Thread: A challenge for the Atheist

Originally Posted by SpecialInterests

Mature manner? haha. Meh - I'd choose being immature over delusional any day.

I have heard many people feel as though religion is a good crutch for society. Even though they do not follow any religion.

From your bold statements would it be fair to say that you feel it is the blind leading the blind? That religious people are more of a burden on our society as they perceive things from an ignorant and delusional state?

I would prefer a religiousless society. It encourages us to do very stupid things... first thing that comes to mind is the huge problem with HIV, largely caused by Catholicism still strongly enforcing the banning of condoms.

A good crutch? All religion does is create more differences and seperate people. The only reason religion exists today (In the form it exists today) is because the rulers KNOW... They KNOW it creates differences and keeps people fighting other people. It also keeps peoples minds occupied and entertained so they, the rich, can slip out the back door with all the fucking money, while making even more money off religious institutions. The Catholics are part of, and fund, one of the richest institutions of modern day. You don't think there is some sort of business interest behind it? Of course there is! A handful of men are making money hand over fist!

Religion was a product of the lack of understanding where humans came from. Well, if people would open a fucking book once in a while other than the bible - they might find out where they really came from. Religious people are so self-interested and self-important. Of course, if you tell them something that may threaten their beliefs, they will simply incorporate whatever you tell them into "god's plan". For example, Christians were supporters of creationism for a thousand + years. They believed that god created them in his own image, and put animals and plant life on this earth so they can eat, whatever. Well one day, a very intelligent fellow by the name of Darwin came up with this GREAT theory. A theory that most definitely can not be proven wrong. He stated that humans were just a biological branch of evolution that were descendants of ape-like animals. He also stated that all other species of animals and plants had a common ancestor etc etc. With tons of evidence and modern day science, the theory of evolution can not be disproved. We can see it happening with our own eyes. Well all the sudden Christians believe in the evolution theory but still think it was part of "gods plan". Lol. What a joke.

I don't have a problem with religious people, I just can't stand it when you try and have a conversation with someone and mentions Jesus 20 times in a 5 minute conversation. You want to believe in your made up fairy-tale shit? Fine, keep it to your fucking self. You know? Thats how I feel.

I also think, the world would be a better place without religion.

But I agree with "really" as for the spiritual matter. It also took me some time to actually 'get it', since it doesn't use a scientific language and I was sceptical. It is more about own experience and learning the way of life by nature, rather than in a lab and by singleing out one matter, seperated from the whole. It is more, than just the sum of it parts.

Spirituality, eastern medicin and philosophy are 'holistic sciences', the ones that focus on the big picture, while chemistry, physics or biology single out certain aspects, to look at them more carefully and exact, but ignoring the rest.

The thing is: We need every single one of them. We need combinations.

Looking just at one side of 'evidence' is just like watching a movie without sound, you might have a pretty good idea of what it is all about, but it could basically be something entirely different!

Originally Posted by Avalon Jr.

i am a chistian.

i want you to challenge my faith, and tell me what is wrong with it.
i classify myself as methodist, and i find nothing wrong with it.

methodists, as a whole, do not allow any kind of stoning, shunning, or discrimination, or other similar points you've made in previous arguments.

i want you, to find sind something ethically, or morally wrong with my belief.

I really don't get why so many religious people think atheists are out there to shun and degrade their beliefs. I don't need to find anything morally or ethically wrong with your beliefs to be an atheist; it's my philosophy, it's my religion. As long as you don't enforce yours onto others I'll leave your beliefs be.

Christianity in itself preaches brotherhood and togetherness, but unfortunately this religion is not adequately reflected in the actions of many Christians. From the Crusades to making poor people pay for little pieces of paper ridding them of their sins, the actions of this religion have been unethical. Not always, but in many cases this is true. I'm not trying to attack the basis of your beliefs, but I am merely pointing out that history speaks for itself: Christians are not all goody two-shoes with shiny halos.

I myself do believe in something quite powerful behind everything that entails life; from the tiny units to the giant questions... Where's it all from? I personally don't think it's some old fart with a beard down to his knees sitting on a throne and banning sinners to hell, but you know what? You can.

Anyway I don't need to shun your religion to find it ridiculous.

How you wish you could get away from the ultimate of truths. No man or men could have made this up. The reality in which we live is the same how else could we share eachothers thoughts. A lot of which we do is not controlled by or mind it is controlled by god. Who in the time before Christ would have had the wisdom to make ten commandments for all of humanity to follow and end up were we are now. At Least that's what I think.

Originally Posted by DotheDishes

No man or men could have made this up. .

You'd be surprised with what desperate people are capable of...

Originally Posted by dajo

I also think, the world would be a better place without religion.

But I agree with "really" as for the spiritual matter. It also took me some time to actually 'get it', since it doesn't use a scientific language and I was sceptical. It is more about own experience and learning the way of life by nature, rather than in a lab and by singleing out one matter, seperated from the whole. It is more, than just the sum of it parts.

Spirituality, eastern medicin and philosophy are 'holistic sciences', the ones that focus on the big picture, while chemistry, physics or biology single out certain aspects, to look at them more carefully and exact, but ignoring the rest.

The thing is: We need every single one of them. We need combinations.

Looking just at one side of 'evidence' is just like watching a movie without sound, you might have a pretty good idea of what it is all about, but it could basically be something entirely different!

Not all people are religiously nuts like certain Christian sects and suicide bombing Muslims...

Originally Posted by Dimethyltrip

You'd be surprised with what desperate people are capable of...

You think Jesus was desperate?

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Not all people are religiously nuts like certain Christian sects and suicide bombing Muslims...

I didn't mean to imply that.

Originally Posted by dajo

I didn't mean to imply that.

Just making sure I agree religion has been used by the wrong people for the wrong things.

Yeah, I meant without the massive institutionalized organisations that tell others what to think and leave no room for any new findings or oppress those with different beliefs. I have absolutely nothing to say against anyone who believes in whatever god. I had been an atheist probably all my life, but I would not consider myself that anymore. But I'm not agnostic either.. somehow different. Anyhow.. I do think of myself as tolerant. But I also think that if there suddenly wouldn't be religion anymore, more problems would be solved than caused. But maybe I'm wrong

I don't mean 'if there wouldn't be faith anymore'. Not at all!

Originally Posted by really

You think Jesus was desperate?

No, but Jesus never wrote the bible it's from hundreds of mainly unknown sources.

Jesus seemed to be a revolutionary man but we know very little about his history.

Religion is just another label to smack on to someones forehead to further seperate people. It's used to divide up the rest of society. Religion is used as a barrier, and used as a lullaby to not question authority.

"You think Jesus was desperate?"

I don't think Jesus was desperate - Now if you ask me if I think the people that wrote the bible were desperate, I'd give you a totally different answer.

Originally Posted by SpecialInterests

I don't think Jesus was desperate - Now if you ask me if I think the people that wrote the bible were desperate, I'd give you a totally different answer.

And what's that? Are you really sure how they all felt?

Originally Posted by Dimethyltrip

No, but Jesus never wrote the bible it's from hundreds of mainly unknown sources.

Jesus seemed to be a revolutionary man but we know very little about his history.

You can learn a lot about the time of Jesus. The point is, Jesus was a savior, a teacher, and his apostles were his closest disciples. As for the teachings and stories of Jesus, the scholars/writers of the New Testament did not become desperate and "make it up". That is highly unlikely!

Originally Posted by really

You can learn a lot about the time of Jesus. The point is, Jesus was a savior, a teacher, and his apostles were his closest disciples. As for the teachings and stories of Jesus, the scholars/writers of the New Testament did not become desperate and "make it up". That is highly unlikely!

The bible is true because the bible says its true because the bible is true etc, rite?

Originally Posted by really

And what's that? Are you really sure how they all felt?



You can learn a lot about the time of Jesus. The point is, Jesus was a savior, a teacher, and his apostles were his closest disciples. As for the teachings and stories of Jesus, the scholars/writers of the New Testament did not become desperate and "make it up". That is highly unlikely!

Not all of what was written for the bible is included in the bible...and in particular the birth of Jesus was written in a multitude of ways, and as was much of everything else about Jesus. The writings were written to try to make sure that Jesus "fulfilled" all of the prophecies of the messiah. The "birth" of Jesus had more than one version, and it they didn't include divinity nor virgin birth.

It is obviously made up, unless you are implying that the scribes didn't make it up, they were just writing down what other people made up.

Originally Posted by really

And what's that? Are you really sure how they all felt?

Well, I have a pretty good idea from reading all the pretentious bullshit the bible entails.

Have you never taken in consideration that everything written in the bible was subject to all the prejudices, interests, biases and imaginations of possibly hundreds of primitive authors? Remember too, the stories that THEY wrote down were only word of mouth passed on through generations of OTHER people that also had creative imaginations and biased interests.

Originally Posted by SpecialInterests

Mature manner? haha. Meh - I'd choose being immature over delusional any day.

Nobody makes a choice to be delusional. Remember, your attitude makes a big difference. Being delusional is not an attitude to be conscious of.

Originally Posted by SpecialInterests

Well, I have a pretty good idea from reading all the pretentious bullshit the bible entails.

Have you never taken in consideration that everything written in the bible was subject to all the prejudices, interests, biases and imaginations of possibly hundreds of primitive authors? Remember too, the stories that THEY wrote down were only word of mouth passed on through generations of OTHER people that also had creative imaginations and biased interests.

It's easy to exaggerate and dramatize. I think you're still missing the point. What did Jesus say? Why are so many religious stories and fundamentals so similar, do you think? Why so many spiritual connections? Why so much historical influence?

Originally Posted by Sandform

Not all of what was written for the bible is included in the bible...and in particular the birth of Jesus was written in a multitude of ways, and as was much of everything else about Jesus. The writings were written to try to make sure that Jesus "fulfilled" all of the prophecies of the messiah. The "birth" of Jesus had more than one version, and it they didn't include divinity nor virgin birth.

It is obviously made up, unless you are implying that the scribes didn't make it up, they were just writing down what other people made up.

The are many versions, many translations, many books, and many chapters. If something was left out, it doesn't necessarily mean that it was to hide something. It could simply be inaccurate, irrelevant or unrelated.

I'd like to highlight on one of your key ideas. "It's easy to exxagerate and dramatize" - I think you're finally getting the point man, congrats! But I'm going to assume you're going to stick with you're two thousand year old ideologies and label biblical scriptures as the only thing that isn't easily exxagerated and dramatized?

Originally Posted by SpecialInterests

I'd like to highlight on one of your key ideas. "It's easy to exxagerate and dramatize" - I think you're finally getting the point man, congrats! But I'm going to assume you're going to stick with you're two thousand year old ideologies and label biblical scriptures as the only thing that isn't easily exxagerated and dramatized?

Considering the timelessness of the teachings, how old they are becomes quite irrelevant. You'd realize this if you studied some of the great religions and the mystics of spirituality. The truths are all the same underneath.

Originally Posted by Sandform

Not all of what was written for the bible is included in the bible...and in particular the birth of Jesus was written in a multitude of ways, and as was much of everything else about Jesus. The writings were written to try to make sure that Jesus "fulfilled" all of the prophecies of the messiah. The "birth" of Jesus had more than one version, and it they didn't include divinity nor virgin birth.

It is obviously made up, unless you are implying that the scribes didn't make it up, they were just writing down what other people made up.

Most likely made up, I wonder though did a great man named Jesus really exist?
Obviously not the only son of god to come down, we all are sons and daughters of god..

The are many versions, many translations, many books, and many chapters. If something was left out, it doesn't necessarily mean that it was to hide something. It could simply be inaccurate, irrelevant or unrelated.

Books were removed because they said things the Church doesn't want the people to know or understand.

wow, this thread got much farther than i thought it would...

sorry i forgot you metalfracing, ill answer now.

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

Avolan,
The problem that I find with your faith is that it isn't ethically or morally wrong. That is precisely the problem. You have simply taken the religion and omited every portion that doesn't fit into your contemporary world view. Your religion ADVOCATES stoning, shunning, and discrimination; yet after concluding these things are wrong, you disregard them entirely.

These advocations are as much god's word as "Thou Shalt Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself". Think about it.

Also, watch out... the atheists on this board are pretty nasty sometimes

you say that like i should be stoning and shunning and disriminating people.

i think aetheists and agnostics have a point with who wrote the bible, mabye people added stuff onto it, mabye people got a hold of it, and put stuff in, that wasnt gods word. so then we have to pick and choose for ourselves, morally.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Books were removed because they said things the Church doesn't want the people to know or understand.

The Church frankly did whatever they wanted. Politics.