Moderates (the rant)

[Needcatscan]

I do a lot of reading on multiple forums and atheist sites and I try to constantly keep up with atheist news. So this rant is inspired by Michael Behe and his latest book (among other people) where he basically says, "I was just kidding before, Evolution IS true, the earth IS billions of years old, but God guides the mutations". So here is where my rant starts: Moderates pride themselves on taking the life of Jesus and emulating it. While I personally think that's awesome, cause religious or not, Jesus was for the most part a good guy, it is also terribly WRONG. Whether moderates like it or not, Jesus is part of CHRISTIANITY, Christianity is based solely on the BIBLE. Not parts of the bible, the whole damn thing. Moderates say, "We follow the basic message of the new testament, love your neighbor as yourself, do unto others. . . blah blah blah". That's good, you're following one of the very few parts of the bible that should be followed. But you can't do that! You can't just take the parts that are nice, if you follow the god damn religion, and the god damn religion is based off of the book, you have to follow the whole book! BIBLE: Gays are an abomination. MODERATE REPLY: That was back then. BIBLE: Stone your children if they are disrespectful. MODERATE REPLY: That was back then. BIBLE: God tells his people to utterly destroy all people of a tribe: men, women (non-virgins), animals, and children, and the remaining virgins be left for God's army (and they weren't left alive to cook for them either). MODERATE REPLY: That was back then. (Yeah, we really get our morality from the bible. Thank god we don't). BIBLE: Don't beat your slave bad enough to damage teeth. (New Testament). MODERATE REPLY: That was STILL back then. BIBLE: Earth was created in 6 days. MODERATE REPLY: That's figurative (or there was a big gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2) BIBLE: Four corners of the earth. MODERATE REPLY: That's figurative. (Yeah, for what? The 4 poles of the Earth? Still doesn't work). BIBLE: Non-believers will burn in a lake of fire, utter darkness, and that terrible nashing of teeth. MODERATE REPLY: That's figurative, it just means separation from God (some even go as far to say it means non-existence, which is convenient cause then us atheists are going to the fate we already know everyone's going to). BIBLE: Only people who accept Jesus will go to heaven, meaning billions and billions of people will populate hell. SOME MODERATES REPLY: Well every religion makes its way to God one way or another. BIBLE: Noah's flood, every "kind" of animal, etc. MODERATES: Figurative for starting over. If I seriously thought about it (and I encourage other people to help add to the list in this thread) I could add and add and add. My point is this: Why do they say they're Christians????? They're obviously not. If the only thing they believe is that Jesus was God on earth and he died so they might live in eternity, then that is not Christianity. That is completely disregarding and ignoring the whole entire book except for that one lovey dovey good feeling part of the loving savior. You can't just read and believe in one part. There's a raging debate over whether Jesus really existed, if that was to go one sided and be proven that he didn't exist, then what??? MODERATE REPLY: Well Jesus was a figurative person we should live our life by and if we do this then we will go to heaven. Right? I mean, every time something else in the bible is proven wrong or our moral zeitgeist shifts, then something in the bible all of a sudden turns figurative or "appropriate for that time" (which apparently the Muslims are still "in that time", but that's another argument for another time). So moderates need to realize that they don't believe in Christianity, they believe in the one small good aspect of Christianity, which are the things that Jesus taught, which WERE good things that people should live their life by (not all of them, don't go sell all your stuff and wait for him to come back cause, well, you'll be waiting a long time). What you need to do is accept the fact that the religion you think you believe is a sham and instead of believing in Jesus as a savior, think of him as a teacher and philosopher and live a good life because that's the right thing to do (according to our moral zeitgeist, society, and the many social patterns formed through evolution). This is pretty much what you are doing anyway, minus the heaven because you believe in Jesus as a savior. It's all or nothing. Either be a Christian and believe in the whole bible, or don't.

[Xaqaria]

Why not? What exactly is wrong with taking good old ideas and throwing out bad old ideas that were associated with them? Chances are, if there was a real man Jesus and he were alive today instead of 2000 years ago, he would abandon many of the old beliefs as well. Certain practices and beliefs are fitting only in their contextual time period, and others are timeless; or at least still applicable. Not only that, there is proof that Jesus threw out many old ideas, as he did not adhere to the traditions of the old testament and preached that all anyone needed to be saved was to accept him as their savior. There is no rule of nature that says you must believe everything word for word, or else you aren't allowed to believe any of it. I think it is the mark of a good Christian if they are capable of admitting that their religious predecessors got some things wrong, but they also got some things right. Also, you realize by saying that the things that Jesus taught are one small aspect of Christianity you look like an idiot right? Christianity is the worship of Jesus Christ. The old Testament (also known as the jewish Torah) was included in the bible because many people were not ready to give up their old beliefs, but it is not required to adhere to any of what the old testament says to still be a Christian. In fact, you could easily say that you believe Jesus himself did not believe in any Judaism and simply used it as credibility for himself in order to spread his own ideas and you could still call yourself a Christian.

[GestaltAlteration]

Christianity means "Christ follower." What you are suggestion (seeing Jesus as a moral teacher, a good fellow) completely demolishes the point and bends Christians into love philosophers. You can call my beliefs a sham, so be it. The old testament is the division between man and God, the 10 commandments, the rules and regulations. Without this pre-Christ account we would not realize how far each and every one of us is from God. Not a single letter has been erased from the law, this is true, but it is grace that saves us. We see how much we are separated, how much we would have to do to make ourselves perfect, yet falling short we are still forgiven. Now that's something. This is why Christians have no right to boast, or to judge! I agree with some of your points though, Need. These statements are in the bible, and should be taken as they are-- and faced more readily.

[nerve]

I agree with the previous posters. a Christian is a "follower of Christ". I think what you're describing is Fundamentalism. a movement in American Protestantism that arose in the early part of the 20th century in reaction to modernism and that stresses the infallibility of the Bible not only in matters of faith and morals but also as a literal historical record, holding as essential to Christian faith belief in such doctrines as the creation of the world, the virgin birth, physical resurrection, atonement by the sacrificial death of Christ, and the Second Coming. there is a verse in the bible, "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." (Proverbs 3:5). when you come to an understanding about something, you have a belief, you believe it to be true. what the verse is saying, I believe, is that you should trust in God first and foremost, and everything else is open to consideration. when you hold on to a set of beliefs without willingness to consider whether or not they are truly Godly, you are trusting in those beliefs more than you trust in God, you're "leaning unto your own understanding." the subsequent verse, Proverbs 3:6 says "In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths." I think these two verses are pretty much saying to keep your mind open. wow, verses in the bible actually saying to keep an open mind! and I believe it applies to absolutely everything, as it says, "trust in the Lord with all thine heart", which, yes, includes the rest of the bible. if you think that's wrong, consider this. would you believe everything a person said if they claimed that they were led by God, or given instructions from God? of course not. I can't think of any examples right now, and I don't know exactly what to search for to find examples because I usually suck at finding things on the internet (can someone help me out here?) but there have been plenty of people who claim to have been led by God, even though they did terrible things. so, obviously, not everyone who claims to be led by God really is. knowing that the bible was written by man (unless you believe God came to earth in the form of a person and wrote the words down himself) AND considering the possibility that over time (a long time) some things may have gotten misinterpreted or twisted to fit certain people's prejudices (as people are notorious for doing), you must realize that while some parts of the bible are truly inspired by God, some parts may have been written by people who only thought they were being led by God. in short, I worship God, not a book.

[♥Mark]

there is a verse in the bible, "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." (Proverbs 3:5). when you come to an understanding about something, you have a belief, you believe it to be true. what the verse is saying, I believe, is that you should trust in God first and foremost, and everything else is open to consideration. when you hold on to a set of beliefs without willingness to consider whether or not they are truly Godly, you are trusting in those beliefs more than you trust in God, you're "leaning unto your own understanding." And when the word of god and something else contradict, which one are you supposed to ignore? Can we ignore this passage?

[nerve]

my post wasn't finished, sorry. I was in the middle of editing it when you replied. does my revised post answer your question?

[♥Mark]

my post wasn't finished, sorry. I was in the middle of editing it when you replied. does my revised post answer your question? No, not really. It does raise a further question, though. If much of the Bible has been written by man and possibly "misinterpreted or twisted to fit certain people's prejudices", then how can you be even remotely sure that any of the Bible is the word of god?

[Needcatscan]

No, not really. It does raise a further question, though. If much of the Bible has been written by man and possibly "misinterpreted or twisted to fit certain people's prejudices", then how can you be even remotely sure that any of the Bible is the word of god? Exactly. Jesus is the main part of Christianity, but the only reason any Christian knows anything about Jesus is because of the bible (cause I doubt most people read the accounts of Josephus). So if all these things in the bible can be "figurative" to fit the times or to fit scientific progress, then why not Jesus also? In another couple years, something else will come up that will turn another verse (or multiple) verses into being figurative; there will be no end. Now if a person is a Christian because they follow the teachings of Jesus and try to live their lives according to his teachings then great (I do these things and I'm an atheist), but don't in the next breath say that all religions find their way to god or that evolution and Christianity are compatible, because it directly contradicts that book that is *supposed* to be infallible. You have faith that Jesus rose from the dead even though science (and logic) have proven that 100% impossible, so why not have faith that the earth was created in 6 days too?

[nerve]

No, not really. It does raise a further question, though. If much of the Bible has been written by man and possibly "misinterpreted or twisted to fit certain people's prejudices", then how can you be even remotely sure that any of the Bible is the word of god? because God is love, selflessness. that I'm sure of, not just because the bible says so, but from experience. selflessness works. so if there is selflessness in it, it's of God.

[GestaltAlteration]

I do not believe any part of the Bible to be false. I do understand there are cultural contexts, but this does not change the message. However my statement about the Old testament still stands. It is not false, rather, the law has been covered by Christ. Does this mean killing someone is no longer a sin? No. Rather a true Christian will not do these things (steal, covet, etc.) for the love of God and their neighbor. A new freedom has been brought from a king foretold in the old testament hundreds of times. Thus, we do not slaughter lambs, so forth. There are books in the Bible greatly figurative. This includes Daniel and Revelations (both foretelling of times yet to pass). Most others are face-value and matter-of-fact that does not attempt to hide the good and the bad in any man or woman. I believe Mark poses an excellent point. I also agree with paperdoll only in the respect that the Bible is not all there is. There are many Christians in the world who have never read even a single page of the Bible.

[♥Mark]

because God is love, selflessness. that I'm sure of, not just because the bible says so, but from experience. selflessness works. so if there is selflessness in it, it's of God. Then what purpose is the Bible, and furthermore, what is the source of your information about god?

[Needcatscan]

There are many Christians in the world who have never read even a single page of the Bible. Wow, what a statement. You're right. They heard it from word-of-mouth. From. . . . You guessed it! People who have read the bible.

[nerve]

the bible does have some good advice in it. like those verses that tell you to be open minded, for example. having an open mind, being open to others and discussion with them, is a manifestation of selflessness. it also contains some historical recordings, doesn't it? what else describes the life of Jesus, assuming he did exsist? I don't know, I'm asking you. but the reason I believe in selflessness, is because ever since I realized what God is (love, which is selflessness) and applied it to my life, it has changed dramatically for the better. I used to be an extremely nervous and anxiety-ridden individual. I was selfish because I was always worrying and therefore suffering emotionally, and constantly went to others for help. I thought I was bi-polar. but then, the very day I realized what God is, my attitude completely changed. I no longer worried almost every second. I started talking to people. (I was never social at all, in fact you could say I was anti-social. before if I ever said anything to anyone, it was almost always followed by grief. was that a stupid thing to say? am I wrong? does this person think I'm an idiot now?) now I ask questions. I learn. I have almost no worries, and because I don't worry by mind is more clear and I can recognize opportunities faster and spend more time learning. I'm productive and since I can function better myself, I have more to offer to other people, I will be more social, and for what I have to offer there will be people who have something to offer me in return.

[GestaltAlteration]

Wow, what a statement. You're right. They heard it from word-of-mouth. From. . . . You guessed it! People who have read the bible. Of course it did; from people they saw briefly and may never see again. The point is the rest of the time afterwards. As one who believes in the Bible as truth, I don't see a problem that this is the source of this word of mouth. My intention was to show that Christians do not HAVE to refer to this book at all times as if it were all there was.