Thread: how can you say that there is not a higher power?

Thanks for saying was I was trying to say a little bit ago politely, Rainman. And tehpwner, I'm sorry about flaming you, it was just a bit too hard to resist posting. I'm still having a little trouble believing I'm turning into one of those religion bashers. In any case, no hard feelings I hope?

Originally Posted by Tornado Joe

Mark75 I fail to see any of your posts to be beneficial to this particular thread and judging by the effort being put forth by everyone else in making their case, I don't see your reason for posting at all other than to annoy or break up the flow. Please try to be considerate when others (specially the thread author) wants to keep the topic's integrity.

Tornado Joe I would suggest paying more attention to my responses before criticizing me for them.


"I'm sorry? An insult? No, I mean, if the universe exists, then obviously Scientology is correct.

Oh, I understand. You're saying that Islam is the one true faith.

I'm confused. Obviously this proves God, so converting to Islam only makes sense."

Here's where I highlight the non-sequitur of universe, therefore [religion].

"Supergod in three... two..."

Here's where I (correctly) predict the inevitable response.

"Jones' Brand Soda is the universe."

And here is where I address the pointlessness of calling the universe "god". Please read more carefully next time. Thanks.

Argument from ignorance. Just because we do not have an explanation does not confirm god. I don't have a scientific explanation right now (there are theories though, that I have as well as other physicists have), but I don't see the logic in jumping to the most absurd conclusion because of lack of scientific evidence. Okay, science doesn't know. Therefore there is a man in the sky, who controls everything and created everything at his will.

The arrow of time is a consequence of the second law of thermodynamics: The entropy of a closed system always increases. For those of you who don't know, entropy is a measure of disorder.

For example, I've seen a glass bottle shatter into a bunch of pieces, but I've never a bunch of pieces come together to make a bottle. The reason is entropy.

In the case of our universe, at the time of the big bang the universe was in a highly ordered state. It has been evolving toward disorder ever since. Hence the arrow of time. (Note: the disorder of the universe is the total entropy. Local regions of order can occur, such as people and computers. But in order for these to be created, a corresponding increase in disorder occurs elsewhere.)

Hooray! Now we get to debate why the universe was so ordered in the first place. Did god make it that way, or was it Jones?

Originally Posted by tehpwner

Im thinking outloud here but how can you say that there is not a higher power? i mean i know the Big bang theory but then again what created the particles for the big bang? What created the flow of time itself?

I hope this might convert some of you skeptics here....

Please reply

Time (Astrally theoretically), is just our physical interpretation.
While APing you may visit any place at any given time.

Whether it be Earth in 100 years from now, etc.

Also in some of the "removed" parts of the Bible it makes reference to "astral projection" but is slightly negative towards it.

I, personally, believe in a "source" rather than a god, something where everything started, the creation of life etc.

Im not so much a god believer in ways of christianity, as there is much left to interpretation, also much of the bible is theoretical, that, and also that ive done some research into this.

but like i said, everything is theoretical.


*EDIT* Mark is GOD.

Originally Posted by tehpwner

Firstly im in grade 8 i dont have bio yet, secondly the odds of this excact lifesetting to happen is probably 1 to a 100 googleplex?


Also what CAUSED THE FLOW OF TIME TO START

It does not start itself........ it cannot start itself! Everything that is started has to be started by SOMETHING! for some reason i cannot grasp the fact that time could have always existed

God is exempt from the natural laws of the universe... he/she is the universe... he/she is everything. You obviously dont know what i am talking about? Please read up on the cathlioc bible and figure out what im talking about.

Dreamview suggests noone under the age of 15 to join this forum.

The Bible is extremely theoretical, do not quote the book created by man as a witness to "God", to be completely flawless.
"God" is not exempt from the nautral laws of the universe.
If you say that everything has to started by something, it makes it impossible for "God" to exist.
Unless "God" created itself? If that is a possibility then why, did someone not create a book claiming to be witness to our own self creation that could have been possibly lost in the great wars that have defined humankind?
They have.
The Bible only wins in popularity, not correctness, as everything is theoretical.

*EDIT* GO TO THIS SITE BELIEVERS OF THE "TRUTHFULL" BIBLE = http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/god.htm

Originally Posted by Mark75

Supergod in three... two...

... one... God is so incredible and great and wonderful and complex, so he could not have just happened by himself. Therefore, he was created by Supergod.

Counterargument?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

... one... God is so incredible and great and wonderful and complex, so he could not have just happened by himself. Therefore, he was created by Supergod.

Supergod is super good! He's probably Ultragod's proudest achievement.

Originally Posted by skysaw

Supergod is super good! He's probably Ultragod's proudest achievement.

Yes! And I am glad we could have Ultragod as a result of the greatness of Ultrasupergod, whose existence proves the existence of Mightygod. So thank goodness for Megastalliongod, who couldn't have just happened by himself.

If there is a chain of gods, then when do we get to be god?

Originally Posted by tehpwner

Im thinking outloud here but how can you say that there is not a higher power? i mean i know the Big bang theory but then again what created the particles for the big bang? What created the flow of time itself?

I hope this might convert some of you skeptics here....

Please reply

This really shows how delusional Religious people, are warped their view of the world is.

It is not sane to think a god could 'just exist' (before the big bang) and -for instance- the universe couldn't. (for instance, the big-bang/big-crunch theory could imply an universe that has always existed.)

That is just a fact.

But your mind somehow lost it's capacity to conceive of that fact.

Hey, its weird ive tried so many ways to wrap my mind around the fact that the universe has always existed... but i can't, anyway To rainmans post i am trying to find out what other people think about this, and different theories etc, simply trying to learn

Originally Posted by tehpwner

Hey, its weird ive tried so many ways to wrap my mind around the fact that the universe has always existed... but i can't, anyway To rainmans post i am trying to find out what other people think about this, and different theories etc, simply trying to learn

And a darn good age to start. I wish I would have started getting different views at your age, I probably would have had less years of indoctrination. Don't be afraid of thinking for yourself and doing YOUR OWN RESEARCH pwner, and don't let parents, youth pastors or anyone else tell you differently. If you believe in Christianity, believe it because YOU believe it, not because you were brought up to believe it.

Ok. Here's my recommended 'learning process' for you broken down.

1.) Never ask people's opinions of a controversial topic that there is no scientific evidence of on this forum unless you enjoy being textually abused.


2.) In the event that you do like being textually abused, proceed to say a cliche Christian reference to the bible that further contradicts scientific evidence, such as the existance of the Garden of Eden (which of course only illogical people would take literally).

Basically with me it's this. I believe in God. I believe Jesus was the son of God. I believe the bible is a big METAPHOR and has many examples and ideas for how to live your life. Apart from that, I disagree with "modern" Christianity and all denominations of Christianity are pointless, stupid, and misinterpretations of the bible.


Basically, the skeptic argument is that something would have to have created god in order for god to exist. Sigh. Foolish foolish skeptics open their bigmouths again, with their sarcastic references to "supergod". Obviously, you have missed one obvious fact, like you always do.


You forgot about MEGAultrasupergod. Jeez.

XD

Lol thats awesome, anyways i am trying to understand more, cause i am partially confused

Originally Posted by Bonsay

If there is a chain of gods, then when do we get to be god?

Well, since we were created by the lowest god, we're stuck at the bottom of the chain. At least until we invent intelligent robots. Or at least computers that don't blue screen every five minutes.

Originally Posted by çrepgrigo

It didn't start itself. It has always existed.

Any atheist who says that has just as much credibility as the theist who claims God exists.

There's no need to be cruel.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

If there is a chain of gods, then when do we get to be god?

Every night you succeed to have a lucid dream

There's no need to be cruel.

So why do you have entire topic that is just that? Make that two if you include that SHC one from a long time ago. Maybe more that I've missed as well.

Originally Posted by Rainman

And I see you still cannot comprehend how time could always exist, but somehow God can.

I recently had a conversation with an intellectual friend in which he made an interesting point. I don't remember the details of the theory, it was a pretty long and deep conversation. but the theory is, basically, that God is outside of time. I need to ask him to explain it to me again.

having said that, though, I want to make clear that I do consider evolution as a possibility, or rather, probability. I don't know a lot about evolution, but I recently read that virtually all of the leading scientists, and virtually everyone with an exceptionally high IQ, believes it. so there is a correlation between intelligence and the belief in evolution. assuming this is true, I understand these people must know much more about it than I do, and so I'm inclined to believe it. but I also believe it's possible that God started evolution.

Originally Posted by Rainman

...the best way to handle insults in this forum, as I've learned, is to return the favour.

I disagree. the best way to handle any insult at all, regardless of who or where it comes from, is to ignore it. if the insults persists, report the instigator.

Originally Posted by Needcatscan

And a darn good age to start. I wish I would have started getting different views at your age, I probably would have had less years of indoctrination. Don't be afraid of thinking for yourself and doing YOUR OWN RESEARCH pwner, and don't let parents, youth pastors or anyone else tell you differently. If you believe in Christianity, believe it because YOU believe it, not because you were brought up to believe it.

this is exactly what I was going to say. ignore Rainman's comment that you shouldn't make a thread here because you'll just get flamed, because that's obviously not true. I know there are plenty of people on here capable of and eager to have an open-minded, intelligent, thoughtful discussion with you, even on this touchy subject. Bad Wolf made some thoughtful, non-flaming replies. I enjoy reading and sharing my thoughts in this sub-fourm.

so don't don't be afraid of asking a question here, or anywhere, ever. don't be afraid of getting ridiculed or of someone thinking you're stupid. those people are wrong. you should never be ashamed of not knowing something, but not trying to find the answer because of people who may or may not riducule you (and who would be wrong for doing so) is something to be ashamed of. if you don't worry about it, you'll continue to learn, and those people will...still just be assholes.

if all you get in a certain place is ridicule, just go somewhere else, but do keep asking until you find answers. but this forum is fine, as I said before, myself and a few others have made decent replies, so ask away.

For clarification: We are not saying the universe has always existed. We are saying existence has always existed. If God could have always existed, existence itself could have always existed. Since God would be a form of existence, people who believe God has always existed agree with us that existence has always existed. If God is outside of time, why can't scientific principles be outside of time? The issue is why that which has always been or is outside of time would have to be something with a mind and human style emotions. Why would it have to be God and not another universe or a multiverse or some set of scientific principles? If God doesn't need a designer, why would anything else?

Originally Posted by blade5x

Every night you succeed to have a lucid dream

If that's the case, then when do my DCs get to be gods? We don't even consider them conscious.

Originally Posted by tehpwner

a general rule of the universe is that anything that exists has a creation, this applies inside the universe, why does it not apply to the universe?

And why does it not apply to God? Is he exempt from this. If you say that God has always existed, then why is it not possible that the universe has always existed. Thus the chain of gods idea, which is obviously idiotic.

The Battleground God link is a very good game/quiz. It makes you choose answers to do with atheism and theism, and if you contradict yourself then you don't do as well or you get injured or something.

Congratulations!

You have been awarded the TPM medal of honour! This is our highest award for outstanding service on the intellectual battleground.
The fact that you progressed through this activity neither being hit nor biting a bullet suggests that your beliefs about God are internally consistent and very well thought out.
A direct hit would have occurred had you answered in a way that implied a logical contradiction. You would have bitten bullets had you responded in ways that required that you held views that most people would have found strange, incredible or unpalatable. However, you avoided both these fates - and in doing so qualify for our highest award. A fine achievement!

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

If God is outside of time, why can't scientific principles be outside of time?

because scientific principals cannot exsist without time.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The issue is why that which has always been or is outside of time would have to be something with a mind and human style emotions. Why would it have to be God and not another universe or a multiverse or some set of scientific principles? If God doesn't need a designer, why would anything else?

if God was there first, before time, he wouldn't need a designer because designing something takes time. get it? it couldn't be a universe or multiverse or any kinds of principles because none of those things can exsist without time. as for whether or not it has to be something with a human mind and human style emotions, I believe that God is love, or selflessness. and you can't be selfless without others. so if, in the beginning, you start with selflessness, you must have others next. to have others you must have time. make sense?