Thread: why

why would God still create us if he knows whether or not we'll choose him. He knows we'll suffer right? so why would he do that? I guess im just confused as to why.

A question asked a lot. I don't believe in God, but I can answer the question in a religious person's point of view.

It is because God wants us to learn something through life, so we can have good souls or something.

Why
Are we still asking these questions when we know there really aren't any religious people to ask these questions to? Especially since they've been asked so many times...?

To play the Devil's (Angel's...?) advocate here, I'll answer with an old alternative mindset.

God gave us free will, and thus the power to refuse or choose God's love. If he hadn't, we wouldn't have chosen death and sin instead of love. Short answer.

Slash is a little off, but has the right idea. There would be no point if we were all rule following robots.

Yea, I can't explain it well, but I know what I'm talking about.

I'm sorry Slash, but I need to sig that.

Haha. Cause it's stupid, or cause it's funny out of context, or what?

A little of both. No offense meant, we all slip up every once in a while

If God is supposed to be omniscient, then God is aware of everything that goes
on even within our individual selves. God essentially experiences social
interaction, emotions, and things like belief and lack thereof through us, much
in the same way our brain is still aware of the interaction of dream characters
in our dreams on a subconscious level.

Originally Posted by Invader

If God is supposed to be omniscient, then God is aware of everything that goes
on even within our individual selves. God essentially experiences social
interaction, emotions, and things like belief and lack thereof through us, much
in the same way our brain is still aware of the interaction of dream characters
in our dreams on a subconscious level.

If that's the case, the state of the human race shows god has got to be one miserable fuck.

Humanity is not the only thing that exists, and we are not restricted only to suffering.

Originally Posted by Rozzy

why would God still create us if he knows whether or not we'll choose him. He knows we'll suffer right? so why would he do that? I guess im just confused as to why.

God has given you unlimited freedom. The decision and the intent is yours, and yours is Gods.

Originally Posted by really

God has given you unlimited freedom. The decision and the intent is yours, and yours is Gods.

Unlimited? Can you go back in time and poke your head out of my computer screen yesterday?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Unlimited? Can you go back in time and poke your head out of my computer screen yesterday?

If you know how to do it, and the current circumstances are favorable, you can do it.

Originally Posted by Rozzy

why would God still create us if he knows whether or not we'll choose him. He knows we'll suffer right? so why would he do that? I guess im just confused as to why.

Originally Posted by Xei

It's because God doesn't exist.

^This

Originally Posted by really

If you know how to do it, and the current circumstances are favorable, you can do it.

Which we don't and they're not and we can't, and on top of that, it goes against the very laws of reality. If you know how to achieve such circumstances, I would like to see you summon a clone of yourself and grapple to the death with it.

Originally Posted by Mario92

Which we don't and they're not and we can't, and on top of that, it goes against the very laws of reality. If you know how to achieve such circumstances, I would like to see you summon a clone of yourself and grapple to the death with it.

It doesn't go against laws of reality. The laws are defined as the circumstances and environment, but also the possibility that you can do something (or not). Summoning a clone is not something I can do.

Originally Posted by really

If you know how to do it, and the current circumstances are favorable, you can do it.

At the present time, you can't, so there's a limit right there.

Originally Posted by really

God has given you unlimited freedom. The decision and the intent is yours, and yours is Gods.

According to the lore, this god is all mighty, which means he/she/it is all knowing, which means he/she/it knows what you'll do in life, which means he/she/it knows you'll burn, which means you're following a destiny, which means you don't have a choice.
Thus, this god is not giving you a choice, he/she/it is sentencing you to eternal damnation from before you're even born. If this was a human being being judged, he or she would be called a cold-hearted bastard, I believe.

I've asked many Christan's this. I too do not get it. This is the kind of thing in the thread, "Even if God Existed I Wouldn't Worship him"

Imagine how boring it would be if you knew everything that was about to happen.
Just because God CAN know something, doesn't mean he wants to take advantage of that foresight.

I looked up some info. It's a bit to read, but it might help...

"Does God know in advance everything that people will do?

The question then arises: Is his exercise of foreknowledge infinite, without limit? Does he foresee and foreknow all future actions of all his creatures, spirit and human? And does he foreordain such actions or even predestinate what shall be the final destiny of all his creatures, even doing so before they have come into existence?

Or, is God’s exercise of foreknowledge selective and discretionary, so that whatever he chooses to foresee and foreknow, he does, but what he does not choose to foresee or foreknow, he does not? And, instead of preceding their existence, does God’s determination of his creatures’ eternal destiny await his judgment of their course of life and of their proved attitude under test? The answers to these questions must necessarily come from the Scriptures themselves and the information they provide concerning God’s actions and dealings with his creatures, including what has been revealed through his Son, Christ Jesus.—1Co 2:16.

Predestinarian view. The view that God’s exercise of his foreknowledge is infinite and that he does foreordain the course and destiny of all individuals is known as predestinarianism. Its advocates reason that God’s divinity and perfection require that he be omniscient (all-knowing), not only respecting the past and present but also regarding the future. According to this concept, for him not to foreknow all matters in their minutest detail would evidence imperfection. Examples such as the case of Isaac’s twin sons, Esau and Jacob, are presented as evidence of God’s foreordaining creatures before their birth (Ro 9:10-13); and texts such as Ephesians 1:4,*5 are cited as evidence that God foreknew and foreordained the future of all his creatures even before the start of creation.

To be correct, this view would, of course, have to harmonize with all the factors previously mentioned, including the Scriptural presentation of God’s qualities, standards, and purposes, as well as his righteous ways in dealing with his creatures. (Re 15:3,*4) We may properly consider, then, the implications of such a predestinarian view.

This concept would mean that, prior to creating angels or earthling man, God exercised his powers of foreknowledge and foresaw and foreknew all that would result from such creation, including the rebellion of one of his spirit sons, the subsequent rebellion of the first human pair in Eden (Ge 3:1-6; Joh 8:44), and all the bad consequences of such rebellion down to and beyond this present day. This would necessarily mean that all the wickedness that history has recorded (the crime and immorality, oppression and resultant suffering, lying and hypocrisy, false worship and idolatry) once existed, before creation’s beginning, only in the mind of God, in the form of his foreknowledge of the future in all of its minutest details.

If the Creator of mankind had indeed exercised his power to foreknow all that history has seen since man’s creation, then the full weight of all the wickedness thereafter resulting was deliberately set in motion by God when he spoke the words: “Let us make man.” (Ge 1:26) These facts bring into question the reasonableness and consistency of the predestinarian concept; particularly so, since the disciple James shows that disorder and other vile things do not originate from God’s heavenly presence but are “earthly, animal, demonic” in source.—Jas 3:14-18.

Infinite exercise of foreknowledge? The argument that God’s not foreknowing all future events and circumstances in full detail would evidence imperfection on his part is, in reality, an arbitrary view of perfection. Perfection, correctly defined, does not demand such an absolute, all-embracing extension, inasmuch as the perfection of anything actually depends upon its measuring up completely to the standards of excellence set by one qualified to judge its merits. (See PERFECTION.) Ultimately, God’s own will and good pleasure, not human opinions or concepts, are the deciding factors as to whether anything is perfect.—De 32:4; 2Sa 22:31; Isa 46:10.

To illustrate this, God’s almightiness is undeniably perfect and is infinite in capacity. (1Ch 29:11,*12; Job 36:22; 37:23) Yet his perfection in strength does not require him to use his power to the full extent of his omnipotence in any or in all cases. Clearly he has not done so; if he had, not merely certain ancient cities and some nations would have been destroyed, but the earth and all in it would have been obliterated long ago by God’s executions of judgment, accompanied by mighty expressions of disapproval and wrath, as at the Flood and on other occasions. (Ge 6:5-8; 19:23-25,*29; compare Ex 9:13-16; Jer 30:23,*24.) God’s exercise of his might is therefore not simply an unleashing of limitless power but is constantly governed by his purpose and, where merited, tempered by his mercy.—Ne 9:31; Ps 78:38,*39; Jer 30:11; La 3:22; Eze 20:17.

Similarly, if, in certain respects, God chooses to exercise his infinite ability of foreknowledge in a selective way and to the degree that pleases him, then assuredly no human or angel can rightly say: “What are you doing?” (Job 9:12; Isa 45:9; Da 4:35) It is therefore not a question of ability, what God can foresee, foreknow, and foreordain, for “with God all things are possible.” (Mt 19:26) The question is what God sees fit to foresee, foreknow, and foreordain, for “everything that he delighted to do he has done.”—Ps 115:3.

Selective exercise of foreknowledge. The alternative to predestinarianism, the selective or discretionary exercise of God’s powers of foreknowledge, would have to harmonize with God’s own righteous standards and be consistent with what he reveals of himself in his Word. In contrast with the theory of predestinarianism, a number of texts point to an examination by God of a situation then current and a decision made on the basis of such examination.

Thus, at Genesis 11:5-8 God is described as directing his attention earthward, surveying the situation at Babel, and, at that time, determining the action to be taken to break up the unrighteous project there. After wickedness developed at Sodom and Gomorrah, Jehovah advised Abraham of his decision to investigate (by means of his angels) to “see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it.” (Ge 18:20-22; 19:1) God spoke of ‘becoming acquainted with Abraham,’ and after Abraham went to the point of attempting to sacrifice Isaac, Jehovah said, “For now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”—Ge 18:19; 22:11,*12; compare Ne 9:7,*8; Ga 4:9.

Selective foreknowledge means that God could choose not to foreknow indiscriminately all the future acts of his creatures. This would mean that, rather than all history from creation onward being a mere rerun of what had already been foreseen and foreordained, God could with all sincerity set before the first human pair the prospect of everlasting life in an earth free from wickedness. His instructions to his first human son and daughter to act as his perfect and sinless agents in filling the earth with their offspring and making it a paradise, as well as exercising control over the animal creation, could thus be expressed as the grant of a truly loving privilege and as his genuine desire toward them—not merely as the giving of a commission that, on their part, was foredoomed to failure. God’s arranging for a test by means of “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad” and his creation of “the tree of life” in the garden of Eden also would not be meaningless or cynical acts, made so by his foreknowing that the human pair would sin and never be able to eat of “the tree of life.”—Ge 1:28; 2:7-9, 15-17; 3:22-24.

To offer something very desirable to another person on conditions known beforehand to be unreachable is recognized as both hypocritical and cruel. The prospect of everlasting life is presented in God’s Word as a goal for all persons, one possible to attain. After urging his listeners to ‘keep on asking and seeking’ good things from God, Jesus pointed out that a father does not give a stone or a serpent to his child that asks for bread or a fish. Showing his Father’s view of disappointing the legitimate hopes of a person, Jesus then said: “Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?”—Mt 7:7-11.

Thus, the invitations and opportunities to receive benefits and everlasting blessings set before all men by God are bona fide. (Mt 21:22; Jas 1:5,*6) He can in all sincerity urge men to ‘turn back from transgression and keep living,’ as he did with the people of Israel. (Eze 18:23, 30-32; compare Jer 29:11,*12.) Logically, he could not do this if he foreknew that they were individually destined to die in wickedness. (Compare Ac 17:30,*31; 1Ti 2:3,*4.) As Jehovah told Israel: “Nor said I to the seed of Jacob, ‘Seek me simply for nothing, you people.’ I am Jehovah, speaking what is righteous, telling what is upright.*.*.*. Turn to me and be saved, all you at the ends of the earth.”—Isa 45:19-22.

In a similar vein, the apostle Peter writes: “Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise [of the coming day of reckoning], as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.” (2Pe 3:9) If God already foreknew and foreordained millenniums in advance precisely which individuals would receive eternal salvation and which individuals would receive eternal destruction, it may well be asked how meaningful such ‘patience’ of God could be and how genuine his desire could be that ‘all attain to repentance.’ The inspired apostle John wrote that “God is love,” and the apostle Paul states that love “hopes all things.” (1Jo 4:8; 1Co 13:4,*7) It is in harmony with this outstanding, divine quality that God should exercise a genuinely open, kindly attitude toward all persons, he being desirous of their gaining salvation, until they prove themselves unworthy, beyond hope. (Compare 2Pe 3:9; Heb 6:4-12.) Thus, the apostle Paul speaks of “the kindly quality of God [that] is trying to lead you to repentance.”—Ro 2:4-6.

Finally if, by God’s foreknowledge, the opportunity to receive the benefits of Christ Jesus’ ransom sacrifice were already irrevocably sealed off from some, perhaps for millions of individuals, even before their birth, so that such ones could never prove worthy, it could not truly be said that the ransom was made available to all men. (2Co 5:14,*15; 1Ti 2:5,*6; Heb 2:9) The impartiality of God is clearly no mere figure of speech. “In every nation the man that fears [God] and works righteousness is acceptable to him.” (Ac 10:34,*35; De 10:17; Ro 2:11) The option is actually and genuinely open to all men “to seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us.” (Ac 17:26,*27) There is no empty hope or hollow promise set forth, therefore, in the divine exhortation at the end of the book of Revelation inviting: “Let anyone hearing say: ‘Come!’ And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.”—Re 22:17."

(Taken from Insight on the Scriptures, published by Jehovah's Witnesses)

If you're interested, the section has a lot more info, but what I pasted was most relevant.

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

Just because God CAN know something, doesn't mean he wants to take advantage of that foresight.

I didn't read all of that, but isn't it basically just irresponsible to not use your psychic powers if the consequences for not doing so can be so catastrophic? For that matter, you don't even need psychic powers to see the problem with putting the tree of knowledge in with the humans knowing what will happen if they eat from it. Why not just put it somewhere else and save everyone the trouble? Or use your psychic powers just to see if they'll eat from it and stop them? Is that not reasonable? But I suppose it was some kind of test. But what's the purpose of "testing" if you can just use your foresight powers to know the answer? Why are we "tested" when the price of failing the test is so extreme and the test itself is so unnecessary? What exactly is god trying to prove and who is he trying to prove it to?

Originally Posted by Rozzy

why would God still create us if he knows whether or not we'll choose him. He knows we'll suffer right? so why would he do that? I guess im just confused as to why.

In one world including both you and God, what meaningful distinction can exist between you and God? The question then becomes: why do you manifest and suffer?

By definition, an unreal or nonsensical God or gods does not exist. Only real God/s exist. It's fruitless to pursue or oppose the unreal.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

In one world including both you and God, what meaningful distinction can exist between you and God?

What do you mean by this? One is limited, the other is not.

Originally Posted by Invader

What do you mean by this? One is limited, the other is not.

Who is imposing the limits?

EDIT: I'm not trying to be cryptic here. My meaning is in the original statement that in one (real) world including both you and God, there is no meaningful boundary between the two.

In what sense? We would technically be parts of this God, just as a bolt would
be a part of the machine, but the difference between the two is that one is
just a piece, and the other a whole. I'm trying to understand your side of this.

Do you mean they are of the same essence?