Thread: Convince me.

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

Yes they are.

They are vague because you can take either one a million different ways.

If you cannot see that then you are doomed to see a singl eside of anything.

We can agree to disagree, here.

Originally Posted by Maestro

We can agree to disagree, here.

Sure we can.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

Einstein said it even more better:

Einstein stated an opinion-- I stated a truth.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

Einstein said it even more better:

For a start, "even more better" isn't grammatically correct.
Next, that's the second time today you've posted that quote out of context. He isn't referring to 'religion' as popes and bishops, churches and mosques. He's referring to 'religion' as a sense of awe and wonderment about the universe. His kind of religion (Spinoza's God). It has very little to do with spirituality and a lot less to do with the religion that you think it's talking about.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

Einstein said it even more better

I prefer this quote of his:

Originally Posted by Albert Einstein

The word 'God' is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.
No interpretation no matter how subtle can change this.

Try and take that one out of context.

BOOYah!

Originally Posted by Xei

I prefer this quote of his:

Try and take that one out of context.

You just did actually.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly."

No personal God

So, the quick answer to the question is that Einstein did not believe in a personal God. It is however, interesting how he arrived at that conclusion. In developing the theory of relativity, Einstein realized that the equations led to the conclusion that the universe had a beginning. He didn't like the idea of a beginning, because he thought one would have to conclude that the universe was created by God. So, he added a cosmological constant to the equation to attempt to get rid of the beginning. He said this was one of the worst mistakes of his life. Of course, the results of Edwin Hubble confirmed that the universe was expanding and had a beginning at some point in the past. So, Einstein became a deist - a believer in an impersonal creator God:

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."

Einstein definately believed in God.
(he didn't believe in a personal God however, but that was nothing but a specification of the definition of which God he does believe in)


People who claim Einstein didn't believe in God only know half of the truth. You take quotes out of context because you don't even know the context. And then you go claim I'm the one who takes them out of context?

I don't mind that you're wrong, but I do mind that you're so extremely convinced of your ignorance. You do not doubt any word you say and you won't give any argumentation or research to back up your claims.

Errr... If I'm not mistaken, Spinoza's god is a pantheistic god (i.e. no god), it's basically the "god" of atheism.


#EDIT#

According to wikipedia, Spinoza teached Naturalistic pantheism:

Naturalistic pantheism is a form of pantheism that holds that the universe, although possibly unconscious and non-sentient as a whole, is a meaningful focus for secular spirituality and mystical fulfillment. Accordingly, Nature is seen as being God only in a non-traditional, impersonal sense. Therefore, naturalistic pantheism is also known as "impersonal pantheism" and "impersonal absolutism".

So no, Xei didn't take the quote out of context, and Einstein didn't believe in a god.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Errr... If I'm not mistaken, Spinoza's god is a pantheistic god (i.e. no god), it's basically the "god" of atheism.


#EDIT#

According to wikipedia, Spinoza teached Naturalistic pantheism:




So no, Xei didn't take the quote out of context, and Einstein didn't believe in a god.

Wow.
You claim "Spinoza's God" is "no God".
I say, Spinoza's God is a God. Obviously, I don't see how anyone else could think differently? Or isn't Einstein allowed to define his own God?

You claim pantheism equals atheism. You claim Einstein did not believe in a God. But at the same time you claim Spinoza teached Naturalistic pantheism, which is the believe in a certain God.

Einstein was a believer and he believed in God. Obviously.

You even go so far claiming Atheism has a God! You actually just gave atheism a God just to claim that Einstein was an atheist!

Spinoza's god is a pantheistic god it's basically the "god" of atheism.

Atheism is actually evolving into a theism according to you?

Claiming atheism has a God must be one of the most retarded claims I have ever read in my life. Atheism litterally means anti-God.

In early Ancient Greek, the adjective atheos (ἄθεος, from the privative ἀ- + θεός "god") meant "godless".

In English, the term atheism was derived from the French athéisme in about 1587.[10] The term atheist (from Fr. athée), in the sense of "one who denies or disbelieves the existence of God"

For fuck sake...

What do you think the quotation marks around god were for? It was a figure of speech, genius.

Here's a definition for you, common sense:

:sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts

While the word god by itself is very vague, there are still limits as to how you can define it. A human isn't god, a fork isn't god, the celestial teapot isn't god, the universe isn't god.

The universe has a name, and it isn't god. Why attach a meaningless word to something already named?

So whats your point? Einstein didn't believe in a God? Do you truly believe that?

To me it's obvious Einstein believed in a God, but he doesnt believe in the retarded personal God you are speaking of.

Why are you trying so hard to defend Atheism? You even go so far as making up a God for atheism. Einstein was obviously not an atheist.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

You even go so far as making up a God for atheism.

Sigh...

Man created god, not the other way around.

Einstein believed in god, just not a creator god. He said so himself.

Einstein accepted and treasured mystery. He wanted no part of the atheist/agnostic/theist trinity.

People who claim Einstein didn't believe in God only know half of the truth. You take quotes out of context because you don't even know the context. And then you go claim I'm the one who takes them out of context?

Don't be ridiculous, how could my quote possibly be out of context? Einstein specifically went out of his way to make it completely clear that what he said was absolute and no interpretation could change that! And there you go, trying to bend it to your opinion, completely disregarding him.

As I've said before (not sure if it was this thread), Einstein always denied that there was a 'God', using my previous general definition of 'a supernatural being'. All he worshipped was the mystery and substance of reality, logic and mathematics.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

So whats your point? Einstein didn't believe in a God? Do you truly believe that?

To me it's obvious Einstein believed in a God, but he doesnt believe in the retarded personal God you are speaking of.

Why are you trying so hard to defend Atheism? You even go so far as making up a God for atheism. Einstein was obviously not an atheist.

Einstein was a pantheist.


There is absolutely nothing supernatural in his view. He uses "God" as a poetic term to describe the majesty of the universe. But the universe is all he is describing. Nothing conscious or supernatural in anyway, just a term to describe the workings of nature.



Let's remind ourselves of the terminology. A theist believes in a supernatural intelligence who, in addition to his main work of creating the universe in the first place, is still around to oversee and influence the subsequent fate of his initial creation. In many theistic belief systems, the deity is intimately involved in human affairs. He answers prayers; forgives or punishes sins; intervenes in the world by performing miracles; frets about good and bad deeds, and knows when we do them (or even think of doing them). A deist, too, believes in a supernatural intelligence, but one whose activities were confined to setting up the laws that govern the universe in the first place. The deist God never intervenes thereafter, and certainly has no specific interest in human affairs. Pantheists don't believe in a supernatural God at all, but use the word God as a nonsupernatural synonym for Nature, or for the Universe, or for the lawfulness that governs its workings. Deists differ from theists in that their God does not answer prayers, is not interested in sins or confessions, does not read our thoughts and does not intervene with capricious miracles. Deists differ from pantheists in that the deist God is some kind of cosmic intelligence, rather than the pantheist's metaphoric or poetic synonym for the laws of the universe. Pantheism is sexed-up atheism. Deism is watered-down theism.

There is every reason to think that famous Einsteinisms like 'God is subtle but he is not malicious' or 'He does not play dice' or 'Did God have a choice in creating the Universe?' are pantheistic, not deistic, and certainly not theistic. 'God does not play dice' should be translated as 'Randomness does not lie at the heart of all things.' 'Did God have a choice in creating the Universe?' means 'Could the universe have begun in any other way?' Einstein was using 'God' in a purely metaphorical, poetic sense. So is Stephen Hawking, and so are most of those physicists who occasionally slip into the language of religious metaphor.




TL;DR: this quote sums his belief up :

"If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. "

Can anyone tell me why I should care what Einstien believed?

Originally Posted by 27

Can anyone tell me why I should care what Einstien believed?

Because for something to be true it is entirely relevant what other people think about it: disagreeing with Einstein on just one issue means you are an idiot and agreeing with Stalin on just one issues means you're an evil fascist Communist-Nazi.

Because Einstein was... Einstein?

One of the greatest physcists, mathemeticians, and scientists of our time?

If not the greatest? So his opinion is valued.

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

Because Einstein was... Einstein?

One of the greatest physcists, mathemeticians, and scientists of our time?

If not the greatest? So his opinion is valued.

Smart people can be wrong youknow.

I value his opinion on physics but I don't think he's any more of an authority than you or me when it comes to God.

Hehe.

Why is it sideways?

Originally Posted by 27

I value his opinion on physics but I don't think he's any more of an authority than you or me when it comes to God.

If he is no more or less worth asking than anyone else here then there should be no problem with posthumously asking his opinion, by your own reasoning. Also, it's usually the pro-God side that drags ol' fuzzy hair out of the ground to bat for their team by quoting him out of context. And Darwin. And Hawking (although he's still alive).

Originally Posted by Korittke

Smart people can be wrong youknow.

Sure they can.

Originally Posted by 27

I value his opinion on physics but I don't think he's any more of an authority than you or me when it comes to God.

And that is your opinion.

Originally Posted by Alextanium

Why is it sideways?



If he is no more or less worth asking than anyone else here then there should be no problem with posthumously asking his opinion, by your own reasoning. Also, it's usually the pro-God side that drags ol' fuzzy hair out of the ground to bat for their team by quoting him out of context. And Darwin. And Hawking (although he's still alive).

I think Einstein would have a problem with one side or both using his words to support his words to support their argument. I don’t care if Einstein was a theist or not, it doesn’t make either side right.