Thread: A challenge for the Atheist

Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

Challenge this. I believe that human beings are capable of doing moral, right things without having to be controlled by fear of punishment or hope of reward. I also believe that all humans have a right to free will, ESPECIALLY when it comes to their own minds.

Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

That's true, but fear of punishment can also come from other people, like priests, the pope, or anybody really, as a form of manipulation and control. Unless you don't let them control you, which reiterates it all coming from within.

What are you so afraid of?
It's okay, whatever it is, don't let it get the best of you.
God never gives us anything we can't handle.

I'm not afraid of anything. I just hate how rotten and horrible organized religion is, and how it stunts people's ability to think and grow and massively screws up the whole world in general. Just because I hate Bush doesn't mean I'm afraid of him.

Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

Just because I hate Bush doesn't mean I'm afraid of him.

There would be nothing to be afraid of now any way. Bush is out of office. Now you can hate Obama for the war in Iraq.

Why in the hell would I blame Obama for a war he never started AND never voted for in the first place?

Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

I just hate how rotten and horrible organized religion is, and how it stunts people's ability to think and grow and massively screws up the whole world in general.

I totally agree withyou on that, but somethings just aren't worth dwelling on...

I agree too with those who believe on focusing not on the problem, but on the solution...(and if you don't really see a rational one, move on, someone else will figure it out)

Originally Posted by Photolysis

Alright, I'll bite. Tell me what your beliefs are exactly though (there are so many sects of Christianity and so many interpretations of said sects that trying to second guess your exact beliefs would be foolish).

For instance, do you believe an all loving, knowing, powerful, etc god created the universe and everyone in it, gave us free will, etc?

Do you believe in the story of Adam and Eve? And that Jesus died for our sins? That homosexuality is a sin? That disbelief is punished with hell? That hell exists?

Just give me a brief overview of your core beliefs.

Free Will is a touchy subject, but I believe in a Freedom of choice, we just don't have a 'free will' because God already knows what is planned out for us. It's kind of hard to explain, basically we have a choice. We have a choice to do bad, or good, at all times. We have a choice to accept or reject Christ, but we aren't self sufficient. We aren't "free" in that sense.

Homosexuals argue that they did not make a conscious decision to be that way, so it must be natural. They are born that way-just as all of us are born with a sin nature and sinful desires (Ephesians 2:1-3). Tell them that it is natural for them, and for all of us, to be tempted to do things that God says are wrong. In the same way, pedophiles and adulterers (alcoholics, drug addicts, etc.) don't make a conscious decision to “choose” that self-destructive lifestyle; they simply give in to their sinful desires. However, although sin is natural for unbelievers, that doesn't mean God wants them to remain that way. God can set them free from their sinful nature (Romans 7:23-8:2), give them new desires (Ephesians 4:22-24), and help them withstand temptations (1 Corinthians 10:13).
Possible Response: "I too was born with homosexual tendencies… I was also born with a tendency to lie, steal, commit adultery and fornicate. It's called 'sin' and it's in every one of us." You can then proceed to use the law to awaken the conscience.

The Bible tells us that the Moral Law was made for homosexuals (see 1 Timothy 1:8-10). If you use the Law when you witness to them you won't even have to touch on their “sexual orientation,” and therefore be accused of hating homosexuals. The Law will show him that he is damned, despite his sexual preference. When he finds a place of true repentance and faith in Jesus, God will take away his unclean spirit and give him a new heart with new desires

Someone once asked me, can gays go to Heaven? No sin is greater than another, so why does it matter if I lie or am gay? It's still sin.

A gay or homosexual person can accept Christ, just as an alcoholic, a drug addict, or a mass-murderer can accept Christ. Jesus' offer of salvation is open to everyone.

Your question is whether someone can accept Christ, not change his lifestyle, and still go to heaven. The Bible teaches that if someone has truly accepted Christ into his life, nothing can keep him out of heaven. In John 10:28, Christ says of Christians.

“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of My hand.”

You can not be a real Christian and be homosexual, because you are choosing to disobey God and not trying to repent for it. If you were Christian, God would set you free from those homosexual desires like he would for any other sin. Just thought I would like to put that out there.

Oh, and on a side note, I agree 100% that organized religion is just one big load of fail. I personally can not stand it, I believe in the virtues of Christ and my saviour, I don't need to hang on a church to get me to heaven. I'll go, for aid, but that's it. Most organized religion has been reduced to greedy men and women who want to steal people's money in the name of Religion. A shame.

Fruscainte, how do you truly pick and choose which bible verses to abide by? Homosexuals, according to the bible, ought to be murdered along with those that work on the sabbath.

Now, usually there is where someone says that this is old testament dribble. So, let us focus on things in the new testament. If you are to say that morals ought to be derived from the bible and followed adamantly, then you also ought to follow the following:

Kill all the children of a woman who commits adultery.
Revelation 2:22-23

Show that you are a man of God by burning 102 men to death.
2 Kings 1:9-12

If a child should make fun of a bald man, murder the children by unleashing bears on them.
2 Kings 2:23-24

Kill non-believers as it brings peace
2 Chronicles 15:15

And the list goes on.

So, how are you able to abide by this one passage of the bible for your moral decision and not others? Do you think that children should be mauled by bears for making fun of bald men..? Because, if you make your decisions based on the bible that gays out to be killed, then you also should think this.

~

Originally Posted by O'nus

Fruscainte, how do you truly pick and choose which bible verses to abide by? Homosexuals, according to the bible, ought to be murdered along with those that work on the sabbath.

Now, usually there is where someone says that this is old testament dribble. So, let us focus on things in the new testament. If you are to say that morals ought to be derived from the bible and followed adamantly, then you also ought to follow the following:

Kill all the children of a woman who commits adultery.
Revelation 2:22-23

Show that you are a man of God by burning 102 men to death.
2 Kings 1:9-12

If a child should make fun of a bald man, murder the children by unleashing bears on them.
2 Kings 2:23-24

Kill non-believers as it brings peace
2 Chronicles 15:15

And the list goes on.

So, how are you able to abide by this one passage of the bible for your moral decision and not others? Do you think that children should be mauled by bears for making fun of bald men..? Because, if you make your decisions based on the bible that gays out to be killed, then you also should think this.

~

That's how the Christian Church has survived throughout the years, pick and choose. Otherwise the christian sects would be even more crazy and overbearing than they already are.

Don't you love how in one part of the Bible, murder is bad but in another their telling you to kill non-believers.

It's hilarious. The bible should be burned and thrown away by the Christian Church themselves and come to terms with their Spiritual Book really being full of nonsense written by Dark Age men who have issues with anyone who isn't Male and like them.

And I personally think, Jesus who had a message had it torn and shattered.. I don't think he wanted people gawking over him and putting bumper stickers that say JESUS. He wanted peace.

All that needs to be removed from the Bible is obviously the political BS; the introduced dogma. There is clearly no relationship between this and Jesus' words, but more of a relationship to their originating ecclesiastical usurpation.

Originally Posted by O'nus

Fruscainte, how do you truly pick and choose which bible verses to abide by? Homosexuals, according to the bible, ought to be murdered along with those that work on the sabbath.

Now, usually there is where someone says that this is old testament dribble. So, let us focus on things in the new testament. If you are to say that morals ought to be derived from the bible and followed adamantly, then you also ought to follow the following:

Kill all the children of a woman who commits adultery.
Revelation 2:22-23

Show that you are a man of God by burning 102 men to death.
2 Kings 1:9-12

If a child should make fun of a bald man, murder the children by unleashing bears on them.
2 Kings 2:23-24

Kill non-believers as it brings peace
2 Chronicles 15:15

And the list goes on.

So, how are you able to abide by this one passage of the bible for your moral decision and not others? Do you think that children should be mauled by bears for making fun of bald men..? Because, if you make your decisions based on the bible that gays out to be killed, then you also should think this.

~

Revelation is a book of the endtime, it's a book that is telling the end of the world and killing (Judgementing) of millions, if not billions of people. I hardly think that is a real viable book to use on 'hey it says to kill these guys!'

Nevertheless! It says clearly in the New Testament that all the Old Testament laws and traditions were to be forgotten, for the new laws. Things like...the 10 commandments were kept in the 'wrong things to do' catagory.

Now you're taking that WAY out of context. It wasn't the fact that they were making fun of the bald man that God struck the kids down. It's the fact that they were mocking, berating, and disrespecting one of God's greatest prophets.

Oh, burning 102 people to death. It's not showing that you're a man of God by that. They were going to KILL Elijah. Take him in, kill him, etc. And they asked, "Prove you are a man of God!" and something along those lines. So God showed them quite well, and after the first two times the leader learned his lesson not to try to take God on.

Do I think children should be mauled by bears? I dont know, should men be sent off to war, taken captive, tortured, shot, and their bodies dropped off in the middle of nowhere? Should people be murdered who dont deserve it? Should this happen? Should that not happen? The list goes on.

It's all a matter of sin. That's all it comes down to, those people disrespected God, they tried to take him on, they disrespected his prophets and guess what, that wasn't God speaking, it was people speaking mostly that disrespect was a capital offense back then.

You know what the problem is? People take the Bible way out of context, and they think that it contradicts because of that. "HE KILLED CHILDREN, GOD IS EVIL"

Guess what, we're evil. We all deserve hell, yes, even children. No one is innocent, I know, it's a shame. I personally believe that young children who have Christian parents and die go to the Heaven. However Atheists and such who have babies that die, they don't. That's just me.

Adam screwed up, and therefore we all must punish. We are all not innocent, because we are all inbedded with the temptation to sin. Those kids? Yeah, they were old enough to know right from wrong. They weren't 5 by the way, they were teenagers most believe. 12-21. They knew right from wrong.

Even so, they have sinned conciously, they knew what they were doing was wrong and they did it anyway. So guess what, despite how 'innocent' they might look, they deserved Hell. Just like the rest of us do, except God gives us a gift, a gift of Heaven. That's why his son came, lived the perfect life, and died the most painful death ever created in history for us.

-quote-And I personally think, Jesus who had a message had it torn and shattered.. I don't think he wanted people gawking over him and putting bumper stickers that say JESUS. He wanted peace.
-end quote-

Yes, I agree with that 100%

Would you suggest that fags fuck stoves and wooden chairs instead of eachother? Clearly the alternative to drinking booze is not drinking booze. But there's no real alternative to fucking because the desire to fancy bums is something you're born with so you can't get rid of it and not fucking probably leads to you raping a child care institution and then blowing your head off. How do you respond to that?

Originally Posted by Fruscainte

Revelation is a book of the endtime, it's a book that is telling the end of the world and killing (Judgementing) of millions, if not billions of people. I hardly think that is a real viable book to use on 'hey it says to kill these guys!'

Nevertheless! It says clearly in the New Testament that all the Old Testament laws and traditions were to be forgotten, for the new laws. Things like...the 10 commandments were kept in the 'wrong things to do' catagory.

Chapters from the New Testament:
Matthew
Mark
Luke
John
Acts
Romans
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians
1 Timothy
2 Timothy
Titus
Philemon
Hebrews
James
1 Peter
2 Peter
1 John
2 John
3 John
Jude
Revelation

Now you're taking that WAY out of context. It wasn't the fact that they were making fun of the bald man that God struck the kids down. It's the fact that they were mocking, berating, and disrespecting one of God's greatest prophets.

If I say, "Fuck Jesus" - should I be mauled by bears then? Are you saying, then, that any mockery of prophets ought to be punished by mauling by bears?

Oh, burning 102 people to death. It's not showing that you're a man of God by that. They were going to KILL Elijah. Take him in, kill him, etc. And they asked, "Prove you are a man of God!" and something along those lines. So God showed them quite well, and after the first two times the leader learned his lesson not to try to take God on.

By burning people to death.

Do I think children should be mauled by bears? I dont know, should men be sent off to war, taken captive, tortured, shot, and their bodies dropped off in the middle of nowhere? Should people be murdered who dont deserve it? Should this happen? Should that not happen? The list goes on.

According to the bible - yes. Need references? Primarily see Deuteronomy.

Think I am taking things out of context and bias because I am Atheist? See Pope Urban's speech starting the crusades referencing justifications for killing and slaughtering people from the Bible himself - old and new testament:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/urban2-5vers.html

It's all a matter of sin. That's all it comes down to, those people disrespected God, they tried to take him on, they disrespected his prophets and guess what, that wasn't God speaking, it was people speaking mostly that disrespect was a capital offense back then.

That's not what we're talking about though - you're using one bible reference for a moral decision and not others - why? You can't do that and say that you are following the bibles morals. If you pick and choose what you like out of the bible, then you're following your own set of morals while ostensibly following scripture.

You know what the problem is? People take the Bible way out of context, and they think that it contradicts because of that. "HE KILLED CHILDREN, GOD IS EVIL"

I didn't say God is evil. Pay attention.

Guess what, we're evil. We all deserve hell, yes, even children. No one is innocent, I know, it's a shame. I personally believe that young children who have Christian parents and die go to the Heaven. However Atheists and such who have babies that die, they don't. That's just me.

Irrelevant to topic. Stay on course.

Adam screwed up, and therefore we all must punish. We are all not innocent, because we are all inbedded with the temptation to sin. Those kids? Yeah, they were old enough to know right from wrong. They weren't 5 by the way, they were teenagers most believe. 12-21. They knew right from wrong.

And so they were punished by bear mauling and you support this? Are you saying that it is good to have adults mauled by bears if they ridicule a prophet?

Even so, they have sinned conciously, they knew what they were doing was wrong and they did it anyway. So guess what, despite how 'innocent' they might look, they deserved Hell. Just like the rest of us do, except God gives us a gift, a gift of Heaven. That's why his son came, lived the perfect life, and died the most painful death ever created in history for us.

More digression. However, you are saying that conscious sin is now different from "passive" sin because we are all evil already anyway. I am not debating this - I am just talking about your moral decision process in regards to the bible and you are trying to change the topic.

-quote-And I personally think, Jesus who had a message had it torn and shattered.. I don't think he wanted people gawking over him and putting bumper stickers that say JESUS. He wanted peace.
-end quote-

Yes, I agree with that 100%

You're right, his message was torn and shattered. Nothing was recorded about him till 100 years after his death and then manipulated and translated by over (literally) thousands of people. It has gone through multiple languages and multiple people - ever hear of the telephone game? Not too mention the political agenda at the time? (ie. think of why there might be a political reason why most Christian holidays are amalgamated with paganism..?).

All this while a mere man, Jesus, was likely just a cool guy dispensing good values and ethics and then a bunch of yahoo's, like usual, play him up to be a God. Whether or not he is or not, doesn't matter to me, but the point is I agree - his message, true or not, was shattered and contrived and edited beyond anything more in the history of the world.

~

Originally Posted by Serkat

Would you suggest that fags fuck stoves and wooden chairs instead of eachother? Clearly the alternative to drinking booze is not drinking booze. But there's no real alternative to fucking because the desire to fancy bums is something you're born with so you can't get rid of it and not fucking probably leads to you raping a child care institution and then blowing your head off. How do you respond to that?

We are born with a tendancy to sin. "You can't get rid of it" that's just wrong my friend. When you accept the Holy Spirit, and Christ into your life just like he takes away your wants to sin in terms of thievery, lieing, and in more severe cases, murder, and molestation he takes away your want to disobey him homosexually.

Originally Posted by Fruscainte

We are born with a tendancy to sin. "You can't get rid of it" that's just wrong my friend. When you accept the Holy Spirit, and Christ into your life just like he takes away your wants to sin in terms of thievery, lieing, and in more severe cases, murder, and molestation he takes away your want to disobey him homosexually.

Tons of Christians do all of those things. Even priests.

I am curious about something. Suppose Richard Simmons becomes a major Christian today. What would he be acting like tomorrow? Would he act the way he has for years but desire to have sex with women? Do you really think that is a realistic concept?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jRcTYdrmb8

Actually yes, I do. However I doubt Richard Simmons would do such a thing.

Originally Posted by Fruscainte

Actually yes, I do. However I doubt Richard Simmons would do such a thing.

What would he act like if he became a Christian? Would he suddenly develop a masculine sounding voice? Or would it be that he would suddenly want to have sex with women and the way he talks is not at all connected to his sexual preference?

When you accept the Holy Spirit, and Christ into your life just like he takes away your wants to sin in terms of thievery, lieing, and in more severe cases, murder, and molestation he takes away your want to disobey him homosexually.

You are a repulsive, brainwashed, ignorant cretin.

Believe in Christ and all the murder you committed will be forgiven my child!
Forget having to put effort into behaving... Kill and repent!

And the angel of the lord led me
Into the belly of the holy mother
A chamber black as pitch
But I felt no fear, only comfort,

For I was as a child in the womb
And she begged me
"Hear through yonder portal
Which looked upon the heavens,
And behold! a morning angel"

[Hal-le-lu-jah!]

She ascended slowly from far beyond the horizon,
Her light like a heavenly finger pointing the way
And on yonder wall she traced for me a path
Which led me five directions, eight winters to east,

[Hal-le-lu-jah!]

And behold!
As my feet landed firmly
Upon the vital winter of the second storm
There appeared before me a heavenly star

[Hal-le-lu-jah!]

A holy virgin, the bringer of life and breath
And she spoke unto me saying
"Fear not the movement of the heavens above or the earth below
For change is what we are, my child.

[Hal-le-lu-jah!]

Righteous are those
Who look up and sway with the wind,
Who look down and dance with the shifting of the soil,
Who swim with the movement of the tides

[Hal-le-lu-jah!]

Who seek the truth around them
And discover that we are
And have always been in paradise.
The reflections of heaven on earth. Amen!'

[Hal-le-lu-jah!]

And she spoke again saying
"Know, my child,
That there is no devil seeking
To cause guilt nor harm to men.

[Hal-le-lu-jah!]

No evil, save blind faith, ignorance,
And the desire for the unprepared
To blame others for the devastation
Left in the wake of change

[Hal-le-lu-jah!]

Change, my child
Change is in the heavens
Change is on this earth
Change is all around us

[Hal-le-lu-jah!]

And if we
Are reflections of the divine
We must roll with these changes,
For we are these changes.

[Hal-le-lu-jah!]

Eyes wide open,
We must look upon
The heavens as a mirror.
Wide awake, aware, deeply breathing

[Hal-le-lu-jah!]

And when the shit comes down, my child,
You will be there,
A true and holy survivor
To inherit the kingdom of god.

[Hal-le-lu-jah!]

You will rise above the rumbles of the unprepared
To greet the new day,
To drink from the sweet fruit of the vine,
The water of life, the blood of the risen Christ, my child.'

[Je-ho-vah! Yah-weh!]

'Go now, son,
Tell them all.
The ignorant, the blind paw by dogma,
Blinded by faith, the doubters, the nay sayers.

[Je-ho-vah! Yah-weh!]

Tell them all, child,
They can not see
The kingdom of God,
They can not see paradise
Unfold before them

[Je-ho-vah! Yah-weh!]

They can not drink
From the chalice
Which holds the blood of Christ,
The water of life,
Until they get right with Jesus.

[Je-ho-vah! Yah-weh!]

Until they get right with Jesus.
It's always gonna be
Sour grapes with you, boy,
Until you get right with Jesus. Amen!

[Je-ho-vah! Yah-weh!]

This is more like "a challenge for the theist."

"Where is the Truth in all this?"


What Jesus said is the most important.