Thread: Can god create a rock so big...

Originally Posted by Mark75

Can you explain why this is invalid? If god cannot do something (such as limit himself) that is by definition a limitation. Limitations are things you can't do.

I thought I explained enough; I broke it down. You're saying it is a limitation that something is unlimited? You're saying it is a limitation that something is unable to contradict itself? Is existence "limited" to existence only? This is just word games.

The "limit" is defined as a restriction of ability. Yet to be able to be limited is not actually an ability to begin with, in the context of the unlimited, and that itself, by definition, has no reason to be contradictory. That which is infinite is not limited to itself, it is unlimited itself. "Restriction to restriction" is redundant.

If something infinite can intrinsically and simultaneously be finite, elaborate, and explain why that should prove that it is only infinite. If this itself, is your argument against it, you're mixing paradigms.

Originally Posted by Mark75

Correct, however not being able to destroy or diminish yourself is a limitation if doing so out of the scope of your ability. Can god do _____? If god has no limit to his power, it shouldn't matter what you put in the blank, the answer should be yes. You are suggesting that placing "destroy himself" returns the answer no. This must mean that you think that god has certain restrictions on his ability. It seems like you're getting frustrated because the definition of omnipotence UM is using is illogical, paradoxical and silly. But that is exactly the point UM is trying to highlight. The point he and I are trying to make is that omnipotence is impossible. And really, the definition he is using is the only really accurate and relevant one. The only other sense which "omnipotence" could be used otherwise in this kind of context would be a hyperbolic one to simply indicate an extreme (but not unlimited) amount of power, in which case it'd just make more sense to say that there are certain things god cannot do.

"Not being able to destroy yourself" is neither an ability nor a limitation; coming from something that is indestructible! That which is non-linear cannot be destroyed or opposed. Both "no ability for self-destruction" and "infinite, indestructible power" are the same, and are importantly by definition. You just seem to want this to disprove or contradict itself, but it can't occur because it is not arguable.

Originally Posted by Noogah

"however not being able to destroy or diminish yourself is a limitation"

God never said that he couldn't.

God never said anything.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The contradictions prove the absurdity of the idea of omnipotence.

The contradictions are in your argument. You're not seeing that they are not applicable. They're exclusively within your argument alone and really have no way to apply, and if they did, Reality wouldn't exist.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

It doesn't matter what you put after "cannot" in that sentence. It automatically creates a contradiction. (as Mark said) That is exactly what I was illustrating. There is no "cannot" with an omnipotent being. That is why omnipotence is an absurd principle. The nature of it contradicts itself.

Ok here's another example.

God one with all Reality - the Absolute. But Reality cannot become non-Reality and neither can non-Reality become Reality. This is the all-encompassing Omnipotence; there is nothing outside of itself.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

My point is valid. The contradictions I am talking about are not. The invalidity you are talking about is actually the nature of omnipotence. It is self-contradictory and invalid. Exactly.

Once again you're not really saying anything, but just repeating nonsense. Again, if something infinite can intrinsically and simultaneously be finite, elaborate, and explain why that should prove that it is only infinite.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Infinite power is the ability to do ANYTHING, even be destroyed.

Why? What makes it infinite power then?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

If something cannot allow itself to be destroyed, that is something it CANNOT do. It is therefore not omnipotent.

LOL No, therefore it is Omnipotent. That "it is something it cannot do" is beside the point that it cannot be itself.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

You are talking about invincibility, which is a quality an omnipotent being could have IF it wanted it. Invincibility and infinite power are not the same thing.

No, my point is: Invincibility and infinite power are one and the same. And because they are, there is nothing an Omnipotent being really needs to do at all, but simply be itself. There is no need to do anything because that would imply limitation, a task, and a requirement to be fulfilled or a need to travel from here to there. It is hard to understand because it falls within the non-dualistic and nonlinear paradigm. It stands on its own, like Reality. Self evident, yet obscured by conceptualization.

Really, the contradictions are not mine. They are what you run into when you examine infinite power hard enough, and infinite power is what the Bible says God has. Invincibility is the nature of being undestroyable. Infinite power is the ability to DO ANYTHING. An infinitely powerful being can be invincible if it wants to be, but it does not have to. Not being able to give up infinite power is not part of the definition of infinite power. You made that up. If there is anything whatsoever a being cannot do, it is not infinitely powerful. I am tired of explaining this to you. My face is blue. I know you get my point by now. Good luck to you.

Originally Posted by WakataDreamer

OMG I THOUGHT I ALREADY ELEPHANT CRUSHED THIS

But God is here. More importantly, I am here. Your efforts are in vain.

Originally Posted by God_Almighty

i am outside and i am inside because i am omniwhatsits so that means im everywhere even inside you and under your bed im like a stalker that stalks everybody all the time because im god man

I'll get my buddies here to help me then. They're on their way. Start running.

It is not hyperbole, that is the actual definition of the word. The vast majority of people who use the word, means just what I said. For all practical purposes there is no difference between being able to do everything, and being able to do everything minus illogical and nonsensical things. It is unreasonable to demand, that everyone stop to explain the difference between them, whenever they are speaking about the subject. The fact is, the bible never makes the claim that you say it does. The only reason you say it does, is because as far as you know, it never goes into details explaining the obscure and hardly used definition of the world. Though since you never actually read the bible, you wouldn't know.

In fact, if you were to say infinitely powerful you could still make the claim that it does not include contradicting and illogical powers. They are not real limits on his power, and even if you thought they were he would still be infinitely more powerful than anyone on earth.

I give up. You guys have totally lost me.

The desire for the inability to lift a rock is the very Love that God is. The One and Whole created the Many and Seperate to Know Itself by way of the splendid contrast we find in this dualistic 'reality'. In this wonderful world of opposites God truly can Know the experience of being 'unable to lift a rock'. This beautiful, Divine 'forgetting' is what allows God this seemingly paradoxical 'power'.

I would STRONGLY and FERVENTLY recommend "A Course in Miracles" to any one seeking the Light.

Love,

Daen.

Originally Posted by Alric

It is not hyperbole, that is the actual definition of the word. The vast majority of people who use the word, means just what I said. For all practical purposes there is no difference between being able to do everything, and being able to do everything minus illogical and nonsensical things. It is unreasonable to demand, that everyone stop to explain the difference between them, whenever they are speaking about the subject. The fact is, the bible never makes the claim that you say it does. The only reason you say it does, is because as far as you know, it never goes into details explaining the obscure and hardly used definition of the world. Though since you never actually read the bible, you wouldn't know.

None of the verses I quoted use the word "omnipotent", so the back seat definion you are conveniently using is irrelevant.

How do you know whether or not I've ever read the Bible? I was a Christian until I was 16. Leaping to conclusions about me is not going to get you around what I have said.

Originally Posted by Alric

In fact, if you were to say infinitely powerful you could still make the claim that it does not include contradicting and illogical powers.

You are talking about limits on power. Infinite power involves the absence of limits.

Originally Posted by Alric

They are not real limits on his power

That's just ridiculous. If they limit his power, as in prevent him from doing certain things, they are limits on his power.

Originally Posted by Alric

even if you thought they were he would still be infinitely more powerful than anyone on earth.

Big fucking deal.

I know you get my point. I'm through in here until new material shows up.

guys quit arguing now im going to go to bed yes even god sleeps so dont keep arguing while im gone ok stop arguing or ill damn you all to hell

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Really, the contradictions are not mine. They are what you run into when you examine infinite power hard enough, and infinite power is what the Bible says God has. Invincibility is the nature of being undestroyable. Infinite power is the ability to DO ANYTHING. An infinitely powerful being can be invincible if it wants to be, but it does not have to. Not being able to give up infinite power is not part of the definition of infinite power. You made that up. If there is anything whatsoever a being cannot do, it is not infinitely powerful. I am tired of explaining this to you. My face is blue. I know you get my point by now. Good luck to you. .

Separating the concept of Omnipotence from that of infinite power doesn't get you anywhere really. Remember that you are talking about God, and so put the issue into context and consider that God's own destruction is impossible. Wants and deeds also don't exist for God.

Sure I do get your point. But you need to address my points; you seem to be ignoring certain questions too. You're not blue in the face yet.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

None of the verses I quoted use the word "omnipotent", so the back seat definion you are conveniently using is irrelevant.

What's the use in blocking out important, well established concepts for those that are potentially flawed; those that you don't even believe in? Just for argument's sake?

The same thing applies to all the quotes you made. We already been through that. If you actually read the entire paragraph the quotes are in, and took it in context, and read it the way normal people read things, then you would come to the same conclusion as everyone else does. Your problem is that you are reading it out of context, and in a way that people do not actually talk, and you are doing it on purpose.

Yeah people. Admit it. We've been looping through the same old stuff the whole time.

Yeah, he's doing it on purpose and he's just making his argument more and more circular.

I think we're all at fault. I mean, I find it funny! Both parties rebuke the other parties with the same rebuke. The oter party comes back with the same rebuke, and it loops. I I I dont think that this thread is going anywhere, except for stretching each others brains.

That is not exactly true. While he has been repeating the same thing over and over, we have tried atleast a half of dozen ways to explain it our side, and providing information on a many verity of things.

You people raise the question of where dishonesty ends and delusion begins.

Funny, I never recall having brought up such a topic.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Funny, I never recall having brought up such a topic.

Not everything about a person's behavior is intentional or realized by him.

lol guys you have given me plenty of things to lol about lol

Oh you.

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

Oh you.

Oh me oh you

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Not everything about a person's behavior is intentional or realized by him.

And you pretty much prove that fact beyond the shadow of a doubt.

Originally Posted by Noogah

And you pretty much prove that fact beyond the shadow of a doubt.

Hahaha, I actually lol'd at that

Could you be a little less specific?

Originally Posted by God_Almighty

Oh me oh you

Oh me oh my

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Could you be a little less specific?

to be less specific...