Why in all religious arguments is god assumed to be morally perfect?

[Thatperson]

When people say "if god really did exist, there wouldn't be pain/genocide etc" why does god have to be morally perfect here? If he is in control of everything why does he have to make a world where suffering does not exist?

[Mespia]

Because this is life. Life is not perfect, and God isn't going to make it perfect for us. There will be people who sin, and we will have to deal with that, but God will give us the strength to get by. If life was perfect, there would be no point in heaven, which is to reward those who were relatively good people in life. That's what I believe, anyway. God doesn't fix stuff up for us or save people from dying. He doesn't interfere for some people but not for others. We have to live out our time on Earth, and God is here to give us the strength to do that.

[Loaf]

Do note, that religion has been created by humans for humans. The earth could be in any state and religion would make anything up to try and explain why things are the way they are. I don't care what you believe, religion serves little more purpose then to comfort people who are scared of death or want to pretend there is more to life, when there isn't. Everyone knows old people suddenly adopt religious ways as they get nearer to death. In this day and age, everything gets scrutinized and examined before people believe it. Yet religion manages to slip through? Why? Because people want to believe it, even when they know its baloney.

[zebrah]

If God is real he is said to be, "A loving God" in the bible. (no bible verses sorry, but trust me its accurate) If God loved us why would he put us in a scenario where pain would exist. I know what you'll say, "Satan corrupted man not God". But if God is all knowing wouldn't he have predicted that? You'll say, "Heaven is perfect that's man kinds hope". Well then is heaven also corruptable? If we loose the free will to sin in heaven then why not start out that way?

[Mud]

In theory, if anything,. "GOD"'s moral compass would be more twisted than any human. After living so long, your moral compass might be really "good" - that is, for a human. But after out living billions of humans. You may grow board and morally twisted. Especially if you're judging all these freaks that were made in your imagine. The filth and scum of the world would reflect back to you and not be in your favour and perhaps show you your true colours. Haha However being an observer with no affect, might just drive a "GOD" mad. Insanity over-riding any morals to be found.

[zebrah]

Mud, your forgetting something. Many ask the question, "If God can do anything can he make a burrito so big that he couldn't eat it". Where am I going with this? The common answer for this question is, "I don't know". But asking a theologist or a more learned person you'll get an answer along the lines of, "Its not in God's moral character" God can do anything within his character. And being cruel like that is not in his character as mentioned earlie, "God is loving" This shows that according to this bible even the worlds creator doesn't have free will. Doesn't make sense to me.

[Photolysis]

When people say "if god really did exist, there wouldn't be pain/genocide etc" why does god have to be morally perfect here? If he is in control of everything why does he have to make a world where suffering does not exist? There's no reason that any god must be morally perfect, and I don't think many seriously make that argument. What people usually argue - which I agree with - is that by human standards, most religious Gods are immoral. Omnipotence means anything can be done effortlessly, so reducing suffering takes no effort whatsoever. If any human failed to help someone when there was no cost for them, no effort involved, or any reason not to help them, then by almost all moral standards they would be considered immoral. In some contexts, they would actually be committing a criminal action (for example by coming across someone wounded with no-one around and not contacting emergency services before ignoring them and taking off). Perhaps more of an interesting and correct question is why so many assert that various gods must be perfect, despite the inconsistent, reprehensible and often hypocritical actions they take, according to their very own works (supposedly)?

[Xei]

I wouldn't mind if God just left us to our own devices to work out for ourselves how to act in a moral manner, but in the Bible at least God is far from passive; he personally orders genocides and the stoning of children among other atrocities, and personally wipes out entire peoples.

[Replicon]

Because God was created in the image of Man, and Man is Vain.

[Dream_King]

The answer to the question is simple, All Abrahamic religions beleive that God created the universe and defines right and wrong, therefore, it is impossoble for God to be wrong.

[spockman]

If God created everything, I suppose he would be the author of social order and morality, as well. Unfortunately, that argument can be twisted to make ethics purely arbitrary, and justify extreme/immoral actions.

[zebrah]

Are you primarily taking about the Christian god. If so all the evidence to answer your quesion is in the bible err book of lies

[Loaf]

Jesus was a fantastic magician. He amazed people with his water into wine party trick. Then for his last performance, he would escape from being nailed to a cross and emerge scratch free... ... oh wait. Guess it went wrong. He died on stage.

[Universal Mind]

When people say "if god really did exist, there wouldn't be pain/genocide etc" why does god have to be morally perfect here? If he is in control of everything why does he have to make a world where suffering does not exist? Because if he is infinitely powerful, he can. If he can do that with total ease without any resulting problems at all yet doesn't, then he is a major asshole.

[spockman]

I don't know. I think there is an inherent value to humanity. That society, art, culture, working your arms off to feed yourself, struggle, finding love amidst hate, and all these other things are neccessary parts of having any more than a superficial advancment as a species. If we were all in the land of happy-go-lucky... I'm not sure I would like that very much.

[Loaf]

Strange, shouldn't there be a blind and ignorant religious person shouting out random shit from the bible at this point in the discussion?

[spockman]

Strange, shouldn't there be a blind and ignorant religious person shouting out random shit from the bible at this point in the discussion? You don't have to be blind and ignorant to accept the Bible. You are only being blind if you think it is the only tool for argument and that 'the buck stops here' when it comes to the book.

[Loaf]

You don't have to be blind and ignorant to accept the Bible. And where did I say that?

[Universal Mind]

If we were all in the land of happy-go-lucky... I'm not sure I would like that very much. The point is that an infinitely powerful being could make it where you would. He could achieve any result without there being any problems with it. A being that can't do that isn't infinitely powerful.

[spockman]

And where did I say that? Oh, you didn't. I was just saying that if someone did qoute the Bible, it wouldn't be bad as long as they considered the other points, too. Which, of course, you also didn't say would be bad. The point is that an infinitely powerful being could make it where you would. He could achieve any result without there being any problems with it. A being that can't do that isn't infinitely powerful. Yeah. But if we are in the image of God, then perhaps we were made with all the same character traits of God. Anger, love, hate, jealousy, compassion... And then given mostly free reign with our emotions. Maybe there is a value to being independent beings. Maybe being human, with all it's faults, is as close to being God as we will ever be.

[Supernova]

God loves all of his children! Wait a minute...

[Universal Mind]

Yeah. But if we are in the image of God, then perhaps we were made with all the same character traits of God. Anger, love, hate, jealousy, compassion... And then given mostly free reign with our emotions. Maybe there is a value to being independent beings. Maybe being human, with all it's faults, is as close to being God as we will eve be. Then he is either not totally good or not infinitely powerful.

[gdriggs]

When people say "if god really did exist, there wouldn't be pain/genocide etc" why does god have to be morally perfect here? If he is in control of everything why does he have to make a world where suffering does not exist? God IS morally perfect............ Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. ..........and He creates evil......... Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. ........and causes mankind to experience evil to humble us by it. Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it. Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips. Some might say that makes God evil, but not if you understand that is why He created Satan (the Adversary) to do the evil, as God Himself does not do evil. Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. 1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh (carnal mind), that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. You could ask, "can God be morally perfect, while at the same time creating and causing evil"? If you believe the Scriptures then the answer would be yes. Peace gdriggs

[Universal Mind]

........and causes mankind to experience evil to humble us by it. With his infinite power, he couldn't come up with a humane way of doing that? To give the world evil would be evil.

[gdriggs]

With his infinite power, he couldn't come up with a humane way of doing that? To give the world evil would be evil. It is God's way, and I believe it is the best way. He wants us to have an understanding of good and evil like He does, and what better way than to cause us to experience it? Evil is only temporary, but the knowledge of evil will be eternal. The average person lives to be about 70 years old, and if you are strong, 80. This experience of evil as mortals IS humane, as it is a very short time compared to the eternal glory God has in store for us when we are finally made in His image. The suffering we go through now is nothing compared to what He has in store for us. He even describes the glory as a burden. Pay close attention to these verses and you can see this speaks not only about believers, but also about all creation. Rom 8:18-23 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature (all creation) waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity (moral depravity), not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 2Co 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight (burden) of glory; I realize and understand for someone who might not believe in God all this is hard to swallow, but what is even more ironic is the fact most Christians will not believe what I have just presented to you despite it being plainly written. Another interesting observation is that neither Christians or atheists like the idea of God creating and causing evil as a means to a glorious end, and a new beginning. Neither side can see the wisdom in teaching humanity using evil, which is understandable. Christians want to get God off the hook for all the evil and suffering, atheist want to blame Him (even though they say He does not exist), and a small few will give Him all the credit and glory with an understanding and belief He always does what is fair, just, righteous and wise, and that He would never create billions of people just to torture most of them in fire for all eternity for only a lifetime of sins. Make no mistake, there will be judgment to make things right, but look what happens to everyone when His judgments are in the earth. Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. It will be done through the very fire Christianity says will torture most of humanity for all eternity. Mar 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 1Co 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Rev 20:13-15 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. No one escapes judgment, not even the Christians. 1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 2Th 1:4-5 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Peace gdriggs