Thread: Does the world need Relegion as a "moral code?"

Originally Posted by juroara

NO ONE - believes in God because they were told to. Every adult has chosen to believe or not to believe based on personal experiences.

Unsubstantiated.

I've heard MANY people describe how they believed in God only because it was hammered into them by family and church. It's only when they leave the church that they actually admit it.

Originally Posted by skysaw

Unsubstantiated.

I've heard MANY people describe how they believed in God only because it was hammered into them by family and church. It's only when they leave the church that they actually admit it.

and how old were they?

teenagers only think they think for themselves. youth thinks they are independent. they have no idea how much they are willingly to believe something, if an adult told them so. youth is dualism. it is both putting blind faith into adults and rejecting adults just for the hell of it.

Now. This is very subtle. Pay careful attention. No adult can be forced to believe anything through indoctrination. Every adult, unlike youth, chooses to believe. ITS A CHOICE.

No amount of hammering can force anyone to believe. If this would true. THEY WOULD HAVE NEVER LEFT CHURCH.

the fact that they left church, means some where inside of them they stopped believing, or never believed. The reason they continued to go to church, was not because it was 'hammered' into to them.

no.

the real reason why they stayed at church for the time being, has to do with their sense of identity. They have identified themselves as Christians. And what are Christians taught? That ATHEISTS ARE BAD. That they are the enemy. So they hold on, out of fear, that if they don't old on, they become the bad thing, the atheist.

it is the fear of letting go of a sense of identity.

it is the fear of being rejected by family and loved ones. it is the fear of disappointing. It is the fear of changing and growing up.

But they CHOOSE to believe. In this case, OUT OF FEAR.

Thats why, it is very easy when they leave for them to turn around and say "THEY BRAINWASHED ME!! I WAS INDOCTRINED!! OH HAVE PITY"

Rather than taking some responsibility, as an adult, and recognizing, no one forced them to do squat. Only the teenager, still dependent on mummy and daddy can complain about indoctrination.

A responsible mature adult would tell you something different. "I believed because I was afraid to say otherwise."

Others, believe for a more personal agenda. It gives them power.

When you meet a hard core fundamentalist, arguing left and right, there is an egotistical reason why they believe. Because it makes them feel better than the average person. They are right. And you are wrong.

Its very easy to point out the hypocrisy of a fundies belief in God. In many ways, in their arguments, they show a lack of faith in God. For example, I have so much faith in God, I feel one day science will prove it. I am so blinded by my faith, I have no fear of science advancing. The same is true for any spiritual believer as myself - were utterly convinced science will lead to God. Because to us, God is reality. We look forward to science advancing!!

However, a fundie shows lack of faith in God when they show a fear of science. Because some where in their little shriveled hearts they know, science will disprove the man in the sky they believe. So why do they continue to believe?

Because it makes them feel bigger, stronger, and more right than you. This isn't comfort. They aren't believing because of the comfort of heaven or Gods love. They believe solely to feel that they have the final say on everything. I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG!

They are true atheists on a god complex.

Originally Posted by juroara

and how old were they?

I don't think that's material, but for the record it cuts across many age groups. I am 44 years old, and most of my peers are within 10 years of my age. It's true that most were much younger when they left (of those I've heard this story from) but what difference does it make?

You first say that NO ONE can be made to believe, but then say no one past a certain age. But belief systems are very hard to break once established. Most of the belief system you hold at 15 is bound to stick with you forever. Only through upset, or dramatic changes in environment or self-revelation will change a core belief.

Even so, many people leave the church later in life, finally breaking free of what was pressed into them.

Now. This is very subtle. Pay careful attention. No adult can be forced to believe anything through indoctrination. Every adult, unlike youth, chooses to believe. ITS A CHOICE.

Thanks for the condensending request for me to pay attention, but that is in no way a "subtle" assumption. Nor is it substantiated in any way I've ever seen. Church-goers don't simply "choose" to stop believing any more than I could choose to stop believing I'm wearing pants today.

No amount of hammering can force anyone to believe. If this would true. THEY WOULD HAVE NEVER LEFT CHURCH.

Monumental failed reasoning. Indoctrination does not mean you can't eventually reason your way out. This is why deprogrammers get paid well.

Thats why, it is very easy when they leave for them to turn around and say "THEY BRAINWASHED ME!! I WAS INDOCTRINED!! OH HAVE PITY"

So it's impossible to trick someone into doing something they don't want to by misrepresenting facts? If that were the case, we'd have no use for the term "con-man."

Originally Posted by skysaw

I agree. From the heart, or from the conscious should work pretty well. Does for me and my family.

A subjective moral code? Well that would suit ones sexual urges. (sarcasm)

Originally Posted by psychology student

A subjective moral code? Well that would suit ones sexual urges. (sarcasm)

I'm sorry you see sex as immoral. I guess you've been taught well.

Skysaw, how tall are you?

Originally Posted by psychology student

Skysaw, how tall are you?

More tall than wide.

How's the weather over there?

Anyway...... do you believe that a subjective morality can function as a competent social moral code? As you earlier suggested.

Originally Posted by psychology student

Anyway...... do you believe that a subjective morality can function as a competent social moral code? As you earlier suggested.

Don't pretend to follow Christian morals when you don't. You just cherry-pick whatever you like in the Bible and pretend the other stuff isn't there. Your morality is just as subjective as everyone else's. There's no alternative to subjective morality so your question is void of meaning.

Ohhhhhhhhhh, getting personal, telling me about my beliefs. Who won the war anyway? (I've always wanted to play that card)

Originally Posted by psychology student

Ohhhhhhhhhh, getting personal, telling me about my beliefs. Who won the war anyway? (I've always wanted to play that card)

What?

Originally Posted by Mark75

If humans can make up religious morals, surely they can make up non-religious ones.

Originally Posted by psychology student

Ohhhhhhhhhh, getting personal, telling me about my beliefs. Who won the war anyway? (I've always wanted to play that card)

Being a Christian, and holding the bible as ultimate truth, why DO you pick and choose then?

Certainly not because God has written another exciting sequel disregarding the Bible?

Yes, Mark does make a good point.

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

Being a Christian, and holding the bible as ultimate truth, why DO you pick and choose then?

Certainly not because God has written another exciting sequel disregarding the Bible?

Christians follow Jesus.

But Jesus died 2k+ years ago, and you still are supposed to hold the bible as fact.

Why pick and choose? And instead of dodging the question behind semantics, try answering it.

Originally Posted by psychology student

Christians follow Jesus.

So... you just disregard everything else the bible says?

And of course you are also in favor of sending gift certificates to Muslim extremists because Jesus advises us to "love our enemies", yes?

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

But Jesus died 2k+ years ago, and you still are supposed to hold the bible as fact.

argumentum ad novitatem

Originally Posted by psychology student

Anyway...... do you believe that a subjective morality can function as a competent social moral code? As you earlier suggested.

Yes.

Originally Posted by psychology student

argumentum ad novitatem

argumentum ad horrible. Seriously, let me lay this out for you:

Seismosaur made two statements, separated by a comma (,):

1. "Jesus dies 2k+ years ago" (true)

2. "and you still are [as a believing Christian] supposed to hold the bible as fact." (true)

Now where do you find ad novitatem? All he was saying is that Christianity maintains that the Bible is the word of god (or at least inspired by his noodliness) and is to be taken as truth, especially concerning the description of the life of Jesus.

You say you follow Jesus, I say open your damn bible because that's where you'll find out stuff about him.

Oh ok Korritke. Now I understand.

Originally Posted by Korittke

comma (,):

Looks like an asshole to me.

Did you get that from a film?

Originally Posted by psychology student

Did you get that from a film?

No.

I reckon the movie industry is still far from implementing ASCII jokes. Unfortunately.