Thread: Religon is Faith...Nothing more...nothing less

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

There just is no way to justify placing scientific beliefs over religious ones.

This was the start of our argument. Recently my dog was sick from an infection from a tick-bite. She probably would have died without antibiotics. I could have called every religious leader that ever lived to try and heal her and she wouldn't have gotten well. One dose of tetracycline is better than all religion combined.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Moonbeam, you are thick headed and repetitive.

Ha, look who's talking.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

You seem incapable of changing your mind about other people's beliefs that you do not understand, and your arguments are incapable of counter balancing the years of study and personal experience that are behind my beliefs.

Why don't my years of study and personal experience change your beliefs? At least I give examples of what I am talking about. I haven't seen you give any at all, beside a psychological benefit that I say can be found without the need to make things up and lie to yourself. You say most religions are obsolete, but yours is very relevant and applicable--invented by you after years of studying other religions--but you never say in what way, other than it makes you feel better, which I say is also true of idol-worship, which was your example of a primitive and obsolete religion.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Above all else; the teachings of Jesus are teachings of love and acceptance, peace and tolerance of your fellow man. No violence could come from such teachings and must come from the corruption of such teachings and the followers themselves. The same can be said for the teachings found in the koran and most other religious texts for that matter. If you focus on the negative, that is all you will ever be capable of seeing.

Right there you prove you haven't read either book in detail. I'm not going to give all the examples of the violence advocated by Jesus himself, and in the Koran, we've been thru it too many times here. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you haven't read the books. It is not difficult to understand whatsoever--you are in major denial. Don't feel bad, you have a lot of company in the world.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

I call your argument 'straw man' because you are setting up a hypothetical situation that in actuality is impossible because you think it will be an easy point to argue with me on.

It's impossible for you to imagine having children? I'm sorry, I didn't realize that was such a far-out concept for you. I guess I shouldn't have made such a bizarre assumption.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

I don't have children and so I can't answer your question.

You are so simple-minded that you can't answer a hypothetical question? I think I am beginning to see the problem here. Can you imagine having a pet? You could substitute that if it makes it easier for you.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

If I did have children, they would have a spiritual mindset and would understand the importance of positive mind long before the specific situation you are describing ever occured and so there wouldn't really be a choice between science and religion. The religion would already be there, and the science would come after.

So...your 3 month old baby gets an infection, but it will already have a spiritual mind-set? No choice between science and religion is needed? Religion will always come before science? At best people will think you are a religious freak for letting your baby die, at worst you'll get prosecuted for it.

You're right about one thing--there is no point to this conversation.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

If the best you can do is call me a liar about subjects you know nothing about, then this discussion has reached an end. Once you catch up to me in scientific study and schooling, feel free to let me know about your opinions about my worth. Until then, you can keep them to yourself and they will accomplish just as much.

I didn't say you are a liar, I said that is a lie. I could say the sky is purple and completely believe it, that doesn't mean it is true.

You said you don't concern yourself with truth, that means you are worthless, sorry but it is true.

I'd like to know your level of studies since you seem to say quite often that you are some sort of scholar, however you spare us the details, I'm assuming because you don't want to brag...but that is pointless, for if your going to state that you have a more in depth understanding of these principles than other human beings, and only saying it, it is pointless not to state the credentials you are already bragging about, to avoid bragging.

I'm quite sure I've never claimed to be a scholar in fact, I'm sure I claim to be an ignorant fool with each and every post. I've had a deep interest in the sciences since I was a young child, and am partially through a college degree in physics. I have spent the last 8 or so years reading all the information I can on particle physics, quantum mechanics, non-euclidean geometry, relativity, super-string theory, and have also briefly looked in to information about neuroscience, biochemistry, psychology, as well as a few other disciplines of science.

I have read several philosophical writers including Camus, Kant, Plato, as well as other lesser known names.

I have read books on Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Discordianism, Raelianism, Scientology, the Greek Pantheon, the Roman Pantheon, The Norse Pantheon, and Tao (I'm sure there are more) including the Christian Bible, some of the Jehovah's Witness bible, The Koran, Much of the Buddhist Mahayanas, Much of the Vedas, the principia discordia, etc..

I by no means claimed to know more than anyone else on these subjects, necessarily, only that if you are incapable of coming up with valid reasons why I am wrong and instead must resort to calling me a liar and going no further, then you know little and therefore anything I know is likely more than you as a byproduct of that statement. If you care to prove me wrong, then I welcome the opportunity but I must warn you, you questioned the truth of my description of my personal experiences and my beliefs about them, which I can only take to mean that you think I don't actually believe what I say or that I haven't had these experiences. It will be very hard indeed for you to convince me that I do not believe what I say if that is your aim, and if it is not then you do not actually believe me to have lied.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Why don't my years of study and personal experience change your beliefs? At least I give examples of what I am talking about. I haven't seen you give any at all, beside a psychological benefit that I say can be found without the need to make things up and lie to yourself. You say most religions are obsolete, but yours is very relevant and applicable--invented by you after years of studying other religions--but you never say in what way, other than it makes you feel better, which I say is also true of idol-worship, which was your example of a primitive and obsolete religion.

Listen, At this point you are merely villianizing me and you should just stop. I'm not sure what has gotten you so angry as to need to swear at me as you have in previous posts and I've ignored, or much worse, misrepresent what I have said in order to make me sound crazy. No where have I claimed that most religions are obsolete. No where have I put my own beliefs above anyone else's, and no where have I made direct reference to anything related to my own belief system, and have referred only to the concept of religion and spirituality as a whole.

I'm about tolerance and acceptance and identifying with those around me as equals. All you care about is attempting to tear down the beliefs of others by portraying them as inconsequential, ignorant, and useless despite the overwhelming majority that disagrees with you in the world. You seem to have had personal traumatic experiences with a force that you identified as 'religious' and so now over compensate with a vendetta against everything that bears the title. What ever your problem is, all I can say is get over it. The same goes for whatever vendetta it is you have developed against me, personally; and you know full well that I am not referring specifically to this thread.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

The same goes for whatever vendetta it is you have developed against me, personally

Not that that was specifically directed at me, I do have to apologize myself, and also point out that normally, when you and I come in to contact we are usually only confrontational because we have opposing views.

But normally we're cool if we meet in a non crazy debate thread lol.

Anyways i'm bored with this thread, because it was originally started by someone who was really just trying to tear down something he didn't really care about in the first place. Maybe it would have been better if his thread were, prove to me that religion is more than just faith, or hell, even this is why I have found religion is just a faith, nothing more. because at least then he would be searching for answers, or trying to verify his own, rather than trying to put people down. Although I would personally like it if people would stop living in the past and move towards the future where science and logic can actually help, vs. religious ceremonies, etc. where any help is coincidental or placebo effect, I can't help the way people are, all I can do is try my best to show people what little I know in comparison to the amount of knowledge there is to know in the universe. /sigh.

Btw, not sure how "well versed" in the subjects you are but cheer's to yuh for going out there and studying these things.

I haven't been introduced to Discordianism, Raelianism, and I tried my damnedest to find something to give me some information on Scientology, but lol I can't ever find anything...all i'm left with is to compare it to the funny ass parody on south park.

Lol the Roman Pantheon...well I haven't really studied these guys at all, aside from knowing what everyone knows about them, the names of the planets =D

But I also must point out to you, Xaq, that while you often seem to point out that the religions people are exposed to seem to be "one" religion, or they are angry at a "particular" religion, doesn't mean that they don't have the right to express their views because at this point in age, over half of the world is supposedly of christian or Islamic faith. Ironically atheism comes in third. The only other two major religions are Hinduism and Buddhism that are worth noteing...the rest are rather low on the ranking skill as to my knowledge.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

If you care to prove me wrong, then I welcome the opportunity

Xaq, you haven't given us any specific details about anything that you believe, and you don't respond to any of my points *cough antibiotics cough*.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Listen, At this point you are merely villianizing me and you should just stop. I'm not sure what has gotten you so angry as to need to swear at me as you have in previous posts and I've ignored

I am not trying to villainize you. Nobody's probably even reading this except you and I and Sandform, who else could wade thru this crap? We are arguing about ideas, that's all. I don't mean to be offensive, and I'm not angry at all, far from it. Why should I be angry? I don't even mind the insults; I laugh, it's no big deal. I don't remember swearing exactly, but I wouldn't be surprised it I did--that is a bad habit of mine that I use as a way of emphasizing a point. I shouldn't have done that.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

or much worse, misrepresent what I have said in order to make me sound crazy.

I didn't do that. How can I make you sound crazy?

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

No where have I claimed that most religions are obsolete. No where have I put my own beliefs above anyone else's, and no where have I made direct reference to anything related to my own belief system, and have referred only to the concept of religion and spirituality as a whole.

I guess that's part of the problem, I find what you say to be so vague as to be meaningless. There are no specifics. I'm talking concrete stuff here; I'm not sure what you are talking about except something that you like in a psychological way.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

I'm about tolerance and acceptance and identifying with those around me as equals. All you care about is attempting to tear down the beliefs of others by portraying them as inconsequential, ignorant, and useless despite the overwhelming majority that disagrees with you in the world.

Well...yes... that's the whole point of arguing, right? Why are you here?

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

You seem to have had personal traumatic experiences with a force that you identified as 'religious' and so now over compensate with a vendetta against everything that bears the title.

No, actually I've been very lucky in my life to be relatively free of religious tyranny, compared to a lot of people. I wish everyone had it as good as I have in that regard. Which is part of the reason I argue about it.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

What ever your problem is, all I can say is get over it. The same goes for whatever vendetta it is you have developed against me, personally; and you know full well that I am not referring specifically to this thread.

I have no vendetta against you whatsoever. I thought people argued in here because they liked it. I didn't realize that you would be so traumatized by this. Of course I know what you are referring to, and I already explained and apologized for that by PM--did you not get it? The reason I was being so careful about that and how that whole thing got started was so that you didn't misunderstand me, and I was hoping you could seperate any arguments we have in here from that other issue, but I guess I failed.

Really, Xaq, it's just for fun, and when it isn't fun anymore, let's not do it. I do believe what I've said here, I don't want to give you the impression that I just torment people for fun, I meant every word. However, I don't mean you any ill-will at all, I'm sure you're a great guy, I apologize for using the F word, etc. I've made a New Year's Resolution to quit wasting time arguing in here, so this is a good stopping point.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Nobody's probably even reading this except you and I and Sandform, who else could wade thru this crap?

exactly exactly exactly...

1) faith is not based off logic
2) the sole purpose of religion is to make life more bearable

that being said, you can't debate* whether someone is justified in their faith. why doesn't anyone get this? let ppl believe what they want. it's not like it has any effect on what you, yourself believe. atheists and theists alike can be equally annoying and antagonistic. theists don't have a monopoly on stupidity at all.

*using logic

summary: any organization, regardless of agenda, will have ignorant followers whose actions should not reflect on that organization as a whole.

Originally Posted by Mrs. Jones

\
why doesn't anyone get this? let ppl believe what they want. it's not like it has any effect on what you, yourself believe.

Because I would rather people not have to live in fear that they might have made the wrong choice, and I would definately not want children to fear that they will be subject to victomization by their peers and or others. Most Atheists were passive untill 9/11, atheism was already a large % before then, but there was a explosion of vocalization whenever it finally became a reality that religion DOES hurt society.

being religious does not hurt society. being stupid does, whether one's religious or not.

Originally Posted by Mrs. Jones

let ppl believe what they want. it's not like it has any effect on what you, yourself believe.

Religion has a big influence on how societies function. At worst, this includes killing people who don't participate. This is happening in the world today. It has a huge effect on a very large number of people if they don't themselves "believe".

all/most major religions say it's wrong to kill, no matter what. so killing a non-believer? that's stupidity. not religious-osity (?)

Originally Posted by Mrs. Jones

all/most major religions say it's wrong to kill, no matter what. so killing a non-believer? that's stupidity. not religious-osity (?)

Another person who hasn't read the Bible or the Koran. OK.

thanx for dismissing my entire post by calling me ignorant. that's very helpful.

Originally Posted by Mrs. Jones

thanx for dismissing my entire post by calling me ignorant. that's very helpful.

Further proof that you don't read.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Further proof that you don't read.

further proof that you can't find anything wrong w/ my point, and must instead resort to insulting me.

Originally Posted by Mrs. Jones

further proof that you can't find anything wrong w/ my point, and must instead resort to insulting me.

OK.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

OK.

aw damn!

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

aw damn!

I forgot my New Year's Resolution there for a little bit. But I didn't break it, because it's still December and I'm practicing for when it really goes into effect.

Anybody who wants to know what I think can read my voluminous past postings on the subject. That way it's only insulting to the original person I was talking to. I think.
Happy New Year!

what's the resolution? Not bashing ignants (my suthern draw for "ignorant people")?

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

what's the resolution? Not bashing ignants (my suthern draw for "ignorant people")?

Of course not...I could never give that up completely.

But...I am wasting too much time in here, to the detriment of my dreaming, and I am also getting carpal tunnel syndrome. So I have to have priorities.

It's been fun.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

Another person who hasn't read the Bible or the Koran. OK.

okay in any case...

http://www.unification.net/ws/theme060.htm

edit: i didn't read the whole thing, so i might be totally wrong

Originally Posted by Mrs. Jones

okay in any case...

http://www.unification.net/ws/theme060.htm

edit: i didn't read the whole thing, so i might be totally wrong

Lol do you even know the story of how the ten commandments, which included "thou shalt not kill" occurred? When Moses came down from the mountain to deliver them he again found them being horrible and told them to go from both ends to slay their brothers (I.E. comrades).

This is my favorite thing to bring up. "thou shalt not kill" 10 minutes later Moses says God has commanded that they should all kill each other.

Not to mention the various other area in which murder is not only allowed but told to be a sin not to carry out.

What your failing to understand is that the most of the religion put in the small parts of humanity into them, to attract people to the cause. They are not trying to be morally high grounded.

Originally Posted by Mrs. Jones

okay in any case...

http://www.unification.net/ws/theme060.htm

edit: i didn't read the whole thing, so i might be totally wrong

What you have to understand isbthat the books of main stream religions are very contradictery. Yes God says "thou sahlt not kill" but he also tells us to stone gays, women who are not virgins when they are married, unbelievers, those of different faiths, basically many sins are punished by the town stoning the sinner, or by some other cruel fate. So you see depending on which parts of the book to choose to believe, which isn't easy as your disobeying some rules of God no matter what, you can think certain groups of people is the approved thing to do.