An interesting thought

[Replicon]

There's a lot of arguments about god going around here. There is no proof, yes there is, no there isn't... "If god is so real, why doesn't he show himself?" To which some christian will always answer, "well, because god wants us to have faith... if god just makes a presence, there would be no more need for faith"... And I've been thinking... would that be so bad? No need for faith? I think if there's no need for faith, maybe we can all start friggin getting along. Think about it: God comes out of the shadows, and gives us ALL the answers. Not "faith" answers, but actual answers. Let's say god says: ----- Yes, I am here, yes, I created the world, but not 4000 years ago (not sure who started that claptrap), but billions of years ago... then, I just sat back and watched. You all DO have souls - in fact, you ARE souls, in this physical medium. When your life ends, your soul will roam free in a higher state of existence. There is no "heaven" as you see it. In fact, there is no "afterlife", just "life"... you are currently living a "subchapter" of life, that is all. Don't worry about prayers, my children. I have a divine plan, and it doesn't make a difference. Just live a happy life, and please don't kill each other over me. That wasn't my intention at all when I created life. Just live out this chapter, and think of it as training wheels. Be good to each other, and above all, have some fun. I'll see you on the other side. Don't worry about the virgin mary stuff, by the way. She was a big time cheater, and Joseph was a big time gullible chump for buying that story. He knows better now, and has forgiven her. We're all great friends now, and doing pretty well. By the way, even though your life is temporary, I do need to tell something to you Rapture people: I plan on using the Earth as "soul training wheels" for many millions of years to come, so please stop global warming, for the good of generations to come. Oh yeah, and the meaning of life is: [censored by mods, sorry, we can't be revealing that just yet hahaha] ----- There. Now there's answers, a real manifestation, and no more need for faith. Would such a world be such a horrible place? If so, why? Now life has a meaning for everyone, and everyone's on the same page. No more holy wars. We can finally move on as "the human race" and explore the universe together. We can experience all these emotions without having to worry about some schmuck passing judgment, while raping children when nobody's looking. Let's work towards a happier place. I do believe that even if god didn't come forth and say all that, we can achieve a world like that.

[Oneironaught]

The thing is, if a God were to show himself, there would be more faith than ever - not less faith. Practically every one would be consumed with faith: Faith that there is a God and that they will be cared for by that God. Faith that prayer is not for naught. There'd be so much faith the world would change instantly.

[Replicon]

Well, faith is belief in the face of evidence that there is no god. In my example, people KNOW the truth, so there's no more need for FAITH (emotional speculation ). Also, in my particular example, prayer IS for naught (but don't let that take the focus away from the general point of the thread hehe).

[Matt5678]

im not 100% sure that god does exist. but i think he doesn’t just show himself because it would make us all mindless zombies. i believe in free will and we can use that to decide whether or not we believe in god. if god were to just reveal himself what would be the point of free will. we would all HAVE to believe in him. i think its less about faith and more about free will just my opinion I dont want to get into a long philosophical debate where one post takes up an entire page

[SilverZero]

I personally think it shows a great deal of ignorance to state that God does not reveal Himself. Maybe you're just not looking. Abraham Lincoln hasn't revealed himself to me, but I still believe he was real.

[wannywan]

I personally think it shows a great deal of ignorance to state that God does not reveal Himself. Maybe you're just not looking. Abraham Lincoln hasn't revealed himself to me, but I still believe he was real. That's because he was real, and his presence and actions were documented. Now, your deity on the other hand...

[Bonsay]

I think it might take "the fun" out of life. I guess humans must keep doing something, finding the "truth" is one of those things. Like for thousands of years we have been searching for this truth, the one big goal, divine plan. Suddenly it's all over. What then? Yes, we could "enjoy" nature and life, but perhaps it would also suddenly feel "not as special" or beautiful as it used to be. Personally I'd rather enjoy the search for truth. im not 100% sure that god does exist. but i think he doesn’t just show himself because it would make us all mindless zombies. i believe in free will and we can use that to decide whether or not we believe in god. if god were to just reveal himself what would be the point of free will. we would all HAVE to believe in him. i think its less about faith and more about free will Well what about all the material things? You see trees, apples, people... You HAVE to believe in them, where is the free will? You can choose not to believe in a god that has revealed himself, the same way you can choose not to believe in trees. The question is, are you capable to deny something so "obvious"? Personally I think that free will is an illusion. I don't know if we are talking about the same free will. I understood your post like it was about choice, which is the result of free will. Not about free will itself.

[jaasum]

Well if you read the Christian religion this WILL happen. According to prophecy.

[Replicon]

I personally think it shows a great deal of ignorance to state that God does not reveal Himself. Maybe you're just not looking. Abraham Lincoln hasn't revealed himself to me, but I still believe he was real. The revelations of god you're talking about are the kind that you only see if you already strongly believe. I'm talking about a full on, "here's your answer, now get on with your lives" kind of revelation. And why would that make us mindless zombies? We can still think for ourselves. We still have free will to do anything we please (except we know god is real, so that one question is eliminated).

[Oneironaught]

The revelations of god you're talking about are the kind that you only see if you already strongly believe. I'm talking about a full on, "here's your answer, now get on with your lives" kind of revelation. And why would that make us mindless zombies? We can still think for ourselves. We still have free will to do anything we please (except we know god is real, so that one question is eliminated). I agree. If God were proven to exist then many more people would feel compelled to follow God's teachings and will. It seems to me like that would be GOOD for business. Then faith would only have to decide whether God will provide for their needs and not whether their lives are actually based on lies and deception.

[jaasum]

I honestly don't think that is the nature of God. You would miss the whole point of knowing God if you never had to seek. You might already be looking at God and not even realize it. I think when you "realize" there is a God, that is the moment He has revealed Himself to you. It's more internal than external with God. Every religion text I have read tends to lean this way, it is very rarely "Behold! I am God!" Think of this analogy. Knowing God like this thread is talking about is sort of like winning the lottery. Someone who wins the lottery will become rich in an instant, the riches everyone longs for happen overnight. Then there is the lowly immigrant who comes over seas with twenty dollars in their pocket, then works their way up to being a millionaire. Who understands the value of a dollar more?

[Xaqaria]

Theists and atheists alike should stop thinking about god in personal terms. There still is the possibility that a higher being just doesn't have the capacity to care what you do or believe.

[Xaqaria]

I agree. If God were proven to exist then many more people would feel compelled to follow God's teachings and will. It seems to me like that would be GOOD for business. Then faith would only have to decide whether God will provide for their needs and not whether their lives are actually based on lies and deception. Even if you think about it in terms of a personal god, (which is silly to me but I'm willing to suspend disbelief for the sake of argument) its very likely that "good for business" meaning more worshippers is not good for the business of keeping the planet alive. Billions of people leaving their daily choices and events up to the decision of god would bring the global social structure to a stand still.

[jaasum]

I don't see it as not caring about what we do or believe, more like allowing us to do what we please. God isn't into the business of leaving us with no options, He likes the options, sees them as necessary for our own good and part of our understanding of Him. It's a matter of contrast.

[Xaqaria]

I don't see it as not caring about what we do or believe, more like allowing us to do what we please. God isn't into the business of leaving us with no options, He likes the options, sees them as necessary for our own good and part of our understanding of Him. It's a matter of contrast. Okay, but why is an omnipotent and omniscient (at least compared to us) being concerned with anything that you think and do? Why does this being that is everywhere and knows everything even have the capacity for concern?

[jaasum]

I don't think it's concerned. I think it involves itself with the human experience because it cares but it is in complete control of the situation, and sees all we experience, either good or bad part of the necessary experience. It weeps when we weep and rejoices when we rejoice, but it is always keeping in mind the end result - heaven- nirvana- whatever. All things lead to this.

[Xaqaria]

Why? Imagine yourself with the capacity to know all things. I realize this is no easy task but if you can even come to a basic understanding of what this might be like, perhaps you can tell me why you would think like human beings at all?

[jaasum]

Because you designed them (I am not a young earth creationists or anything dont even start on that crap) therefore you know how they work. Look you aren't going to get solid answers out of me because I don't know the WHY for everything. Nobody does. I am apply what I understand to what I know.

[Oneironaught]

I don't see it as not caring about what we do or believe, more like allowing us to do what we please. God isn't into the business of leaving us with no options, He likes the options, sees them as necessary for our own good and part of our understanding of Him. It's a matter of contrast. But I fail to see how knowing God exists takes away options.

[jaasum]

Because KNOWING God is something YOU have achieve. He isn't going to do it for you. Just sitting there and saying "God reveal yourself to me" isn't going to do anything, because God isn't quite like that, it happens to some people but not usually (my experience was somewhat like that.) But even after that happens knowing God isn't an easy task. If God revealed Himself to mankind in an instant he would defeat His own Goals. His goals are for you to realize Him. Yes, it could be just as easy at that, but there is a reason he made the world like it is with all the doubt pain and suffering. Our perception has a lot to do with it. How much more will you understand God when at first you do everything you can to undertand existence without Him? Do you see my train of thought anymore? Or are you still stuck on the "easy way out" kinda mentality? (I don't mean that in a condescending way, I just seem to have a hard time showing you what I am trying to say)

[Oneironaught]

Because KNOWING God is something YOU have achieve. Knowing some one exists isn't the same thing as "knowing" that person. I'm not talking about "knowing" God (no one can know anyone without meeting them). I'm talking about knowing God exists. Big difference, Grasshopper. Do you see my train of thought anymore? Or are you still stuck on the "easy way out" kinda mentality? You're the one taking the easy way out. I question reality; you accept what you've been told by others who don't know either. Again, big difference.

[RooJ]

If God revealed Himself to mankind in an instant he would defeat His own Goals. His goals are for you to realize Him. Like a giant game of hide and seek, he just needed to create a partner to play it with? [/jk] But seriously if i created AI it would be an awesome feeling to have it realize it was created and figure out i was the creator. At the same time im not sure that would be the main aim of a god, i think it would be more of an experiment, like running a a genetic algorithm and letting it play out untouched.

[Original Poster]

Because KNOWING God is something YOU have achieve. He isn't going to do it for you. Just sitting there and saying "God reveal yourself to me" isn't going to do anything, because God isn't quite like that, it happens to some people but not usually (my experience was somewhat like that.) But even after that happens knowing God isn't an easy task. If God revealed Himself to mankind in an instant he would defeat His own Goals. His goals are for you to realize Him. Yes, it could be just as easy at that, but there is a reason he made the world like it is with all the doubt pain and suffering. Our perception has a lot to do with it. How much more will you understand God when at first you do everything you can to undertand existence without Him? Do you see my train of thought anymore? Or are you still stuck on the "easy way out" kinda mentality? (I don't mean that in a condescending way, I just seem to have a hard time showing you what I am trying to say) I agree with you, the only thing that matters in this universe at the end of the day is love, and to understand love is to understand God, but you have to earn understanding yourself. People who are given understanding of God do not comprehend love, only fear. As soon as one understand that the greatest feeling in the world comes from the love you give away they comprehend God. Furthermore this isn't something that has to happen intellectually. Understandinf of God comes from something beyond the brain. the brain can only comprehend god through symbols. Jehova, some dude that made the earth in 6 days and chills in some clouds with a massive choir meeting every wednesday and poop made out of diamonds is just a symbol, the purpose behind it is to inspire love, but I digress love comes from genuine understanding of your world, not from being given a threat.