Thread: A challenge for the Atheist

Alright, I'll bite. Tell me what your beliefs are exactly though (there are so many sects of Christianity and so many interpretations of said sects that trying to second guess your exact beliefs would be foolish).

For instance, do you believe an all loving, knowing, powerful, etc god created the universe and everyone in it, gave us free will, etc?

Do you believe in the story of Adam and Eve? And that Jesus died for our sins? That homosexuality is a sin? That disbelief is punished with hell? That hell exists?

Just give me a brief overview of your core beliefs.

alright, here goes:
nothing wrong with gay people, theyre cool.
i dont believe in the story of adam and eve, i think it was some kind of synonym, or simply just a story that the bible tells.
im not sure hell exists, i wish i knew, but i dont think there is any way of finding out besides asking god.
i believe jesus died for our sins, yes, and that he existed, and that he either did many miracles, or they were stories told by the bible so we could learn from them.
im not sure how to define free will, i dont really think we have free will right now, i think theres a much higher stage than this, obviously referring to heaven, where we can do anything, more then any mind on earth can comprehend.
all loving, knowing, powerful god? yup!

anything else?

Yes: do you believe that those who do not believe in your god, or live by the principals set out in your religious beliefs will be punished in some way (not necessarily by hell)?

Are those that live good moral lives who do not abide by the beliefs of your religion punished?

That's the only information I think I need to answer your question.

no, not nessecarily, i think that the whole "loving" part, is just that, loving.
i dont think i belive in hell, or the devil, satan, whatever, im not even sure the end of human kind will ever happen.
as for punishment besides hell, nope.

Alright, here is my answer:

Short answer, not that much. You don't spout the "LIVE BY MY SPECIFIC SET OF RULES OR YOU WILL BE SENT TO HELL TO BE TORTURED FOREVER" crap, and appear to be tolerant of other people's beliefs and respect them, and for that your beliefs get my respect.

The only problem morally I have with your beliefs is that (by your beliefs) God created our very flawed species, and therefore is responsible for all our faults by definition. Having to send Jesus to die for "sins" he is ultimately responsible for is silly. A) Being all forgiving he should forgive them anyway without needing to send someone down to die for them, and B) this promotes a feeling of inferiority and guilt amongst some people. That they have to apologise for being born. Even if you do not feel this was yourself, it does have this effect on some people.

I also object to someone who creates evil but refuses to use their power to stop it being labelled moral. If we humans allow unnecessary suffering to occur when we can stop it, we are (rightly) considered immoral and bad people. If we have a pet that is suffering in agonising pain for example, we are condemned if we don't take it to a vet to be euthanised.

Also, I think faith as a belief system is bad, not only because it can be readily hijacked for evil uses, but because it is limiting. Faith by definition is belief without a reason to believe, and if we applied it to many aspects of our lives we would be called insane and people would hopefully put us right. It stops people from considering new ideas (when there is a reason to consider them).

Ultimately though, these things aside, I don't see any real problems with your beliefs. The same does not apply to a lot of religious beliefs though.

Originally Posted by Avalon Jr.

no, not nessecarily, i think that the whole "loving" part, is just that, loving.
i dont think i belive in hell, or the devil, satan, whatever, im not even sure the end of human kind will ever happen.
as for punishment besides hell, nope.

You know, I'm a fellow christian so I hate to say this but I feel I must. It sounds like you've taken all the warm and fuzzy parts of the faith, decided to believe in those and ignored any part that might compell you to higher standards such as Sin or hell. It seems like you've looked at all the scary parts and said, "I can do whatever I want, they don't exsist." Your definition of God sounds like someone on to many antideppresents with no real feeling or thought.

Thats all I felt like saying, I apologize if I have offended you, this is why we have diffrent sects of the faith.

Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

You know, I'm a fellow christian so I hate to say this but I feel I must. It sounds like you've taken all the warm and fuzzy parts of the faith, decided to believe in those and ignored any part that might compell you to higher standards such as Sin or hell. It seems like you've looked at all the scary parts and said, "I can do whatever I want, they don't exsist." Your definition of God sounds like someone on to many antideppresents with no real feeling or thought.

Thats all I felt like saying, I apologize if I have offended you, this is why we have diffrent sects of the faith.

Is it Hell that compels you to higher standards? It would seem to me what should compel you to higher standards would be the fact that when you do things right society benefits.

Besides, lucid boy, every form of Christianity has done the same thing, its called cherry picking, and you've done it too, so there really is no need for you, a fellow cherry picker, to bother with calling him/her out on it. In fact almost everyone in any religion cherry picks. For Christianity there really is no way to not cherry pick anyway since there are so many contradictions...

and ignored any part that might compell you to higher standards such as Sin or hell.

What's more moral, a person who acts kindly because he believes it's the right thing to do, or a person who acts that way out of fear?

How is fear of punishment compelling anyone to higher standards? All they are doing is taking a set of actions out of fear, for their own selfish benefit. And you have the audacity to claim you have moral superiority...

Your type of influence and practice can be direct reason why so many different religious groups of people form many distinct units within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice. > Religious sects.
Also it is very possible why these very actions give rise to atheism itself. I think it would be natural to question some of the parables in most religious doctrines. Then when you see these same religious people continuously separating to fit their own needs and desires makes it seem even less credible.
You think this, you think that. What are you really thinking?
With what you have said, what are YOU really thinking?

Originally Posted by Photolysis

What's more moral, a person who acts kindly because he believes it's the right thing to do, or a person who acts that way out of fear?
How is fear of punishment compelling anyone to higher standards?

There is a big difference here.
What do you think punishment and fear are for? It is for control.
Some people if they felt they would not ever be held accountable for their actions may live an entirely different lifestyle. It is their own fear of the repercussions that keep their actions in check.

you know what i find to be funny about this huge debate of wether god and jesus and the spirit and hell and heaven exist is there are two things that can happen.

i believe in god and all, and when someone decides to say god doesn't exist it's okay cause this is what wil happen, either i am wrong, and there is not a god and i lived a fulfilling life, without the alcohol, and drugs , and no one gets to say i told you so cause there would be nothing after death, or i could be right and god does exist and i am saved and lived a fulfilling life and i don't get screwed. either way i will be fine. so that really should be what it comes down to.

Originally Posted by aorozco

you know what i find to be funny about this huge debate of wether god and jesus and the spirit and hell and heaven exist is there are two things that can happen.

i believe in god and all, and when someone decides to say god doesn't exist it's okay cause this is what wil happen, either i am wrong, and there is not a god and i lived a fulfilling life, without the alcohol, and drugs , and no one gets to say i told you so cause there would be nothing after death, or i could be right and god does exist and i am saved and lived a fulfilling life and i don't get screwed. either way i will be fine. so that really should be what it comes down to.

Aren't you forgetting a third a major point of this topic. Hell, the devil, punishment, etc.?
Most religions do not believe that there is nothing after death.

Originally Posted by Howie

Aren't you forgetting a third a major point of this topic. Hell, the devil, punishment, etc.?
Most religions do not believe that there is nothing after death.

uuummm i mentioned hell.
but i wouldn't be worried. that's what i'm saying. no matter how it rurns out i live a good life and as i believe an amazing life in heaven.

Originally Posted by aorozco

you know what i find to be funny about this huge debate of wether god and jesus and the spirit and hell and heaven exist is there are two things that can happen.

i believe in god and all, and when someone decides to say god doesn't exist it's okay cause this is what wil happen, either i am wrong, and there is not a god and i lived a fulfilling life, without the alcohol, and drugs , and no one gets to say i told you so cause there would be nothing after death, or i could be right and god does exist and i am saved and lived a fulfilling life and i don't get screwed. either way i will be fine. so that really should be what it comes down to.

Or it turns out Allah exists and you go to hell for worshipping a false god your whole life.

Or Bakna'lesh, the god of intoxication, exists and punishes you for abstaining from drugs and alcohol.

Or [imagine another god] exists, etc.

Originally Posted by Avalon Jr.

methodists, as a whole, do not allow any kind of stoning, shunning, or discrimination, or other similar points you've made in previous arguments.

Then you are disobeying your religion's "holy" book.

Also, feel free to resurrect an old thread of mine and add to the discussion. It sums up a lot of my disagreement.

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...finitely+happy

Originally Posted by aorozco

uuummm i mentioned hell.
but i wouldn't be worried. that's what i'm saying. no matter how it rurns out i live a good life and as i believe an amazing life in heaven.

You said nothing happens after death. That there are two things that could happen.

and no one gets to say i told you so cause there would be nothing after death, or i could be right and god does exist and i am saved and lived a fulfilling life and i don't get screwed. either way i will be fine. so that really should be what it comes down to.

Where does hell fit into that picture?

Originally Posted by aorozco

you know what i find to be funny about this huge debate of wether god and jesus and the spirit and hell and heaven exist is there are two things that can happen.

i believe in god and all, and when someone decides to say god doesn't exist it's okay cause this is what wil happen, either i am wrong, and there is not a god and i lived a fulfilling life, without the alcohol, and drugs , and no one gets to say i told you so cause there would be nothing after death, or i could be right and god does exist and i am saved and lived a fulfilling life and i don't get screwed. either way i will be fine. so that really should be what it comes down to.

The underlined text is meaningless to your point. Many irreligious people "live a fulfilling life, without the alcohol and drugs."

Meanwhile look up pascal's wager to understand the lack of logic behind the statement that either "there is nothing" or "I am rewarded." scatterbrain already tried to show you the flaw in your thought pattern of using pascal's wager.

Originally Posted by aorozco

you know what i find to be funny about this huge debate of wether god and jesus and the spirit and hell and heaven exist is there are two things that can happen.

i believe in god and all, and when someone decides to say god doesn't exist it's okay cause this is what wil happen, either i am wrong, and there is not a god and i lived a fulfilling life, without the alcohol, and drugs , and no one gets to say i told you so cause there would be nothing after death, or i could be right and god does exist and i am saved and lived a fulfilling life and i don't get screwed. either way i will be fine. so that really should be what it comes down to.

You believe either "there would be nothing after death" or "i am saved." Those are not the only two possibilities.

I'm an atheist and I wouldn't claim you lack moral values just because you're a Christian. Many interpretations of religions lead to good morals.

However, it is not your religion that make your values morally sound. Morals are totally separate from religion. I would consider my set of morals to be inherently obvious and they'll probably coincide with yours.

The major issue I have is just that you believe in something for which there is no evidence, I'd imagine just because you were brought up that way. There are 1000 clearly nonsense religions that you don't believe in at all; it's just that there's 1001 I don't believe in. I wasn't brought up in any bubble so I can see how silly it all is.

Originally Posted by aorozco

when someone decides to say god doesn't exist it's okay cause this is what wil happen, either i am wrong, and there is not a god and i lived a fulfilling life, without the alcohol, and drugs , and no one gets to say i told you so cause there would be nothing after death, or i could be right and god does exist and i am saved and lived a fulfilling life and i don't get screwed. either way i will be fine. so that really should be what it comes down to.

Belief is not a choice.

Originally Posted by aorozco

you know what i find to be funny about this huge debate of wether god and jesus and the spirit and hell and heaven exist is there are two things that can happen.

i believe in god and all, and when someone decides to say god doesn't exist it's okay cause this is what wil happen, either i am wrong, and there is not a god and i lived a fulfilling life, without the alcohol, and drugs , and no one gets to say i told you so cause there would be nothing after death, or i could be right and god does exist and i am saved and lived a fulfilling life and i don't get screwed. either way i will be fine. so that really should be what it comes down to.

That's like exactly the same I feel

Just the other way.

I don't believe in God, but honestly, if he does exist, I don't think he cares wether I believe in him or not. It's not like I'm going to go out and do every available sin, just because I don't believe in him.

So if nothing happens after death, then I wont care.
If I go to heaven. Yay! But I'm going to hate God if he sends people to hell too.


And if I go to hell, it means I fucked up somewhere.

I'm kind of in the same boat. If god does exist (big if) then there are really two options:

1) He is a kind and just god and he understands he didn't give a shred of evidence for his existence and let's me into heaven because I lived a decent life

2) He's a complete asshole, like described in the bible, and sends me to hell because he has a small penis and can't stand the thought of people not worshiping him

The concept of God represents a severe lack of imagination.

Originally Posted by Xei

The concept of God represents a severe lack of imagination.

The concept of an invisible gigantic man in the sky with magic powers seems pretty imaginative to me bro.

Avolan,
The problem that I find with your faith is that it isn't ethically or morally wrong. That is precisely the problem. You have simply taken the religion and omited every portion that doesn't fit into your contemporary world view. Your religion ADVOCATES stoning, shunning, and discrimination; yet after concluding these things are wrong, you disregard them entirely.

These advocations are as much god's word as "Thou Shalt Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself". Think about it.

Also, watch out... the atheists on this board are pretty nasty sometimes

Originally Posted by Photolysis

Ultimately though, these things aside, I don't see any real problems with your beliefs. The same does not apply to a lot of religious beliefs though.

thank you! i take this as a huge compliment, and think it shows that aethiests dont seem to be as single minded as they say they are'nt.

Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

You know, I'm a fellow christian so I hate to say this but I feel I must. It sounds like you've taken all the warm and fuzzy parts of the faith, decided to believe in those and ignored any part that might compell you to higher standards such as Sin or hell. It seems like you've looked at all the scary parts and said, "I can do whatever I want, they don't exsist." Your definition of God sounds like someone on to many antideppresents with no real feeling or thought.

Thats all I felt like saying, I apologize if I have offended you, this is why we have diffrent sects of the faith.

im not offended at all, simply looking for more truth.
why cant i take the warm and fuzzy parts and ignore the others? its my belief, if i may quote my catholic godmother on this, the bible is like lubys, take what you want, leave what you dont. some

Originally Posted by Photolysis

What's more moral, a person who acts kindly because he believes it's the right thing to do, or a person who acts that way out of fear?

someone doing it out of kindness. that is my final thought on the matter.

Originally Posted by aorozco

you know what i find to be funny about this huge debate of wether god and jesus and the spirit and hell and heaven exist is there are two things that can happen.

i believe in god and all, and when someone decides to say god doesn't exist it's okay cause this is what wil happen, either i am wrong, and there is not a god and i lived a fulfilling life, without the alcohol, and drugs , and no one gets to say i told you so cause there would be nothing after death, or i could be right and god does exist and i am saved and lived a fulfilling life and i don't get screwed. either way i will be fine. so that really should be what it comes down to.

this is a lot of what i think, i agree with a lot of this, why not just be on the safe side? god exists? were in heaven, yay! god dosnt exist? we go to the same place the aetheists go, which is apparently no where.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Or it turns out Allah exists and you go to hell for worshipping a false god your whole life.

Or Bakna'lesh, the god of intoxication, exists and punishes you for abstaining from drugs and alcohol.

Or [imagine another god] exists, etc.

allah? in a way, i think allah is god, i may be deist here, but god is everywhere, even though he dosnt have the same name in all places. as for gods that supposedly promote unethical behavior, i think someone was just trying to get what they wanted, much like how chistianity has been transformed today.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Then you are disobeying your religion's "holy" book.

Also, feel free to resurrect an old thread of mine and add to the discussion. It sums up a lot of my disagreement.

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...finitely+happy

you guys crack me up, "our holy book" is the most pretentious overly hyped about book in the world, it was NOT written by god, or even jesus, i do not believe anyone that wrote it was a mouthpiece of god, but simply an overly dramaticized vesion of the truth. im agreeing with you here, the bible has most likely been tampered with countless times, and holds little truth to me.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Belief is not a choice.

THIS, is completly false, i chose to believe in christ, whether my family told me to or not, i am subjected to raw aethism every day, and i have a choice whether or not to believe in god.

thanks for your thoughts everyone, i was expecting flames, thank you for being so mature about the subject.