Thread: Does koran promote violence and hate?

I find it to be full of such hostility that I literally want to shit on the book. No offense, but it is one of many religious ideologies that trap an adolescent mind into ridiculous beliefs.

I appreciate the fact that you are trying to spread a peaceful message regarding Islam, and if you were doing it on the world stage, I would not argue with you because I would really like to see the world engage in a peaceful practice of Islam. However, since we are just nobodies on an internet discussion forum, I will tell you that I think the Koran is full of horribly hateful messages. We discussed that in another thread not too long ago. Read the quotes three and four posted here in post #23...

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...koran+violence

I have the same opinion of the Old Testament and New Testament.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I appreciate the fact that you are trying to spread a peaceful message regarding Islam, and if you were doing it on the world stage, I would not argue with you because I would really like to see the world engage in a peaceful practice of Islam. However, since we are just nobodies on an internet discussion forum, I will tell you that I think the Koran is full of horribly hateful messages. We discussed that in another thread not too long ago. Read the quotes three and four posted here in post #23...

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...koran+violence

I have the same opinion of the Old Testament and New Testament.

Let me save you the trouble. They will always come up with 4 verses from the Koran and bombard everyonbe with hadiths. verse 9-5 and verse 9-29, never quoting the verses between them.

Then they will quote verse 4-34 which they say allows wife beating. I will discuss this here. Then they will use verse 4-25 to say the Koran justifies having sex with female captive prisoners.

All of this can only be done by relying on hadith gossips that many translators use to translate the Koran. However there are 6,662 verses we Koranist use to debunk every one of them. 4 verses! Thats the murder manual they calim it is!

Anyways let me start with the wife beating:

The verse is wrongly translated.

[4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because God has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely God is High, Great.

The verse after it say:

4.35. If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, God will cause their reconciliation: For God hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things.

The Koran does not say beat them. It says "Idribuhunna". Which means strike them. Its from the word "daraba". Which means strike. Its translated as beat them since it goes along with sectarian hadiths that justifies beating a woman lightly if she disobeys. Beat or hit is only one possible meaning of the word Dharaba. The hadiths also says the prophet pinched or poked one of his wife. Since Aisha is always reported relating hadiths like bombs falling from a B-52 it had to be her of course. These are sources Muslim sects use to translate the Koran. These hadiths emerged 2 to 3 centuries after the prophet which the sectarian clerics believe were "orally" passed down across 6 or 7 generations. It was compiled by men like Imam Bukhari or Imam Muslim or Tabri etc. between 220 to 350 after the prophet's death.

Anyways when the Koran uses Dharaba , it always explains strike what or how. Let see the Koran:

"Seest thou not how God sets (Dharaba) forth a parable? -- A goodly Word Like a goodly tree, Whose root is firmly fixed, And its branches (reach) To the heavens". Quran 14:24

26.63. Then We told Moses by inspiration: "Strike(Idhrib) the sea with thy rod." So it divided, and each separate part became like the huge, firm mass of a mountain.

"O you who believe, if you attack (Darabtum) in the cause of God then make a clear declaration, and do not say to those who greet you with peace: 'You are not a believer!' You are seeking the vanity of this world; but with God are many riches. That is how you were before, but God favoured you, so make a clear declaration. God is expert over what you do." (Quran 4:94)

"So how will it be when the Angels put them to death, striking (Yadriboona) their faces and their backs" (Quran 47:27)

"So We sealed (Darabna) upon their ears in the cave for a number of years." (Quran 18:11)

"Shall We take-away (Na'drib) the reminder from you, because you are a transgressing people?" (Quran 43:5)

"Have you not seen how God cites (Daraba) the example of a good word is like a good tree, whose root is firm and its branches in the sky." (Quran 14:24)

"As for the poor who face hardship in the cause of God, and they cannot leave (Darban) the land; the ignorant ones think they are rich from their modesty; you know them by their features, they do not ask the people repeatedly. And what you spend out of goodness, God is fully aware of it." (Quran 2:273)

14.25. It brings forth its fruit at all times, by the leave of its Lord. So God sets forth(Yadribu) parables for men, in order that they may receive admonition

43.58. And they say, "Are our gods best, or he?" This they set forth to thee(Dharabuhu) , only by way of disputation: yea, they are a contentious people

4.101. When ye travel(Dharabtum) through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.

38.44. "And take in thy hand a little grass, and strike therewith(Fa'adrib): and break not (thy oath)." Truly We found him full of patience and constancy. How excellent in Our service! ever did he turn (to Us)!

So all these verses uses the word Dharaba differently. In fact if you look at all the verses in the Koran that uses the word Dharab, we would find it used for variou meanings:

To travel, to get out: 3:156; 4:101; 38:44; 73:20; 2:273

To strike: 2:60,73; 7:160; 8:12; 20:77; 24:31; 26:63; 37:93; 47:4

To beat: 8:50; 47:27

To set up: 43:58; 57:13

To give (examples): 14:24,45; 16:75,76,112; 18:32,45; 24:35; 30:28,58; 36:78; 39:27,29; 43:17; 59:21; 66:10,11

To take away, to ignore: 43:5

To condemn: 2:61

To seal, to draw over: 18:11

To cover: 24:31

To explain: 13:17

Since Dharaba has different meaning in the Arabic language depending on its context.

The verse only says "strike them". Yet this is insufficient to explain it as beat them, since strike(Dharaba) can mean many thing as we saw already.

The meaning strike them as to hit them or beat them physically over mere suspicion or fear is inconsistent with the Koran. Strike them can mean strike them out of the house or stike them out of your life or whatever.

O you who believe! Avoid much suspicions, indeed some suspicions are sins. And spy not, neither backbite one another. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? You would hate it . And fear God. Verily, God is the One Who accepts repentance, Most Merciful. 49.12

O you who believe! If a rebellious evil person comes to you with a news, verify it, lest you harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful to what you have done. 49.6

So we translate it as it is, and not how the hadiths say it should be, which is:

38.34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what God would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them , refuse to share their beds and strike them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means : For God is Most High.

If we look at the Koran, it mentions the situation when one ACCUSES a woman of ill conduct and even a spouse accuses another of ill conduct. Lets see what it say:

24.4. And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-

24.5. Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.

24.6. And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by God that they are solemnly telling the truth;

24.7. And the fifth that they solemnly invoke the curse of God on themselves if they tell a lie.

24.8. But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times By God, that he is telling a lie;

24.9. And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of God on herself if he is telling the truth.

24.10. If it were not for God's grace and mercy on you, and that God is Oft- Returning, full of Wisdom,-


How can then the Koran say to lay hands on someone over a mere fear or suspicion when it does not even allow it over an accusation backed by the witness of 3 people and even the witness of a spouse if the other spouse also swears by oath that its not true? So the sectarian hadith inspired translation contradicts the Koran.

As usual!

As far as what are the hadiths they use to translate it this way, you can go here:

http://www.livingislam.org/fiqhi/fiqha_e32.html

There is nothing they can produce to back it up from the Koran but hadith gossips and hearsay that was compiled 2 to 3 centuries after the prophet. The prophet and his companions did not leave anything after them but the Koran.

Koran is peace!

Ok now lets move to verse 9-5 and verse 9-29 that is always used to claim the Koran promotes violence and forced conversions. Especially in recent years.

After 9-11 there has been various debates about Islam. Some have said that the terrorist are Islam's true spoken. The so called moderates practice taqiya. Taqiya is the deliberate lying for the faith. They say Islam is a violent religion that commands Muslims to kill non Muslim. Non Muslims have 3 choices, either they convert, pay the jizya(tax) or die. They say Muhammad was peaceful for PR reasons and once strong showed his true colors and preached violent jihad. They say all the peaceful verses were abrogated after his final victory with this verse:

9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

And also this verse:

9.29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

This verses are chosen for a reason. When read alone it implies a command to attack until they convert. Of course there are other verses in the Koran that talks about fighting. But why do they tend to focus on this one? Its simple, the other verses tend to show the defensive nature of the jihad and also the malicious intent and behavior of the pagans. Thus never cited. Lets look at some of them:

2.190. Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors

2.191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith

2.193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God, but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression

Also:

2.217. They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

All these verses talks about fighting, however within these verses the defensive nature of the verses and the malicious behavior of the pagans is cited. Thus those who wish to attack Islam never cite those verses. Its a deliberate attempt to hide what the Koran as saying and using selective verses to imply what they know the verses does not mean.

Lets however look at the verse that is often cited. This time we will take the verses before and after it to see what is the context this verse is talking.

9.4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God loveth the righteous.

9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

However in the same chapter in explains the intention behind this verse:

9.13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is God Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

Its important for us to understand what the Koran is saying. When the koran says if they repent and establish regular prayers and so on, its not a command to attack them till they do that. Its a command to say if they choose to one day becoming Muslims, do not despise them because of past blood. Let bygones be bygones because now there are your brethren. If he chooses to remain pagan then let him be and do not fight him unless he chooses to fight you. The verse are read wrong, since many pagans converted to Islam and some of the earlier believers had problems with individuals who they fought before or were persecuted and oppressed by them before.

The verses clearly indicate that no forced conversion was there.There are standards that the Koran established for fighting.

As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth. As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 60:8-9

Permission (to fight) is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged, and verily, God has indeed the power to aid them. Those who have been driven from their homelands in defiance of right for no other reason than their saying, ‘Our Lord is God.’ 22:39-40

On the same chapter verse 9-29 is there. Its a continuation of that chapter. Its about those who aided the pagans among the Talmudic extremist among the Jews.

9.29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

This is explained to us in the Koran by the following verse:

59.11. Hast thou not observed the Hypocrites say to their misbelieving brethren among the People of the Book? - "If ye are expelled, we too will go out with you, and we will never hearken to any one in your affair; and if ye are attacked (in fight) we will help you". But God is witness that they are indeed liars.

59.12. If they are expelled, never will they go out with them; and if they are attacked (in fight), they will never help them; and if they do help them, they will turn their backs; so they will receive no help.

So this verse explains that the battles waged was against the pagans who fought the prophet and the Talmudic extremist who supported them. The pagans saw Muhammad as a heretic who rebelled against the religion of their forefathers.

However both Sunni Islam or Shia islam do not follow the Koranic guidance. They follow whats know as the hadiths. The hadiths are the supposed "oral" prophetic traditions they say was passed along orally across time and was collected and written down 2 to 3 centuries after the prophet. The prophet and his companions never left behind them any text except the Koran. The hadiths emerged during the reign of the Abbasid empire and was a way to establish an orthodoxy and give legitimacy to a corrupt dynasty by using the prophet's name. Everything from executing apostates, to stoning adulterers and labelling other monotheist as infidels have their support not in the koran, but in these so called hadiths. So hadiths have the same place in sectarian Islam as do the Talmud in Judaism. The Koran condemned the Talmud and Jesus in the Gospel of Mark 7 also condemned the Talmud. The Koran only recognizes the Torah and the Gospel. However like Islam, both these religions have abandoned these scriptues for either a supposed "oral" tradition that emerged centuries later or a supposed "holy ghost" who was to interpret the Gospel in ways not supported by the Gospel.

The Koran has over 35 verses guaranteeing freedom of religion and speech. However the hadiths say something else. Both the Sunni and Shia jurist believe hadiths explain the Koran and without it the Koran could not be undertsood. Indeed every sect in Islam produced hadiths from the prophet to back their sectarian dogma. These hadiths support the sect's dogma and refutes the other sects' dogma. Many of these hadiths are lies and fabrications to create an autoctratic ideology using the prophet as its spokesman and marginalyzing the Koran. Many Muslims are ignorant about this and assume the Koran supports their doctrine. They have been taught to read the Koran according to these hadiths.Many do not even know the Koran contradicts many of these hadiths and some hadiths even claims verses from the Koran are missing.

The Koranist movement is a movement that wants to educate the Muslims and non Muslim population that the ONLY authority that speaks for Islam and its prophet is the Koran. The Koran does not abrogate itself and explains itself. And that the Islam the clerics follow is not based on the koran. The Koran is a Book that preaches freedom and peace.

Did you see the specific quotes I was talking about?