Thread: Believers who hear the truth

Originally Posted by Praise

To be honest I have never herd of this council until you mentioned it. Perhaps you already have your opinion on this matter. Or maybe someone else has the answer.



Again this is something I'm not educated on. Maybe you know more than I do. You seem educated enough to ask the questions. I'm guessing you already have at least some answers in mind and I may learn something from them even. Maybe there is someone else that can discuss this. I would have to research it.



Interpreting the bible is no doubt going to cause some confusion as it is an ancient text handed down through history with many different versions. This is to be expected. The way I interpret it is to follow my own guidance of what I find is correct through what I believe to be the truth. That is what I then teach. I use logic and experience to find my own truth just like anything else. I cannot say I follow any particular form of Christianity to the dot. However I do believe there was a person named Christ and I do believe he was an exceptional and advanced being. That he has eternal life. That through him we also inherit eternal life. That he died on the cross to demonstrate gods love.



The bible may be important to consider. But to be honest I'm not that familiar with it at all. I don't go into detail to study it that closely or it's history. As is evident by my ignorance from your questions. I'm not a scholar on it. Most of it doesn't make much sense to me and is even boring. I don't know about the revisions I have only read some parts here and there. It's difficult to make sense of it in general. The inspired word of god only goes so far as it was written from witnesses to historical events. That's just my opinion. Gods word can be a very relative term. To me it just means what truth is.

There seems to be a lot of intelligent skillful debaters on this forum. I look forward to more discussion in the future.



No I am definitely not this person.

Well, I have some other questions for you then. With all of what you said in mind, why are you a christian? This is not intended to be insulting, but I would like a frank and honest answer that doesn't delve into feeling Jesus' love or just 'knowing' in your heart that Jesus is lord. If you don't know the bible, what evidence do you really have of Jesus? If you don't know where the Christian religion comes from, how can you be so sure of its varacity? How do you know the feeling of holy spirit that you feel isn't coming from Vishnu, or Freyja or Ceres, or even just from yourself? Without having read Jesus' teachings, even the secondhand account that comes from the bible, how can you even know that he is worthy of your praise and servitude?

If you don't know the bible, what evidence do you really have of Jesus? If you don't know where the Christian religion comes from, how can you be so sure of its varacity? How do you know the feeling of holy spirit that you feel isn't coming from Vishnu, or Freyja or Ceres, or even just from yourself? Without having read Jesus' teachings, even the secondhand account that comes from the bible, how can you even know that he is worthy of your praise and servitude?

I never said I was a christian. Christianity is a religion. Yet my power comes from something known as faith. When someone argues against Christianity on here they are not even addressing my beliefs. I have my own philosophy from my personal experience. I know the power of Christ and of God through my faith and experience. I seek wisdom. Which may come from the bible or any other religion. Religion is faith oriented but still collective. It has it's benifits which I make use of.

However the same is for science. You may look for what you believe in with faith, and you will eventually prove it to yourself with science. You have your own understanding of science through your experience of it, and your faith in it. Science seeks to be objective. But that objectivity has it's own rules and regulations that are merely based on things like collectivism and the individuals perception. Science like religion, has it's benifits.

Originally Posted by Praise

I never said I was a christian.

!!!!!!!!!

Do you want to look at your first post again?

Sorry, it was just a bit misleading that's all.

I think you can still have the title of a 'christian' and not be associated with religion at the same time though.

PRAISE, welcome back.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Here is another question. Where does God get his authority? I don't think the Bible says anything about an election.

Originally Posted by Praise

I never said I was a christian. Christianity is a religion. Yet my power comes from something known as faith. When someone argues against Christianity on here they are not even addressing my beliefs. I have my own philosophy from my personal experience. I know the power of Christ and of God through my faith and experience. I seek wisdom. Which may come from the bible or any other religion. Religion is faith oriented but still collective. It has it's benifits which I make use of.

However the same is for science. You may look for what you believe in with faith, and you will eventually prove it to yourself with science. You have your own understanding of science through your experience of it, and your faith in it. Science seeks to be objective. But that objectivity has it's own rules and regulations that are merely based on things like collectivism and the individuals perception. Science like religion, has it's benifits.

You sound as though you think I disagree with this position, or as though it somehow addresses my questions. Neither of those are true. Your faith, although it may be powerful, does not give you knowledge of Christ. You could not have faith in Christ without having knowledge of him first. If your knowledge doesn't come from the bible, then where does it come from? The answer to this question is not the same as the answer to the question of the origin of your faith. Your faith may be real but misplaced. Without knowledge of this Christ fellow, you can't actually know that you have faith in him or something else.

Science cannot prove anything, it can only rationalize. Religion can't prove anything either, it can only justify.

I am not questioning your faith. I am questioning how you know that Christianity, and Christ in particular are the true objects of your faith when you know very little about them.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Here is another question. Where does God get his authority? I don't think the Bible says anything about an election.

I got this one.

Authority is not anticedent to God. Asking that question is like asking where does sunlight get the sun from.

Now, why do you think God has to gain authority from somewhere else?

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

I got this one.

Authority is not anticedent to God. Asking that question is like asking where does sunlight get the sun from.

Now, why do you think God has to gain authority from somewhere else?

Well he doesn't mean antecedent, but I guess you still understand.

The authority of God must be innate to what God is.

Originally Posted by really

Well he doesn't mean antecedent, but I guess you still understand.

He's asking where does God get his authority from, which applies an occurrence that must precede God. If something comes from something else that's constitutes a prior event. hence, antecedent. But it doesn't really matter it's not like he's actually going to respond anyway. He'll probably do his normal trolling routine and post a few senseless and idiotic photos and not give an intelligent response at all.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

He's asking where does God get his authority from, which applies an occurrence that must precede God. If something comes from something else that's constitutes a prior event. hence, antecedent.

I guess you agree that there was no election.

Sources do not have to work in a time sequence. I am asking for any kind of cause. So God's authority is supposed to be just some law of reality that has no cause? Is that what you are saying? Explain the basis of that. What rhyme or reason is there to it? What determines that the authority is there? What makes it authority?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I guess you agree that there was no election.

Sources do not have to work in a time sequence. I am asking for any kind of cause.

Nothing proceeds God so there is no cause.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

So God's authority is supposed to be just some law of reality that has no cause? Is that what you are saying? Explain the basis of that. What rhyme or reason is there to it? What determines that the authority is there? What makes it authority?

The answer is right above you.

Originally Posted by really

The authority of God must be innate to what God is.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

Nothing proceeds God so there is no cause.

Then you are saying God's authority just happens to have always existed for no reason. Reason is what keeps existence from being metaphysically chaotic. Nothing happens or exists without a reason. Uncaused circumstance is a nonsense concept.

Existence and nonexistence are based on each other, but neither was ever created. 2 + 2 = 4 because 1 + 1 = 2 and 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 4, but none of those facts have beginnings. They all have non-mathematical causes. Cause does not have to exist in a time order, but it has to exist.

What determines that God's "authority" is actually authority? You didn't answer that.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Then you are saying God's authority just happens to have always existed for no reason.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Existence and nonexistence are based on each other, but neither was ever created. 2 + 2 = 4 because 1 + 1 = 2 and 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 4, but none of those facts have beginnings. They all have non-mathematical causes. Cause does not have to exist in a time order, but it has to exist.

"Cause" exist ONLY in time.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

What determines that God's "authority" is actually authority? You didn't answer that.

I've already answered that question but I'll break it down further.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

What determines

This one part is the problem with your entire questioning. When you say "What determines?" you're requesting something prior to God.

The "What" in your questioning is begging an event, situation, occurrence or whatever that may be as a permanent establishment on the scene before God. I explained earlier that "nothing is before God" that was my answer.

And to go even further. It's really quite simple. God creates ALL and has natural authority over all that He creates. Authority is naturally within God and "comes" from God.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

"Cause" exist ONLY in time.

I just illustrated that it doesn't. Counter my points.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

I've already answered that question but I'll break it down further.



This one part is the problem with your entire questioning. When you say "What determines?" you're requesting something prior to God.

The "What" in your questioning is begging an event, situation, occurrence or whatever that may be as a permanent establishment on the scene before God. I explained earlier that "nothing is before God" that was my answer.

And to go even further. It's really quite simple. God creates ALL and has natural authority over all that He creates. Authority is naturally within God and "comes" from God.

No, that is not what I am asking. I am asking what says/decides/indicates that what God has qualifies as authority. Is it his might? Is might automatically right?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I just illustrated that it doesn't. Counter my points.

The only thing you illustrated was how several numbers "already established" when added together begets a different property, all within constraints of time. There is no such thing as 1 + 1 = 2 or 1 +1+1+1 =4 before time and causes. In order to get 2 or 4, 1 must cause each other 1 subsequently in order to get 2 or 4. You have no point as usual.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

No, that is not what I am asking. I am asking what says/decides/indicates that what God has qualifies as authority. Is it his might? Is might automatically right?

I've already answered that. Authority comes from God NATRUALLY, now what part of God does it come from? I have no idea. All you need to know is that God is the creator of authority and it comes directly from God as it's a naturalistic part of God essence.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

The only thing you illustrated was how several numbers "already established" when added together begets a different property, all within constraints of time. There is no such thing as 1 + 1 = 2 or 1 +1+1+1 =4 before time and causes. In order to get 2 or 4, 1 must cause each other 1 subsequently in order to get 2 or 4. You have no point as usual.

No, 1 + 1 = 2 did not cause 2 + 2 = 4 in a time sequence. They are based on each other without time being part of the mutual causality. ** is as many as * *, and ** next to ** is ****. Time is not necessary for that to be true. Time is nowhere in the picture. You have no argument, just an assertion, as usual.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

I've already answered that. Authority comes from God NATRUALLY, now what part of God does it come from? I have no idea. All you need to know is that God is the creator of authority and it comes directly from God as it's a naturalistic part of God essence.

You're playing dodgeball again. Why do you call what God has... authority? What defines it as authority? What qualifications does the property have that deem it to officially be "authority"?

Once you finally admit that you comprehend that, tell me why God gets to have such authority and why Hitler doesn't. Hitler created what Hitler called Hitler's version of authority. Does that make it automatically legitimate? Tell me where God gets the right to his supposed authority that you say is part of his essence. How is it legitimate?

Well what I do find interesting is this: How does a believer stand against the idea of all religions (or at least islam, judaism and christianity) originating from the same one, then at one point... diverged like Jezus actually did cos he was a Jew. How can each of them then still say they are the one 'true' belief? If in fact the 'true' belief was the one back before they diverged.

This is not fact, but there are too much similarities to ignore imo.
So I'm not saying does god exist, does he not exist blah blah blah. All pointless discussions. I'm just saying... if the above is correct, then it doesn't make sense does it o.O So what AM I to believe then if the very foundations is... you know, shaky.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

No, 1 + 1 = 2 did not cause 2 + 2 = 4 in a time sequence. They are based on each other without time being part of the mutual causality. ** is as many as * *, and ** next to ** is ****. Time is not necessary for that to be true. Time is nowhere in the picture. You have no argument, just an assertion, as usual.

Time is not necessary you say? Explain to me this then, Where did you get this (**) this (**) this (**) and this (**) from?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

You're playing dodgeball again. Why do you call what God has... authority?

Webster - Authority
Main Entry: au·thor·i·ty
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈthär-ə-tē, ȯ-, -ˈthȯr-\
Function: noun

a : power to influence or command thought, opinion, or behavior.

God has this.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

What defines it as authority?

a : power to influence or command thought, opinion, or behavior.

That's the defintion of authority and as I stated, God has had this before anything else existed.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

What qualifications does the property have that deem it to officially be "authority"?

a : power to influence or command thought, opinion, or behavior.

God has had these qualities before anything else existed.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Once you finally admit that you comprehend that, tell me why God gets to have such authority and why Hitler doesn't. Hitler created what Hitler called Hitler's version of authority.

Did Hitler not exercise what he deemed authority? Was his version of authority not established at some point in time? What do you mean why he doesn't get to have it. He "had" it and now he's dead.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Does that make it automatically legitimate?

It was legitimate to Hitler and the people who followed him because he had that power to influence, command thought, behavior and opinion.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Tell me where God gets the right to his supposed authority that you say is part of his essence. How is it legitimate?

That's the very reason why I asked you this question 8 post back that you never answered.

Originally Posted by Shadownightwing

Now, why do you think God has to gain authority from somewhere else?

answer that and you'll have your answer.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Originally Posted by Shadownightwing

He'll probably do his normal trolling routine and post a few senseless and idiotic photos and not give an intelligent response at all.

Told you this loser was predictable.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

Told you this loser was predictable.

To be honest neither of you are shining stars of perfect debaters.
I've read some of your posts before, what you say usually makes sense (Or atleast has a well thought out backing) but you come across as really condescending to me.

The whole idea that ANYONE is qualified to say whether or not a god exists is just dumb to me, no one knows for sure, and if a god does exist he is probably laughing at us with our petty little groups and divisions all 100% convinced that WE are the ones who got it right and the rest of the world is burning just for having being raised in a different culture.

You might've seen in a previous post me explaining why I don't think god exists, but that doesn't mean I'm 100% sure, it is just my opinion. Too many people press their opinions as facts and then wonder why people get pissed with them.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

Time is not necessary you say? Explain to me this then, Where did you get this (**) this (**) this (**) and this (**) from?

My keyboard. They represent numbers.

Got it? Now counter away.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

Webster - Authority
Main Entry: au·thor·i·ty
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈthär-ə-tē, ȯ-, -ˈthȯr-\
Function: noun

a : power to influence or command thought, opinion, or behavior.

God has this.


a : power to influence or command thought, opinion, or behavior.

That's the defintion of authority and as I stated, God has had this before anything else existed.



a : power to influence or command thought, opinion, or behavior.

God has had these qualities before anything else existed.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

Did Hitler not exercise what he deemed authority? Was his version of authority not established at some point in time? What do you mean why he doesn't get to have it. He "had" it and now he's dead.

Then, what makes it authority is its power. Now tell me what makes it legitimate. Might is right?

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

It was legitimate to Hitler and the people who followed him because he had that power to influence, command thought, behavior and opinion.

It was illegitimate because he was dictator scum who took over Germany and then lots of other countries without being elected to the positions. You're cool with that sort of thing?

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

That's the very reason why I asked you this question 8 post back that you never answered.

Because he is an asshole dictator otherwise.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

answer that and you'll have your answer.

I agree. The thing about asshole dictator who took over does answer it. It looks like we're on the same page now.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

Told you this loser was predictable.

Holy cow, I did post a picture after making my argument. I guess you got me there.

Originally Posted by Exdream

To be honest neither of you are shining stars of perfect debaters.

Instead of making empty comments like that, join the debate and show something.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

He's asking where does God get his authority from, which applies an occurrence that must precede God. If something comes from something else that's constitutes a prior event. hence, antecedent. But it doesn't really matter it's not like he's actually going to respond anyway. He'll probably do his normal trolling routine and post a few senseless and idiotic photos and not give an intelligent response at all.

Oh yes, I see. I'm with you on your points.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

No, 1 + 1 = 2 did not cause 2 + 2 = 4 in a time sequence. They are based on each other without time being part of the mutual causality. ** is as many as * *, and ** next to ** is ****. Time is not necessary for that to be true. Time is nowhere in the picture. You have no argument, just an assertion, as usual.

Universal Mind, do you know where causes do not exist? I.e. What are the implications of an Absolute Reality?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

You're playing dodgeball again. Why do you call what God has... authority? What defines it as authority? What qualifications does the property have that deem it to officially be "authority"?

Once you finally admit that you comprehend that, tell me why God gets to have such authority and why Hitler doesn't. Hitler created what Hitler called Hitler's version of authority. Does that make it automatically legitimate? Tell me where God gets the right to his supposed authority that you say is part of his essence. How is it legitimate?

Are you saying this is our opinion? Would you disagree that the earth's gravity has authority over that which has mass? Since when do we need to ask God whether he really has authority over all existence, which abides within Him? Be honest with yourself here, you are arguing fallaciously against that which stands beyond all argument.

Originally Posted by Exdream

The whole idea that ANYONE is qualified to say whether or not a god exists is just dumb to me, no one knows for sure, and if a god does exist he is probably laughing at us with our petty little groups and divisions all 100% convinced that WE are the ones who got it right and the rest of the world is burning just for having being raised in a different culture.

You don't reckon Jesus knew God for sure?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

My keyboard. They represent numbers.

Got it? Now counter away.

Sure no problem

Remember this one?

Originally Posted by Shadownightwing

"Cause" exist ONLY in time.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I just illustrated that it doesn't. Counter my points.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

They are based on each other without time being part of the mutual causality. ** is as many as * *, and ** next to ** is ****. Time is not necessary for that to be true. Time is nowhere in the picture.

You stated that you've illustrated that cause doesn't apply to time so, unless you and your keyboard are outside the scope of time, you haven't illustrated anything. Time is all over this little so-called example you've given. Now do you get it? Bottom line your argument is critically flawed, as are you.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Then, what makes it authority is its power. Now tell me what makes it legitimate. Might is right?

Hitler deemed his authority power from himself. History has demonstrated that he had authority, he obviously wasn't elected but yet he was able to harness authority. These are the facts no matter how you look at it. Do I think his authority was legitimate. NO. Does everyone think like me? No. Are there people in this world today that thinks his authority was legitimate? Yes. Hitlers authority was illegitimate to me because he was exactly as you stated, a dictator scum who tried taking over things that is not rightfully his.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

It was illegitimate because he was dictator scum who took over Germany and then lots of other countries without being elected to the positions. You're cool with that sort of thing?

Nah man, I'm not cool with people taking over things that is not rightfully theirs. I'll agree with you, he was an illegitimate dictator scum, but if you're trying to compare God's authority with Hitlers authority you need to re-evaluate your argument because they are nowhere near on the same level.

I asked you this question.

Originally Posted by Shadownightwing

Now, why do you think God has to gain authority from somewhere else?

and this was your answer?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Because he is an asshole dictator otherwise.

I agree. The thing about asshole dictator who took over does answer it. It looks like we're on the same page now.

First and foremost, you and I are not on the same page and we will never be on the same page. I am nowhere near in agreement with you on this answer. Second, you say God took over. Took over from who and what exactly????

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

Sure no problem

Remember this one?


You stated that you've illustrated that cause doesn't apply to time so, unless you and your keyboard are outside the scope of time, you haven't illustrated anything. Time is all over this little so-called example you've given. Now do you get it? Bottom line your argument is critically flawed, as are you.

No, I did not say cause does not apply to time. I said it does not apply to time in all cases. Understand?

Time was involved in the typing of my post, but not in the reality I illustrated with my typed explanation.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

Hitler deemed his authority power from himself. History has demonstrated that he had authority, he obviously wasn't elected but yet he was able to harness authority. These are the facts no matter how you look at it. Do I think his authority was legitimate. NO. Does everyone think like me? No. Are there people in this world today that thinks his authority was legitimate? Yes. Hitlers authority was illegitimate to me because he was exactly as you stated, a dictator scum who tried taking over things that is not rightfully his.

Exactly. That's how your God character did things too.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

Nah man, I'm not cool with people taking over things that is not rightfully theirs. I'll agree with you, he was an illegitimate dictator scum, but if you're trying to compare God's authority with Hitlers authority you need to re-evaluate your argument because they are nowhere near on the same level.

Explain.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

I asked you this question.



and this was your answer?


First and foremost, you and I are not on the same page and we will never be on the same page. I am nowhere near in agreement with you on this answer. Second, you say God took over. Took over from who and what exactly????

God didn't take over? Oh, so he was elected? Genenesis says God created the universe and in essence said, "I rule this bitch! Obey ME or else!!!" What's your version of the story?

Originally Posted by really

Universal Mind, do you know where causes do not exist? I.e. What are the implications of an Absolute Reality?

Say what?

Originally Posted by really

Are you saying this is our opinion? Would you disagree that the earth's gravity has authority over that which has mass? Since when do we need to ask God whether he really has authority over all existence, which abides within Him? Be honest with yourself here, you are arguing fallaciously against that which stands beyond all argument.

So God's power is what deems him an authority, huh? Then what makes his authority legitimate? In other words, why are you okay with the situation? Would you so enthusiastically accept a dictator's power?

UM just argues in pure rhetoric. No substance. There's no use arguing.

Originally Posted by really

UM just argues in pure rhetoric. No substance. There's no use arguing.

You're stumped already? Wow, that's the fastest you've ever turned over your king in a debate with me. You're getting soft.