jealousy. When he said he was jealous it just meant that he doesn't want you to worship any false gods/idols, only him.

So my point stands. Like I had said from the beginning - not making a graven image in that commandment means, just as Universal Mind has been saying - don't worship other people as God, don't worship statues, paintings or any items as God either. "Any" being described in the commandment text in a specific way: "anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" - meaning absolutely anything and anyone found in the world.
Kind of makes you wonder about saints. Sure, they aren't looked upon as gods but still holy and what not...