Thread: The Nature of Satan

Originally Posted by Noogah

stuff

Skipped responding to my post there champ.

Also, I don't think this thread is so much about science vs creationism, rather people who think it's a lillll bit batshit fucking insane to believe every word of a book which has been warped and politically manipulated out of shape for the past 2000 years AND which was originally written by uneducated arabs in a desert society in one small corner of the world to explain what they couldn't understand, and to act as a creative output and work of art, as well as perpetuating the laws and ideologies of the time via enforcement by 'the ultimate tribal leader', that is, God.

Also I think it's mainly the old testament that's puzzling. it's FAR more reasonable to believe every word in the new testament, and even that's far out.

In which case the ratio seems far more reasonable of being 10:1

Also note the convenient side-step of the many, many contradictions he made when refering to Satan. You know, like the one where he wants world peace and harmony, and also to kill, rape, and maim. Still waiting for an answer to THAT one...

He didn't really respond to mine either. He just told me to read his posts. Can you please respond to this at least? Copypasta for you.

You also claim he is not against morals, yet he has no problem with lying, killing or stealing. Contradiction, no?

The apeal is that he wants world peace. Also it's quite difficult as a human to oppose someone who fully supports humanism.

To top it all off, it's highly likely that Satan=Dionysus, who is the only god I occasionally worship.

Carôusoul...I love you.

(you never replied about the whales: lol

also, I owe you a reply in some thread somewhere. getting it)

I love you too.


Also:

Originally Posted by nerve

oh, and why would Noah need to put whales in the ark when they live in water and the earth was supposed to be covered in...water

Guy has a sense of humour.

Um.....

Excuse me people,

There are two gigantic pages FILLED with atheists haggling me over stupid little details, and in one post, you expect me to answer ALL OF THEM!?

Excuse ME for skipping over a few of them!!!!!

Link me to your posts and I'll answer them.

Oh freaking brother.

Originally Posted by stonedape

You also claim he is not against morals, yet he has no problem with lying, killing or stealing. Contradiction, no?

No.

Indeed, he is not opposed to morals.

But he is not necessarily opposed to evil either.

Originally Posted by Noogah

There are two gigantic pages FILLED with atheists haggling me over stupid little details, and in one post, you expect me to answer ALL OF THEM!?

Ne-yo or ShadowNightWing would have done it for us. With added wall of text as well.

Originally Posted by Noogah

No.

Indeed, he is not opposed to morals.

But he is not necessarily opposed to evil either.

Is lying moral, or immoral?

What of stealing or killing?

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'

Taken out of your favorite book.

Personally, I consider these things immoral. They are permissible within certain contexts, but if you don't consider these things immoral, what do you consider immoral?

What is the difference between evil and immorality?

Originally Posted by stonedape

Is lying moral, or immoral?

What of stealing or killing?


Taken out of your favorite book.

Personally, I consider these things immoral. They are permissible within certain contexts, but if you don't consider these things immoral, what do you consider immoral?

What is the difference between evil and immorality?

I think using any set unbendable rules to define morality is a massive mistake. It oversimplifies the world. That's how you end up with absurd things happening. Cases should be judged morally on an individual basis rather than applying one blanket rule to everything.

There are very few total moral rules which there can't be any exceptions to. We can think of a thousand cases where it could be moral to kill a man, or to steal. We break down the true complexity and difficulty of this world by submitting to set rules.

Originally Posted by carousoul

Ne-yo or ShadowNightWing would have done it for us. With added wall of text as well.

Spoiler for Oh?:

Originally Posted by Carousoul

I think using any set unbendable rules to define morality is a massive mistake. It oversimplifies the world.

It does, which is why in the new testament, the Holy Spirit was given to Chrsitians. A fact often always overlooked by atheists.

Originally Posted by stonedape

Personally, I consider these things immoral.

I know you're trying to make a point here, but I am afraid that I am having a hard time seeing it. The commandments do not portray these things as moral.

Originally Posted by stonedape

What is the difference between evil and immorality?

I don't believe there is any.

I agree with everything Noogah has put in here. Now with that being said someone ask me some questions (related to this thread) so that we can get our debate on.

Also, I don't have all day either so let's get to it ASAP!

EDIT-- and just for the record Carousoul as well as Mario92 will not receives replies from me. Just for the simple fact. Anyone else outside of those two bring it!

are you serious?

(I'm not trying to be an ass, Shadow, I just don't believe it. if you seriously agree with all that would you elaborate?)

like how does this make any sense:

Originally Posted by Noogah

Originally Posted by stonedape

What is the difference between evil and immorality?

The same difference that exists between hot/cold, black/white, true/false, north/south.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

EDIT-- and just for the record Carousoul as well as Mario92 will not receives replies from me.

I thought we were friends. What happened. How d'we let this slip away?

Originally Posted by Noogah

It does, which is why in the new testament, the Holy Spirit was given to Chrsitians. A fact often always overlooked by atheists.

>Implying I'm an atheist.


Also, I never fully understood the meaning for God to revise the teachings of the old testament in the new. I'd have thought his power great enough that revision of rules would seem below that.

Originally Posted by nerve

are you serious?

As a heart-attack.

Originally Posted by nerve

(I'm not trying to be an ass, Shadow, I just don't believe it. if you seriously agree with all that would you elaborate?)

like how does this make any sense:

Originally Posted by Stonedape

What is the difference between evil and immorality?

Originally Posted by Noogah

The same difference that exists between hot/cold, black/white, true/false, north/south.

How does it not make sense? Is perfectly executed and makes tons of sense. I don't see a problem with this. Noogah is absolutely right, it's the same difference as the following that was mentioned.

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

I thought we were friends. What happened. How d'we let this slip away?

Don't read to much into that. I actually like you, so I prefer not to argue it up with you, that's basically it.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

Don't read to much into that. I actually like you, so I prefer not to argue it up with you, that's basically it.

That's really nice. Thankyou.

how manipulative would God have to be, to create a being with the power to create evil, and then blame that being for using his god-given gift to create evil - when all power comes from God?

Thats one pretty crappy God!!

Here is my alternative story. You can think of this as a FAIRY TALE.

Part 1: The root of all Evil
Dualism is problem that arises from seeing two opposites that are believed to be dualing, like good and evil. Or its a problem that arises when you see two opposites and believe they are SEPERATE. Like spirit and matter. Religion has instilled dualism. Such as telling us it's against our soul(spirit) to be horny(matter).

Is dualism true?

The truth is, and proven by science, everything is all the same stuff! Everything is energy. We are so essentially the same stuff, that your very essence is the same essence of the big bang that created the Universe.

Spirituality has been barking for thousands of years that all separation is an illusion. What does all separation being an illusion mean? Take any dualistic argument, such as good and evil - and it means that they are fundamentally the same exact thing.

Part 2: How is Good and Evil the Same thing?
It's simple. Think of the separate colors of the rainbow. They are actually all the same thing, light. Imagine that good and evil are gradient colors on a scale. The top colors is what we call 'good', the bottom colors are what we call 'evil'. But they are both the same thing on this scale of energy. So what is good and evil if they are same thing? What would be this gradient scale? This gradient scale is consciousness and how that consciousness views reality.

On the higher rungs of consciousness, everything is ONE. If you are in this consciousness you LOVE everyone and everything. To not love them is not love yourself. To cause them harm, is to cause yourself harm. This is the type of consciousness that Jesus and Buddha stood for.

Now lets jump in the opposite consciousness. What happens if you view everything as fundamentally separate? Suddenly you're in a world where life is "me vs. them"!!! Where harming others is justifiable in a darwinian sense.

For Jesus to rebel against God, is impossible. Because to Jesus, that would be rebelling against himself. Lucifer however rebelled against God in my FAIRY TALE. This means that on a fundamental level he believes he is separate from God. Believing that everything is separate is not a crime in itself, or evil. It's perfectly natural and God sees no fault in this consciousness.

Part 3: When the angels created a God
Before our earthly realm was created, the realm of angels was created. The angels would co-create their own reality as if it were a giant shared dream. Except they didn't realize they were dreaming.

So what happens if potentially MILLIONS of angels collectively believe that God is SEPARATE, and their thoughts CREATE? They literally created a false God that is separate from themselves. Technically speaking this God isn't real, not anymore real than a dream character. It is a walking talking illusion borrowing consciousness

This false dreamed up God has enough consciousness to know it will cease to exist if others stop dreaming of it. And while at first this false God might try to win your attention through Love or worship, it wouldn't take long for this consciousness hungry monster to realize the easiest way to get bits and pieces of your thoughts - IS THROUGH FEAR! And Satan, the God of Evil, and an entire host of illusionary dreamed up demons were born.

Where does Lucifer fit in? He possibly led a rebellion against this Satan. A battle which only fueled Satan more!!!

Can you imagine how terrifying this shared nightmare was, and how each moment it only grew more and more and more and more terrifying? As dreamers we all understand the domino effect of fear in dreams!

Were talking an entire realm the size of a Universe at war with itself!

Part 4: The Great Creator Intervines!
God the Creator, the real God the Creator, had no choice but to intervine. Now God in this fairy tale absolutely respects free wil. God only intervined when it became necessary to save them from their own illusions!

God cut off the Light from the angels who were rebelling against Satan. This light is the power to co-create. Everything that is created is created through this light, including ones own ego. The idea was, if they could no longer co-create - then this illusionary God, Satan would eventually starve and disappear.

However........your ego would also starve and cease to exist in the process!! Once their egos would cease to exist they would be freed as forms of pure consciousness. Lucifer not understanding the truth became afraid he would cease to exist. Lucifer became consciously aware that the false God - Satan - only exists because it steals life sustaining energy from innocent victims. Lucifer realized he could do the same.

Part 5: Lucifer Rebels against the Creator
And this is the real infamous rebellion of Lucifer and his horde of fallen angels. Not wanting to give up their egos, which has an experation date, they needed to steal life sustaining and creative light from innocent victims to keep their egos alive. Who could be their victims?

Enter humanity and all of the material realm.

It was through the slow and calculated manipulation of Lucifer that we began to believe that God is separate from us, that God was to be FEARED! And through the terrifying fear of God, we would give up energy unknowingly to Lucifer and his fallen angels. And as we believed we were separate from God, we too fell in the process. It was NEVER Lucifers goal to send us to hell. It was Lucifers goal to keep us from ascending . So we can remain reincarnating on the earth for the purpose of feeding him life sustaining energy.

Part 6: So is Lucifer Evil? The answer is still No.
In one passage of the bible Lucifer is depicted as bound in the lowest levels of hell, and weeping. That's right...weeping. He's not laughing or enjoying the show of demons tormenting. Bound and weeping! . . . why?

How could God create an evil being? This image answers the riddle. God didn't.

Lucifer, or the consciousness within Lucifer IS THE FIRST VICTIM of this story. He is victim number one. Satan realized his time was up. Satan realized that without the thoughts of the angels, he would cease to exist. Satan "came up" with a plan. Lie or die.

When the angels including Lucifer realized they were no longer receiving creative light - Satan lied and told them that "GOD HATES YOU!". That God would never forgive them for their travesty, and unless they join him - that is continue the art of manipulation - they too would cease to exist. Through absolute fear, stemming from dualism, they willingly aligned with Satan. Lucifer, being the former greatest angel among them all, became the 'Prince of Evil'. He has taken orders from a powerful, but also illusionary being.

God is not like the God in the bible. He she, it, whatever, absolutely ABSOLUTELY respects free will. Seeing that his creations have willingly aligned with Satan, God allowed this to play out. But the God in this story is still an all loving God. And decided that this little game would have an absolute deadline. At some point in the future, that was it. God himself will "dissolve" Satan, demons and every ego aligned with it. GAME OVER!

Why didn't God free them from beginning?

Part 7: God's Desire to Self Transcend
Because God has an unstoppable desire to self-transcend. This very desire created the Universe and set everything into motion, including our own evolution. As God desires to self-transcend, God desires for his/her self-extensions to overcome all of their illusions and self-trascend as well. Overcoming Satan then, is as simple as realizing when a nightmare is just a dream.

In the happy ending, all the victims in the story - the fallen agnels and humanity - would wake up and realize we are all fundamentally ONE - and death is an illusion - there is absolutely NOTHING to fear. And even the consciousness in Lucifer himself, will once again know the sweetness of heaven. Because God, the real God, holds no ill feelings towards Lucifer.

Part 8: Compassion and Forgiveness
Satan isn't actually real. You see, when he lied to the angels and told them "God hates you" that was just the manifestation of their own deep rooted fears. Should you ever meet Satan, recognize you are only meeting your own deep rooted fears. Have compassion and forgiveness for yourself.

Only compassion, forgiveness and love can free a fallen being. Warrior angels use love to dissolve what is not real. Illusionary demons fade like shadows to light in the presences of these angels. When this same love is given to a fallen being - their egos melt away. The fears melt. Their self hatred melts. And they finally accept love as they surrender their egos to God. And they once again reunite with their brothers and sisters in heaven knowing no one in heaven hates them or judges them.

If they are unable to do this now because of how much they hate themselves, then they need only rebel until the allotted time when God will free them from their egos.

Rumor has it that time is fast approaching!

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

As a heart-attack.
How does it not make sense? Is perfectly executed and makes tons of sense. I don't see a problem with this. Noogah is absolutely right, it's the same difference as the following that was mentioned.

How are evil and immorality opposites? Can someone please explain this. At the very least would you mind defining evil, then defining morality. Please don't define one then say the other is just the opposite, completely avoiding my argument.

Are you guys really serious, or are you really theologikos in disguise?

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

How does it not make sense? Is perfectly executed and makes tons of sense. I don't see a problem with this. Noogah is absolutely right, it's the same difference as the following that was mentioned.

read: if it is bad for me to be evil, then it must be good for me to be immoral.

juroara: too long D:

Originally Posted by juroara

REALLY

BIG

POST

Juroara, if it's possible, could you just trim your post into the primary points, so I can debate it without having to sift through all of it, and likely missing most of the important stuff? It will make it much more interesting, and efficient.

Originally Posted by stonedape

How are evil and immorality opposites?

WHOAAA!!!! How did I miss that!?!?? I'm sorry! I thought you said the difference between evil and MORALITY. I'll edit the post pronto!

In fact, I believe the two are synonomous.

So do you still hold that Satan is evil, yet he is not opposed to morality, wants world peace etc.?

What is your definition of evil?

Also, you claim that Satan wants world peace. Does God want world peace as well?

Originally Posted by Noogah

Come now. I think you're intelligent enough to know that cutting and pasting verse outside of their context ruins there true meaning. Read the books that these verse are in, or at least the chapter. You will find that they actually make much sense. Of course, I could summarize just about anything falsely by simply cutting and padting parts of them.

What the fuck do you mean 'taken outside of context'?

Originally Posted by stonedape

So do you still hold that Satan is evil, yet he is not opposed to morality, wants world peace etc.?

What is your definition of evil?

Also, you claim that Satan wants world peace. Does God want world peace as well?

If the God of the bible had world peace then there wouldn't be anyone else left to torture. He already tried this with the flood remember but still kept eight people alive for some reason.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

If the God of the bible had world peace then there wouldn't be anyone else left to torture. He already tried this with the flood remember but still kept eight people alive for some reason.

Silly, thats so they could get nasty with some incest. God likes incest - there's rather a lot of it in the bible. Its sort of like "God Porn" - he likes to watch.

Originally Posted by evildoctor

Silly, thats so they could get nasty with some incest. God likes incest - there's rather a lot of it in the bible. Its sort of like "God Porn" - he likes to watch.

I thought that was the smell of burning goat flesh. But then again, a deity is allowed to have his fetishes.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

What the fuck do you mean 'taken outside of context'?