Originally Posted by Rainman
I think it's awsome that you're highly trained in martial arts. That would be a factor I never considered, and really don't know how it would go, because I am completely ignorant about the mental and physical discipline that that requires.
Martial arts is just one of my many activities that require determination and willpower. I have a habit of straining myself in order to tap more power out of me, whatever the activity might be.
Originally Posted by Rainman
What I can do is give the illusion of the feeling of the "presence of god" or whathave you, and I only do that to prove that when people are feeling the "presence of the holy spirit" they are feeling nothing more than electrical impulses that stimulate certain parts of their body and mind, and that can be completely recreated in its full intensity at anytime by anyone who even remotely knows what they're doing.
True that. I don't doubt that you succeeded in arising such a feelings. Yet, such a frail emotion is not nearly enough to sway somebody who doesn't let his heart to rule over his mind. I would never dare such a circumstancial and weak evidence to change my views anyway. I know a lot about recreating emotions and feelings, since that is a form of meditation I practice. Recreating sounds, visual images, tastes, smells or feelings via meditation and focus.
Originally Posted by Rainman
They just think they came up with ideas on their own accord. If you live in America, and English is your primary language, I guarantee you these things have affected you in some way.
Naturally everything influences our lives somehow and in some degree. Again, a sceptical and logical mind is always harder to get doubted than emotional one.
Originally Posted by Rainman
You're right though- no human can completely control another. I don't have any reason to believe that is possible. That said, humans can MOSTLY control other humans. You said it yourself-- what's religion? media?
Nothing is absolute. I have always thought that why people believe so much in any authority? Just because something is printed on a newspaper or seen in tv, doesn't make it any less vulnerable for false manipulation. People just shouldn't believe that much in anything.
In my opinion, faith is open-mindedness, as long as that's what it remains. For me that's true. And no, I cause you absolutely no harm by believing what I believe. And I, like many others, don't stand on what I believe in as if it's the one truth. This is the problem with words. To you, faith seems to mean something completely different from what it means to me.
Here we disagree. You should see the other religious threads that go around with the term open mindeness. Now, if we think the term faith how it is generally accepted as :
1. confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, an idea, or a thing.
2. belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
3. loyalty or allegiance to a person or thing; esp. fidelity to a promise.
4. the theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
You didn't answer my question though, so I'll specify it further- Does my "belief" that after I die, I will come back in a new way in any way harm you?
Now, if I think it straight, no. Yet, since it is belief it can become twisted. It can influence your thinking and subtetly influence your choices. It has the cooking materials for something. You have a strong faith that you will be reborn. There is no proof for life after death. Thus, it could get into your head that you can do whatever you want, since you will be reborn regardless. It is pretty much same like the thinking of "if I kill myself for sake of the holy war, I'll get to the heaven." This is the core reason why faith is not a good thing. There is no need for faith, so why to create it? Is life too boring? Is there a need to spice it with romantic beliefs? This is my life-time-pondering. Why to believe? There is no logical answer, so it must be an emotional one.
I occasionally share my thoughts on things like that with others. I do not impose them upon people, nor would I ever be as arrogant as to say "this is the way it happens and there's no alternative," because you are absolutely right. People like that will never know truth. I may, because in my opinion, being willing to understand science as fact, and yet be willing to accept that there is a lot of shit we can't even begin to understand, and not be so arrogant as to believe that we already know absolutely everything, and thus, everything that is not backed by science is bullshit.
No need to get too hot with the science. All we need is real evidence and proof. True, science is based on that, but it is only logical to crave for REAL EVIDENCE before believing something to be true. Cheers to you that you don't impose your thoughts to others. I don't think anything as ruling authority. Not even science. Still, science has very good methods of ruling out the obvious flaws of theories. It has good requirements for proof. I don't believe we know absolutely everything. I am a nihilist. I don't simply believe. Anything is virtually possible, but only fools go around believing things without proof.
It's just not true. The "if you can't prove it, then it doesn't exist" mentality, is just as arrogant, close-minded, and frankly, just plain unfortunate of a mindset as the hardcore believers who pick an ideology, say "this is the only way, and everyone else is dumb, because it's OBVIOUS that (blah blah blah)." It's just as arrogant. The only difference is, at least the non-believer has SOME basis for spewing his bullshit. But like I always say, science can prove what there is, but not what there isn't. To me, you are not open-minded until you are willing to accept things from both ends.
I accept the possiblity of both ends. Again, belief and faith are completely irrelevant here. The willingness to accept something as possibilty has nothing to do with faith. Faith is not needed. Openess to ideas needs a rational and sceptical mind behind it to be succesful and not to destroy one.
Now, I already know what you'll likely say next, so I will say it for you. I too believe things when I see evidence of them. Most people who are non-believers (what a generic term- non believers in what?) are the same way. I admit, that I don't need science to prove all things, as you perhaps might.
I am no scientist. I just need proof. Good proof. Emotions or sensations are not that for me. Why? You have answered that yourself in the very beginning. I admit the possibility of fact when I see evidence. Yet, I regard nothing as truth. Everything can change, world is in constant chaos and turmoil. It would be foolish to believe something lasted forever.
But that's my point. I am willing to be open to the possibility of things that seem reasonable to me based on a combination of personal experience, and scientific aspects that we don't fully understand, without needing concrete scientific evidence. To me, that is open-mindedness. My point is, regardless of what you believe, and what I believe, we all should respect one another.
I can respect people according to their beliefs. Yet, they will lose my respect due to their actions. Too bad that for hard core believers their actions quickly pull the ground beneath them. Mutual respect is the basis of all human relationships.
Otherwise, you're generalizing. "All believers are idiots who create problems in the world." yes, I'm aware that none of you said that, but there are people who do. Hell, there are people in this forum, who say things like that. It's ignorant. Where's the "science" to back that up? Because of course, you realize, that general statements like that, even excluding the word "all" is technically, by definition, a belief, and thus the utterer of that statement is not only a moron, but a hypocrite. Get my drift?
Not quite that. More accuratetly. All humans are idiots who create problems and chaos in the world. Yet those who belief are the only ones who think they are righteous doing so. I don't justify my actions, if I "wrong" somebody I never get the excuses. Only real "excuse" I have is that this is how I lead my life. I don't drag any supernaturalities or whatsoever in it. I don't throw the responsibility onto any other being or belief. The concept of moral is trivial to me. This is the reason why I find it hilarious when some people think that they had the right of doing so or have a higher moral ground than the other guy. We all are the same. Only justification to do something is merely the capability of doing so.
Just be nice to one another. Despite what you might think, my thoughts and beliefs and ideas have nothing to do with you. They will never cause you any harm or danger. So don't bash me for what I choose to think about. You are entitled to your own beliefs and opinons and thoughts and theories, which I may or may not agree with, but I don't DISRESPECT you for them.
There is difference with a debate and a conversation. If we conversate there is no way I would get hurt by exchanging different views. If somebody tries to convert me, well then I get nasty.
So anyway, that's the point of this thread. To try to get people to stop bashing people. I don't agree with most scientologists. I don't agree with most Christians/Catholics whatever. I think it's all rubbish. But my best friend is a completely devout Catholic, and I have no problem with that. We never argue, we occasionally jest, but when we do debate, it's always very neutral. Neither of us get hard feelings about it. He shares his perspective with me, I share mine with him, I share why I agree or disagree and he does the same.
Well that is my point too. Keep belief inside your mind and you live a lot more peaceful life. I have many type of aquintances who belief in many sorts of things. I can live with them. I just see no point.
There's no need for all of the hostility that a lot of people throw on each other. All it does is add hate to the world. Some of the greatest people in the world were religious and chose to do beautiful things with it. There are goods and evils of every aspect of faith, including the non-believers, (though in my experience, the non-believers tend to be less radical.) Mother Theresa is an obvious example, but there are people all over the world who do that same thing. And yes, while doing so, many of those groups preach about the "word of god." But those people who do beautiful things for people, and commit random acts of kindness tend to go unnoticed by non-believers.
I am pretty neutral against good vs evil setting. I just regret that some people are delusional and think they are doing right thing because of their beliefs. You don't need that faith to be anything.
Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel as though non-believers (i'm just going to continue using that term for the purposes of this post. Sorry if it seems general) try to convince themselves that people who believe in something are somehow evil just because they have a different point of view that you think is inferior. So you (again, not literally YOU people here-- just in general 'people') try to justify your rudeness and blatent and outward detest of these people and their beliefs by convincing yourself that they're evil, when in fact, there is almost no basis for that.
Again the evil stuff. There is nothing evil in it. Evil doesn't exist. Disorder is the word. Their minds get messed up because of their beliefs. I just can stand the fact that they justificate due something they have come up with. I can start believing in a giant sewer rat who gives me right to kill everyone I see and rewards me with great fortune and power. I call that delusion. Justification via belief. If they only had the guts and admit that "I have no right doing this but I will keep doing it because I want to, I yearn it. Then I just mask it with some belief so people will think I am right." That abolishes the delusion. That settles the score with me. Everyone is free to do what they want. They can belief if they want. But I just regard it as cowardice ( or delusion) if they think like I have explained.
You're all about proving things, right? So how can one have such a simplistic view of such an insanely large group of people?
A general race if we are accurate. I don't keep humans in high esteem, including myself. This is the reason. We are just animals. To abolish all that we have created in order to keep the illusion up and to realize that we have no justifications, no morals, no excuses to wear as a cloak. We are just a bunch of hedonistic, unfortunatetly a bit more intelligent animals, that want everything.
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