Thread: Love

Society and culture are built on love and nothing else sustains them.

Mmm, sort of. I do agree that love is the easiest (and most fulfilling) path
to coexistence with our own kind, but "society" displays trends that
are, shall we say, counterproductive to the spread of acceptance for one
another. Most of it comes from the gender roles that are imposed on both
sexes, more so upon women. It's looked down upon for men to display
real emotions, and women are constantly being objectified. Things get
better over time, but old habits die hard, and it's sad.

Also, what does "lotus-born savior" mean?

Originally Posted by Invader

Mmm, sort of. I do agree that love is the easiest (and most fulfilling) path to coexistence with our own kind, but "society" displays trends that are, shall we say, counterproductive to the spread of acceptance for one another. Most of it comes from the gender roles that are imposed on both sexes, more so upon women. It's looked down upon for men to display real emotions, and women are constantly being objectified. Things get better over time, but old habits die hard, and it's sad.

Also, what does "lotus-born savior" mean?

Hee hee I was more than a tad drunkers when I wrote this thread, but I stand by it What I'm getting at is that love is the foundation, the background against which our flaws stand out. For all society's kinks, the sheer scale of it is a testament to our love and collective goodwill.

We certainly could let love flow more smoothly and with less obstruction through the body politic, and I would say of human civilization on the whole that we are bringing more people--and even animals--into the light of love. Even if you look at one of the deeper enmities in our culture now, Christians vs. GLBTs, there are churches opening up and accepting GLBTs, some few performing commitment ceremonies, and one of our most mainstream denominations, Episcopalians, accepting partnered gays into their clergy, and of course GLBTs are joining and dedicating themselves to serve these congregations. Despite all the distortions wrought on our society and religious institutions by fear and lust for power, love comes through.

Also, what does "lotus-born savior" mean?

Sorry, I forgot your question and then the forum went all wonky

Padmasambhava literally means "born from a lotus." Tradition has it that the saint, credited with introducing Buddhism to Tibet, emerged fully formed and seated in meditation upon a lotus blossom. While on the surface this sounds like a miraculous and magical origin, the symbolism is precisely opposite. The lotus in Buddhism represents the mundane, beauty which is decaying even as it emerges: samsara. Moreover, the Lotus Family of buddhas refers to the buddhas of the human realm. So while on one level Padmasambhava's story conveys a profound and miraculous nature, on another it simply declares him a human from earth.

Here's one of my favorite people, George Coyne. He's a jesuit priest that used to be the head of their observatory. It's an interview/discussion with richards dawkins. It's probably slightly over an hour long and is broken into 7 parts. At some point in the interview, he breaks down the idea of a god into a "god of explanation" and a "god of love" and essentially tells the god of explanation to not let the door hit its ass on the way out. It's the only time that I've seen dawkins really show respect for a religious person.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po0ZM...BCCCF5&index=0

Originally Posted by Taosaur

For me, what all religions boil down to is love. The human experience is dependent upon love for its furtherance. Society and culture are built on love and nothing else sustains them. I recently had the experience of understanding how Jesus Christ, in his teaching and his death, lit a beacon of love that pierces time to declare that all who can forgive themselves might be saved.

My own path is that of the Buddha, as carried over the mountains in the high age of Buddhism in India by Marpa the translator to Tibet, and established once again among the people who had first known it from Padmasambhava, the lotus-born savior of Tibet some 800 years prior. Still, what I see as the fundamental teaching, to bring all human beings into concordance with the base unity of our race, is love.

What all religions boil down to is a explanation in the hands of uncertainty. Or even explain things differently and imply that words or actions have more "meanings" than just communication or survival. Some may say you ride the reigns of heaven and all is splendor after you die, others could also find happiness in the simple channeling of mantras like Buddha for a example. I can tell you that "Love" of Jesus Christ is not compelling the typical American to join religion like Catholicism and any of its reforms, the insecurity of not having a deeper meaning, feeling "small", as well as the fear of "Burning In Hell" is a much more potent incentive to follow these beliefs.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

For me, what all religions boil down to is love. The human experience is dependent upon love for its furtherance. Society and culture are built on love and nothing else sustains them. I recently had the experience of understanding how Jesus Christ, in his teaching and his death, lit a beacon of love that pierces time to declare that all who can forgive themselves might be saved.

My own path is that of the Buddha, as carried over the mountains in the high age of Buddhism in India by Marpa the translator to Tibet, and established once again among the people who had first known it from Padmasambhava, the lotus-born savior of Tibet some 800 years prior. Still, what I see as the fundamental teaching, to bring all human beings into concordance with the base unity of our race, is love.

Yes, it all boils down to love. That's what it is all about, because love really does connect us. Human ego keeps us separated...individualized. As long as we have a body, human ego will not disappear. Because the body wants desires.

What is a physical body? The body is merely an object. It is an
existence all too impure to store the gods within us called souls.
Now you will remember. The blood stained history! Material desire.
Hunger. Sexual drive. Desire to dominate. Desire for fame. As long
as there is a body, desires will be born. As long as there is
desire, human ego will not disappear. Humans will continue to
fight to fulfill their bodies' desires, and it will never end.

Sometimes I really wonder, did God really create humans, or did humans create God. We're a single consciousness experiencing itself subjectively.

I think Buddhism may be the closest to the universal truth than anyone or anything else. I think I may start actually reading Buddhism.

Ah yes, love. Some say that love is a burning thing that makes a somewhat fiery ring. Thankfully I've never been bound by such a wild desire. Eventually though I guess I'll fall into that elusive "ring of fire".

Oh wait...religion, right, well...I believe it all boils down to love as well. Love in my opinion, is the best religion that never existed.

I don't believe religion boils down to one single thing. I think love has a lot to do with it, but I believe religion has more to it. Love, uncertainty, unexplained, feeling of being important, etc.

The holy book of Judaism and Christianity says to kill homosexuals, adulterers, and people who work on Sunday. The Koran says to kill people who are not Muslim. So, I disagree.

Yes, it all boils down to love. That's what it is all about, because love really does connect us. Human ego keeps us separated...individualized. As long as we have a body, human ego will not disappear. Because the body wants desires.


I'm not so sure about this. How do you know if you haven't been to the other side with no ego? It might be impossible but then again it might...I do believe most people have small glimpse of experiencing the world as it is outside their own mind.

Sometimes I really wonder, did God really create humans, or did humans create God. We're a single consciousness experiencing itself subjectively.

I think Buddhism may be the closest to the universal truth than anyone or anything else. I think I may start actually reading Buddhism.

You do realize that Buddhism doesn't have a "God" per say (certain Buddhist sects have something like deities but...yeah). In Sanskrit Buddha, closely means "awake" or "awakened one." But the Nature is Tao and the Tao is Nature. Be in harmony with the Tao, with nature. Just ask the Taosaur!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSWis...eature=related

BTW TAOSAUAR Can you check out my post http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=82058 .

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The holy book of Judaism and Christianity says to kill homosexuals, adulterers, and people who work on Sunday. The Koran says to kill people who are not Muslim. So, I disagree.

I would LOVE to see where you found that.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The holy book of Judaism and Christianity says to kill homosexuals, adulterers, and people who work on Sunday. The Koran says to kill people who are not Muslim. So, I disagree.

I've heard this, but could you cite actual verses/scriptures where these books actually say this?

From what I understand, it was punishably by death by LAW...

I would LOVE to see where you found that.

You need to spend more time reading the 'good' book.

20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Those are the most direct ones. There are plenty of less direct ones as well.

From what I understand, it was punishably by death by LAW...

Nope, it's in the bible. Now go out there and kill some homosexuals or you're not a true Christian!

[Removed an unneeded sarcastic comment]

Originally Posted by ZenMan12

I'm not so sure about this. How do you know if you haven't been to the other side with no ego? It might be impossible but then again it might...I do believe most people have small glimpse of experiencing the world as it is outside their own mind.

Because I do a LOT of reading on different subjects. I read everything, listen to everyone, and connect dots. Not just logical thinking but holistic thinking, trying to see the bigger picture. Not everything can be explained logically. Like Pi, it's an infinite number, it never stops. We can't understand infinity because most of us are used to linear thinking. Meaning something always has a beginning and an end. Lucid dreaming is..infinity....but uhh, back on topic.

I don't think there is any "outside" of the mind. I think all that exists is within a universal mind. A mind that encompasses all of creation: every world, every reality, every dimension. It holds within it every concept, every idea, every being ever created or will be created, every dream, every thought...

...and it has its own voice, its own purpose. This universal mind has no ego. And we are the universal mind, a single consciousness experiencing itself within it's own mind or subjectively.

People that meditate stop their thought process, which pretty much kills the ego and puts them in a state of pure awareness. If you are at one with the universe or nature you are connected to the universe...you feel like the universe itself. This has to be experienced and can never be explained properly. It's a feeling. And I feel like feelings are the only thing that is actually real.

People meditate for different reasons. For me it started out as a pain reduction program. Meditation is a great stress reliever, lowers blood pressure, improves immune response as well as a host of other health benefits.

But once you start to meditate you discover the spiritual aspect of the process. It strengthens the connection to the soul. Depending on your belief system this either scares you or delights you.

Another reason people mediate? To quieten their Ego so they can hear their Spirit. It can be recreational, I suppose, but since Spirit is True Self, it's pretty important to be able to access Spirit.

Who do you think you are in non-lucid dreams? Your being your true-self, acting out feelings.

Originally Posted by Dreams4free

What all religions boil down to is a explanation in the hands of uncertainty. Or even explain things differently and imply that words or actions have more "meanings" than just communication or survival. Some may say you ride the reigns of heaven and all is splendor after you die, others could also find happiness in the simple channeling of mantras like Buddha for a example. I can tell you that "Love" of Jesus Christ is not compelling the typical American to join religion like Catholicism and any of its reforms, the insecurity of not having a deeper meaning, feeling "small", as well as the fear of "Burning In Hell" is a much more potent incentive to follow these beliefs.

The role of explanation in religion is to settle the mind so that the heart can open. The teachings of any religion are foremost tools, not truths. Mistaking their nature, we too often put them on pedestals in museum cases and set guards around them, when their purpose is to be taken up and used. Hell isn't simply a coercion, but a warning of the very real consequences of habits and actions that will cause you to turn away from love and deny yourself love. As for what turns people to religion, the compulsion to love and be loved--to be forgiven and take refuge in an infinite source of love--easily tops the list. The accomplishment of Christ and the Saints, Buddha and the Bodhisattvas, was to establish fixed points in history where the love of which this world is made can shine through. No matter how turned around and twisted some individuals and institutions calling on the names of these men and women may become, those points of light remain.

We are love separated from itself. Because it is our nature, as love, to create, we easily grow lost in the compounding intricacy of our own design, forgetting that we share a common source with all around us. It can take a powerful reminder, when we're lost far out in the weeds, to turn our attention back toward home.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The holy book of Judaism and Christianity says to kill homosexuals, adulterers, and people who work on Sunday. The Koran says to kill people who are not Muslim. So, I disagree.

Matthew, in addressing the Jews of Rome, cited Christ as saying, "Let not a word be struck from the Law," but Christ also decried the litigious adherence to scripture of the Pharisees. The artifacts of our past understanding are not to be discarded, but retained in their proper place. The choice is not only to retain scripture as immutable law or reject it outright; scripture in any tradition is to be contemplated to improve our understanding. One lesson of Leviticus is that human society has come a long way in terms of comfort and acceptance since the time when rigid adherence to social norms was a matter of survival. Few, if any, Christians or even Jews are roleplaying ancient Israel, so why judge the fundamental character of Christianity or Judaism on that basis?

Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers, the flowers fade, but the word of our god stands forever.

Originally Posted by davej

From what I understand, it was punishably by death by LAW...

Doesn't the Bible promote those laws?

Originally Posted by Taosaur

Matthew, in addressing the Jews of Rome, cited Christ as saying, "Let not a word be struck from the Law," but Christ also decried the litigious adherence to scripture of the Pharisees. The artifacts of our past understanding are not to be discarded, but retained in their proper place. The choice is not only to retain scripture as immutable law or reject it outright; scripture in any tradition is to be contemplated to improve our understanding. One lesson of Leviticus is that human society has come a long way in terms of comfort and acceptance since the time when rigid adherence to social norms was a matter of survival. Few, if any, Christians or even Jews are roleplaying ancient Israel, so why judge the fundamental character of Christianity or Judaism on that basis?

Christians and Jews should ignore what the Bible says? If it is the word of God, what is that garbage doing in it? Is it the word of God, or the word of crazy humans?

Originally Posted by Jeff777

I've heard this, but could you cite actual verses/scriptures where these books actually say this?

Photolysis posted the Bible verses I was talking about. Look at post #31 here for some Koran quotes about war against infidels.

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...t=bigmo&page=2

A long debate about the quotes follows the post.

Originally Posted by Jeff777

Ah yes, love. Some say that love is a burning thing that makes a somewhat fiery ring. Thankfully I've never been bound by such a wild desire. Eventually though I guess I'll fall into that elusive "ring of fire".

Oh wait...religion, right, well...I believe it all boils down to love as well. Love in my opinion, is the best religion that never existed.

don't let christianity be your only measurement of what religion is

there are many religions in this world, (including christianity) that make the claim that the most important thing you can ever do in your lifetime as a human, is to love. love in the highest possible way your little brain can understand it. some religions are more successful getting this across.

others have lots of ugly layers on top.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Christians and Jews should ignore what the Bible says? If it is the word of God, what is that garbage doing in it? Is it the word of God, or the word of crazy humans?

You're simply repeating the false dichotomy I've already addressed, in red below:

Matthew, in addressing the Jews of Rome, cited Christ as saying, "Let not a word be struck from the Law," but Christ also decried the litigious adherence to scripture of the Pharisees. The artifacts of our past understanding are not to be discarded, but retained in their proper place. The choice is not only to retain scripture as immutable law or reject it outright; scripture in any tradition is to be contemplated to improve our understanding. One lesson of Leviticus is that human society has come a long way in terms of comfort and acceptance since the time when rigid adherence to social norms was a matter of survival. Few, if any, Christians or even Jews are roleplaying ancient Israel, so why judge the fundamental character of Christianity or Judaism on that basis?

Christians and Jews should reflect on the Bible/Torah deeply to understand how the teachings therein reflect upon the present world, as it is. Part of that understanding includes the historical and social context of various books, as the Bible is not a single text but a collection of canon. In applying the texts to reality, many Christians and Jews today find that homosexuality is acceptable in both the congregation and the clergy, even though it was a fundamental threat to the social order in ancient Israel.

That love trumps scripture is not a weakness of religion, but a strength, and the topic of this thread.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

You're simply repeating the false dichotomy I've already addressed, in red below:



Christians and Jews should reflect on the Bible/Torah deeply to understand how the teachings therein reflect upon the present world, as it is. Part of that understanding includes the historical and social context of various books, as the Bible is not a single text but a collection of canon. In applying the texts to reality, many Christians and Jews today find that homosexuality is acceptable in both the congregation and the clergy, even though it was a fundamental threat to the social order in ancient Israel.

That love trumps scripture is not a weakness of religion, but a strength, and the topic of this thread.

In other words, the Bible is NOT the word of God... It is a book that was written by humans, and some of it is wrong even though it contains some good suggestions and guidelines. Is that right?

Photo, I must say and not ashamed to admit that for now, you have me on this one. This is going to take some researching. The only thing that I can say is (besides Numbers 15:32) is the wages of sin is death but turning from sin, accepting Jesus and being save bring eternal life after death. I'll have to get back to you on this one. Good point though

Photo, I must say and not ashamed to admit that for now, you have me on this one.

I'm impressed you had the honesty and integrity to admit this. Well done. (Seriously)

It's stuff like those passages that clearly show it to be a contradictory work that cannot have been written by an omnipotent perfect all-loving being.

Some try to get around this by claiming that our relationship with God has changed, yet if you read other passages you get stuff like the following

Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

UM has put it quite eloquently when he says:

the Bible is NOT the word of God... It is a book that was written by humans, and some of it is wrong even though it contains some good suggestions and guidelines.

The Bible has both good parts and bad parts. Pieces of wisdom that still hold true in our current era (such as the golden rule), as well as guidelines that were never good. The contradictory nature allows almost any world view to be supported.

But certainly it cannot be used as a moral guide to anything, because if we took our morals from it, they'd also be contradictory (and very evil in some places). And the only way we can judge suggestions like "kill all homosexuals" as being bad is via an outside source of morality.

The fact remains, when you read it in detail you can see the book for what it is: an illogical and inconsistent book written by primitive men came up with a few good ideas, but many more bad ones.

I don't have time at the moment to go in to greater detail over this subject, particularly the parts where Jesus maintains that the Old Testament is still valid, so that's all I'll say for now.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

In other words, the Bible is NOT the word of God... It is a book that was written by humans, and some of it is wrong even though it contains some good suggestions and guidelines. Is that right?

Is the Bible a single, internally consistent work with a single author of ultimate authority? No. That's precisely what I was talking about a few posts back:

The teachings of any religion are foremost tools, not truths. Mistaking their nature, we too often put them on pedestals in museum cases and set guards around them, when their purpose is to be taken up and used.

Are its origins still worthy of respect, being the distillate spiritual lore of half a dozen distinct eras antecedent to our own? Yes. None of it is "wrong" unless put to the wrong use.

I have plenty of criticisms of Christianity, and monotheism in general, and I've voiced more than a few in this forum, but it is a functioning wisdom tradition--functioning in the sense that individuals can use its practices and teachings to connect and live in accord with the source of being--and Christ was one of humanity's greatest spiritual adepts. In my thinking, monotheism, and Christianity in particular, are the pop music of religion and spirituality; much of it is off base, ill crafted and prone to repetitive error, but it's broadly accessible and you can dance to it.

I'll take the swing beat of Buddhism or the complex orchestrations of the Tao, myself, and some earth-shamanic jams when I can get them, but I don't look down on people shaking it to Britney or Jay-Z if it's getting them where they want to be.