Thread: Can god create a rock so big...

Hahahahahahahahahaha.

In before move to SB.
Or in before lock.

Originally Posted by Mark75

The Black Knight, despite having both arms and legs lopped off, refused to accept that he had been defeated, insisting that "it's just a flesh wound!" and continuing with such threats as "I'll bite your legs off!"

Oh ok.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Do you really need it explained again? Seriously? Infinite power is the opposite of limited power. Having infinite power is all about not being unable to do something. Once you talk about not being able to do something, you are not talking about infinite power. Duh.

I'm well aware of that, yet you can't justify yourself by trying to contradict everything, especially with semantics.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

What did I take out of context? Let's see somebody back up that dumb ass accusation for once. Be the first. Go for it.

For one example, you argued against me by cutting out half of my sentence - "Infinite power cannot", whereas the entire sentance gives meaning to what you selected ("Infinite power cannot self-destruct or destroy itself because:"). That is taking it out of context, which is a confirmation bias.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

No, not inconclusive. Those scenarios prove the absurdity of the notion of infinite power.

If God has the limit of not being able to be limited, then he is limited. So, he can't have the limit of not being able to limited because the hypothetical principle contradicts itself.

Conclusion: The science fiction idea of omnipotence is a logic clusterfuck and profoundly absurd.

Actually, your conclusion merely reflects the illogical, semantic, tautological reasoning that you've used. Omnipotence is not hypothetical but your argument against it is. And you need to quit your equivocation.

Break it down:

"If God has the limit of not being able to be limited, then he is limited." INVALID

In better words, you've said - "If God has the limit of being UNLIMITED, then he is limited." INVALID

You've ignored "not being able to be limited [unlimited]", giving: "If God has a limit, then he is limited." INVALID

Being unable to be destroyed or diminished is intrinsically NOT A LIMITATION.

THE INFINITE =/= FINITE

THE INVINCIBLE =/= DESTRUCTIBLE, REDUCIBLE

THAT WHICH INTRINSICALLY IS ALL POWER IS NOT SUBJECT TO WEAKNESS, DESTRUCTION OR LACK

Originally Posted by Fableflame

<======== This thread.

...i love you.

Originally Posted by Noogah

...i love you.

EEEEWWWWWWWWWWW COOTIES!!!!!!!!!!!i

Originally Posted by really

"If God has the limit of not being able to be limited, then he is limited." INVALID

Can you explain why this is invalid? If god cannot do something (such as limit himself) that is by definition a limitation. Limitations are things you can't do.

Originally Posted by really

Being unable to be destroyed or diminished is intrinsically NOT A LIMITATION.

Correct, however not being able to destroy or diminish yourself is a limitation if doing so out of the scope of your ability. Can god do _____? If god has no limit to his power, it shouldn't matter what you put in the blank, the answer should be yes. You are suggesting that placing "destroy himself" returns the answer no. This must mean that you think that god has certain restrictions on his ability. It seems like you're getting frustrated because the definition of omnipotence UM is using is illogical, paradoxical and silly. But that is exactly the point UM is trying to highlight. The point he and I are trying to make is that omnipotence is impossible. And really, the definition he is using is the only really accurate and relevant one. The only other sense which "omnipotence" could be used otherwise in this kind of context would be a hyperbolic one to simply indicate an extreme (but not unlimited) amount of power, in which case it'd just make more sense to say that there are certain things god cannot do.

"however not being able to destroy or diminish yourself is a limitation"

God never said that he couldn't.

Originally Posted by Noogah

"however not being able to destroy or diminish yourself is a limitation"

God never said that he couldn't.

I wouldn't suppose he had. really, on the other hand, did. Are you here to participate in the discussion?

Originally Posted by really

I'm well aware of that, yet you can't justify yourself by trying to contradict everything, especially with semantics.

The contradictions prove the absurdity of the idea of omnipotence.

Originally Posted by really

For one example, you argued against me by cutting out half of my sentence - "Infinite power cannot", whereas the entire sentance gives meaning to what you selected ("Infinite power cannot self-destruct or destroy itself because:"). That is taking it out of context, which is a confirmation bias.

It doesn't matter what you put after "cannot" in that sentence. It automatically creates a contradiction. (as Mark said) That is exactly what I was illustrating. There is no "cannot" with an omnipotent being. That is why omnipotence is an absurd principle. The nature of it contradicts itself.

Originally Posted by really

Actually, your conclusion merely reflects the illogical, semantic, tautological reasoning that you've used. Omnipotence is not hypothetical but your argument against it is. And you need to quit your equivocation.

Break it down:

"If God has the limit of not being able to be limited, then he is limited." INVALID

In better words, you've said - "If God has the limit of being UNLIMITED, then he is limited." INVALID

You've ignored "not being able to be limited [unlimited]", giving: "If God has a limit, then he is limited." INVALID

My point is valid. The contradictions I am talking about are not. The invalidity you are talking about is actually the nature of omnipotence. It is self-contradictory and invalid. Exactly.

Originally Posted by really

Being unable to be destroyed or diminished is intrinsically NOT A LIMITATION.

THE INFINITE =/= FINITE

THE INVINCIBLE =/= DESTRUCTIBLE, REDUCIBLE

THAT WHICH INTRINSICALLY IS ALL POWER IS NOT SUBJECT TO WEAKNESS, DESTRUCTION OR LACK

Infinite power is the ability to do ANYTHING, even be destroyed. If something cannot allow itself to be destroyed, that is something it CANNOT do. It is therefore not omnipotent. You are talking about invincibility, which is a quality an omnipotent being could have IF it wanted it. Invincibility and infinite power are not the same thing.

Originally Posted by Noogah

...i love you.

Get a room.

Originally Posted by Mark75

Can god do _____? If god has no limit to his power, it shouldn't matter what you put in the blank, the answer should be yes.

Can god do keyboard? No, that sentence doesn't make any sense. Which is basically the point. You can't just string random words together, and say god should be able to do it, because he is god.

Originally Posted by Alric

Can god do keyboard? No, that sentence doesn't make any sense. Which is basically the point. You can't just string random words together, and say god should be able to do it, because he is god.

Yeah, it is kind of the point, isn't it? That omnipotence allows for illogical situations? That's what I've been saying all along, isn't it? Are you suggesting that a lowly thing like human logic is something that an omnipotent being would be restricted by?

"My point is valid. The contradictions I am talking about are not. The invalidity you are talking about is actually the nature of omnipotence. It is self-contradictory and invalid. Exactly. "

Way to ignore something! Lol

Don't ya hate being a minority? This is what it feels like, so remember it as long as your here.

this fun! I could watch you guys go back and forth forever.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Way to ignore something! Lol

Way to not say what you are talking about. Lol

Originally Posted by Mark75

Yeah, it is kind of the point, isn't it? That omnipotence allows for illogical situations? That's what I've been saying all along, isn't it? Are you suggesting that a lowly thing like human logic is something that an omnipotent being would be restricted by?

You just killed yourself in that last sentence while trying to be funny. God invented logic, and could easily change it.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Way to not say what you are talking about. Lol

What? Are you serious? I shouldn't have to say!

Anybody wanna join for a live debate in the dv chatroom?

Originally Posted by Noogah

God invented logic, and could easily change it.

Oh, he could? Then, he really can do absolutely anything. That is exactly my point about the character. Alric disagrees with you, by the way.

Originally Posted by Noogah

What? Are you serious? I shouldn't have to say!

Stop playing games. If you have a point, make it.

Poor me! Alric disagrees!! What am I gonna do!?!

Wanna join for a live debate in the dv chatroom? That would be fun!

Originally Posted by Noogah

You just killed yourself in that last sentence while trying to be funny. God invented logic, and could easily change it.

I wasn't trying to be funny. Yes, I know. god should be able to change logic if he's all powerful. I don't understand what problem you have with what I said.

Originally Posted by Noogah

"My point is valid. The contradictions I am talking about are not. The invalidity you are talking about is actually the nature of omnipotence. It is self-contradictory and invalid. Exactly. "

Way to ignore something! Lol

Don't ya hate being a minority? This is what it feels like, so remember it as long as your here.

this fun! I could watch you guys go back and forth forever.

Come again?

please stop arguing about me my children i can do everything even kill myself how i would simply create a copy of my self and kill it do you see i can lift any rock even a rock that is too large for me to lift do not question me if i were to explain it to you your head would explode because that is how truly amazing i am i am a god and you all are just mortals you couldnt begin to understand my logic

AHEM:

we're using this thread as a place to debate live. Who wants to take it to the dv chatroom?

Originally Posted by God_Almighty

please stop arguing about me my children i can do everything even kill myself how i would simply create a copy of my self and kill it do you see i can lift any rock even a rock that is too large for me to lift do not question me if i were to explain it to you your head would explode because that is how truly amazing i am i am a god and you all are just mortals you couldnt begin to understand my logic

Originally Posted by Noogah

AHEM:

we're using this thread as a place to debate live. Who wants to take it to the dv chatroom?

What difference would that make?

My point is that the definition of omnipotence, is to be extremely powerful. While a being with infinite power falls into the definition, so does one who just has power far beyond our own. In fact, when someone says something is infinitely powerful, they are not saying the being can do anything including illogical statements. They are saying that the being for all intensive purposes is so powerful and so beyond us they can do anything, and this may or may not include self contradicting and illogical things.

My problem is with anyone who say god is omnipotent, and because he is omnipotent he can do illogical statements, and because he can do illogical statements does not exist. I have a problem with that, because one, He can be omnipotent, but he doesn't have to be, he could just be extremely powerful and the creater of the world. Two, if you believe he is omnipotent, then you can logically say he can do anything, except for silly illogical statements which make no sense. Or you can say he can even do that, but it is outside our perception to see.

You can't say, he is omnipotent, and omnipotent can't exist and so God doesn't exist. That is just trying to be argumentative. Which is basically what Universal Mind is being. He refuse to accept anything less than someone saying God can't exist. People said well god doesn't have to be infinitely powerful and he said no, God has to be. People said, well okay he can do it but maybe we cant perceive it and he said no, we have to be able to perceive it. He is simply being thick headed and trying to argue with people. Otherwise, he would of accept what everyone else said. Which logically explained it all.

Well people, this has been fun. I shall return tomorrow. And btw, new guy. Who's side are you on?

Originally Posted by Alric

My point is that the definition of omnipotence, is to be extremely powerful.

That is one of the lesser defintions in the dictionary, but it is not what the Bible says about God. The Bible says in very simple and exceptionless terms that nothing is impossible for God.

Originally Posted by Alric

Which is basically what Universal Mind is being. He refuse to accept anything less than someone saying God can't exist. People said well god doesn't have to be infinitely powerful and he said no, God has to be. People said, well okay he can do it but maybe we cant perceive it and he said no, we have to be able to perceive it. He is simply being thick headed and trying to argue with people. Otherwise, he would of accept what everyone else said. Which logically explained it all.

You are straight up pulling things out of your ass. Quote me on where I said we would have to perceive God. When did I said God would have to be infinitely powerful? I said the Bible says he is. Liar.

The Bible says nothing is impossible for God. If that is true, he could make suffering unnecessary. Suffering exists. Therefore God is either not really infinitely powerful and the Bible is wrong or God is not totally good. Not existing at all qualifies as both. That is the issue that led to this thread.