Thread: The Rem Project

Yah man it is an awesome name

There is one problem here though: Am I a member of the Research Team?

I'm not sure it's possible to go from laying down to rest and go right into REM without going through the first 3 or 4 stages of sleep.

This might be something you can try in a WBTB - after you've already gone through a sleep cycle or two.

Also, this sounds a bit like self-hypnosis. But, worth giving it a try.

I like the idea of conditioning triggers for the REM cycle (trigger program method). It sounds promising. With enough repetition, the trigger should go off in the REM cycle, and then BINGO-BANGO... Lucidity

Yes there is lots of flexability for The Nameless Project.

A theory of mine is that during even the day we go through stages of brain waves (well that is probably already proven), and perhaps REMs happen during even the waking day. My own personal experience on the programming a trigger to go off during any Rapid Eye Movement cycle has been that during the day I have had the triggers go off. And so I became lucid during the day, it made me 'wide awake' in a sense. And that is when I have cultivated lucid awareness.

I have some lingering issues with REM periods as well as REM cylces and it's true nature.
Then I can add some input.

Your eyes don't just "go nuts" during REM periods. They actually follow where you happen to be looking in the dream. LaBerge and many other dream researchers have often used prearranged eye-signals in lab studies for subjects to signal to researchers that they had become lucid. It was widely accepted even before these experiments that your physical eye movements mimicked your dream eye movements, but these experiments pretty much serve as proof.

An example of dream signalling: http://www.lucidity.com/slbbs/index.html

So those bursts of eye twitching that you're experiencing actually have nothing to do with the REM stage of sleep.

Originally Posted by DuB

Your eyes don't just "go nuts" during REM periods. They actually follow where you happen to be looking in the dream. LaBerge and many other dream researchers have often used prearranged eye-signals in lab studies for subjects to signal to researchers that they had become lucid. It was widely accepted even before these experiments that your physical eye movements mimicked your dream eye movements, but these experiments pretty much serve as proof.

An example of dream signalling: http://www.lucidity.com/slbbs/index.html

So those bursts of eye twitching that you're experiencing actually have nothing to do with the REM stage of sleep.
[/b]

Then it should be a Dream Views Lucid Dream Monthly Task to hold your eyes still while dreaming.

And like I said this method is quite flexible and is not a concrete set in stone thing. While you are awake and doing the second method I presented you may now Rapidly Look Around at the Surrounding Objects, While cultivating awareness and programming triggers.

Your eyes don't just "go nuts" during REM periods. They actually follow where you happen to be looking in the dream. LaBerge and many other dream researchers have often used prearranged eye-signals in lab studies for subjects to signal to researchers that they had become lucid. It was widely accepted even before these experiments that your physical eye movements mimicked your dream eye movements, but these experiments pretty much serve as proof.

An example of dream signalling: http://www.lucidity.com/slbbs/index.html

So those bursts of eye twitching that you're experiencing actually have nothing to do with the REM stage of sleep.[/b]

Exactly. ^

There is no such thing as "mini REM". There are hypnogogic hallucinations. REM starts after few stages of deep sleep. Therefore you cannot feel REM onset as you are already sleeping. Sometimes it is possible to feel REM onset through WILD, but when you are WILDing you have more than enough clues to make you lucid (like transition phase).


I often reenter REM via dream reentry and I've never felt any eye movements.

I have some lingering issues with REM periods as well as REM cycles and it's true nature.
Then I can add some input.

ah haaa. And that be one of them. Thanks DuB!

Originally Posted by DuB

Your eyes don't just "go nuts" during REM periods. They actually follow where you happen to be looking in the dream. LaBerge and many other dream researchers have often used prearranged eye-signals in lab studies for subjects to signal to researchers that they had become lucid. It was widely accepted even before these experiments that your physical eye movements mimicked your dream eye movements, but these experiments pretty much serve as proof.

An example of dream signalling: http://www.lucidity.com/slbbs/index.html

So those bursts of eye twitching that you're experiencing actually have nothing to do with the REM stage of sleep.
[/b]

One of the other issues I had (And it may have been in there some where) is rapid eye movement and involuntary actions.
Which can be both at times. For example, we blink involuntarily, yet we can voluntarily blink. And breathing to a degree. Much different than let's say our heart.
So we have three variables. We can obviouslyy move our eyes back and forth simulating a REM experience but not really pertaining to a true REM.

Originally Posted by Howetzer

I have some lingering issues with REM periods as well as REM cycles and it's true nature.
Then I can add some input.

ah haaa. And that be one of them. Thanks DuB!


One of the other issues I had (And it may have been in there some where) is rapid eye movement and involuntary actions.
Which can be both at times. For example, we blink involuntarily, yet we can voluntarily blink. And breathing to a degree. Much different than let's say our heart.
So we have three variables. We can obviouslyy move our eyes back and forth simulating a REM experience but not really pertaining to a true REM.
[/b]

And program ourselves to trigger lucidity or perform a reallity check through Rapidly Moving our Eyes during the day as an excercise and praticing RCs or saying affirmations during the excercise.

Originally Posted by DreamDudeDave

And program ourselves to trigger lucidity or perform a reallity check through Rapidly Moving our Eyes during the day as an excercise and praticing RCs or saying affirmations during the excercise.
[/b]

You don't get it, do you? "Rapidly Moving your Eyes" does not simulate REM sleep.

Your eyes are moving just as "rapidly" in REM sleep as they do when you are awake and walking around. Pay attention to your eye movement some time. You don't often crane your whole head around to look at something, you normally just tilt your head a bit and swing your eyes over there. As you go about your daily life, your eyes are constantly moving rapidly.

REM sleep was given it's name before it was discovered that the "rapid eye movements" that it's named after were really just people looking around in their dreams. Your eye muscles are one of the only muscle groups not affected by sleep paralysis. The head tilting, etc, however, is restrained by the sleep paralysis, so the eye movement is the only part that is observable in the waking world. To the unknowing observer, this gives the appearance that the dreamer's eyes are "going through rapid eye movements" (a.k.a. going crazy).

SO, unless one of your dreamsigns is holding still and rolling your eyes around in your head like a nutcase, these "exercises" are meaningless. They will not be mentally associated with REM sleep, because they are nothing alike, in any way whatsoever. You may as well do your RCs and affirmations while rubbing your stomach and patting your head, because you'd get the same benefits. (nothing.)

No I get it.

4th Night of The Nameless Project Test: My dream awareness has increased further. I haven't realized I was dreaming yet, but my awareness level was very high.

Since I started these techniques my dreams have become increasingly vivid. I am optimistic that I will soon become Lucid in my Dreams.

Hey nameless are you there? Have you tested this/have any luck?

I'll for the furthering of the research and expirmentation of this technique list my results thus far:

1st Night: I slept for only 3 hours due to anxiety of flying home. I recalled a dream that I was aware in as if awake, but did not become Lucid

2nd Night: I was home from flying, it wasn't so bad. Though I had taken 2 and half valumes, so I was drugged and just fell right to sleep. I recalled a dream that I spoke with a Dream Person about Dreaming and these techniques, he said "Yah that's how you know when you're dreaming."

3rd Night: I nearly entered into a WILD while performing technique 1, hearing odd things and seeing hypnagogic images. I recalled my dreams were increased in awareness, still no Lucid Dream.

4th Night: Nearly WILD again. Hearing Music in the hypnagogic stage I came to realize that entering a WILD would be much wilder than I previously thought, I've never WILDed. Still no Lucid Dream. Very vivid dreams.

So far I conclude that there is something to these techniques of raising awarness, the triggering of the rapid eye movement theory has not yet proving fruitful though I will continue to try them.

For the sake of this Project I kindly ask anyone who is not experimenting with these techniques or having something productive to say reguarding the advancement of this Project to please step back and let those interested in expirimenting these techniques to please step forward.

Feel free to alter, change, or add to the techniques within the basic parameters of The Nameless Project.

I have not been actively experimenting. But on those nights that I do remember to watch for any REMs, I notice they come during the Hypnogogic Stage. And on those nights my dreams are vivid and easy to remember. They are the kind of being Awake within the Dream but not aware its a Dream. No Lucid Dream as of yet.

Can anyone here concur that Rapid Eye Movements occur during the Light Patterns prior to Hypnogogia or during Hypnogogia?

Originally Posted by DreamDudeDave

I have not been actively experimenting. But on those nights that I do remember to watch for any REMs, I notice they come during the Hypnogogic Stage. And on those nights my dreams are vivid and easy to remember. They are the kind of being Awake within the Dream but not aware its a Dream. No Lucid Dream as of yet.

Can anyone here concur that Rapid Eye Movements occur during the Light Patterns prior to Hypnogogia or during Hypnogogia?
[/b]

Just as if you were in a dream, during HI your eyes follow what you are watching or are looking at. Giving the same result as REM during a dream

Hey Howetzer,

Thanks for your reply. It appears that the 'method' here is little more then a WILD technique.

It's a good insight to understand that one can cultivate lucid awareness during the HI or any noticed REM.

I still hold to the hypothesis that there are REMs during the day. I've noticed many times during the day finding my eyes wondering across a room, object to object. During these moments is when I hypothesize that cultivating awareness will spill over into the REM cycles of sleep. Today I've again taken up the practice of cultivating awareness to the moment whenever I find my eyes rapidly moving from one object to the next. I've also noticed that there are periods when my eyes take a rest and my head does most of the moving to take a look around.

I had a new insight on the REM techniques here mentioned.

When we sleep the period when we dream is during REM cycles. When we are dreaming and not lucid, our eyes are Rapidly Moving on a kind of autopilot. And when we become Lucid we then have control over how they move.

So during my REM excercises, when they were moving around by their own will, I realized that if I took active participation in the moving of the eyes, that would be equivalent to becomeing LUCID in a REM during sleep.

I had this insight 2 nights ago.

And just this morning I had a WILD or a DILD, I'm not sure which because I may have been having false awakenings. My first lucid since coming back! It lasted about 5 minutes!

Originally Posted by DreamDudeDave

When we are dreaming and not lucid, our eyes are Rapidly Moving on a kind of autopilot. And when we become Lucid we then have control over how they move.[/b]

This is not true either. You're eyes always follow where you're looking in the dream, regardless of whether or not you're lucid.

Case in point:
Here's one of the figures from the link I posted earlier, which I guess you never looked at. (original link)

Figure 1. A typical signal-verified lucid dream. Four channels of physiological data (central EEG [C3-A2], left and right eye-movements [LOC and ROC], and chin muscle tone [EMG]) from the last 8 min of a 30 min REM period are shown. Upon awakening the subject reported having made five eye movement signals (labeled 1-5 in figure). The first signal (1, LRLR) marked the onset of lucidity. Skin potential potential artifacts can be observed in the EEG at this point. During the following 90 s the subject "flew about" exploring his dream world until he believed he had awakened, at which point he made the signal for awakening (2, LRLRLRLR). This signal, made in non-lucid REM shows that the precise correspondence between eye movements and gaze is not an artifact of lucidity. After another 90 s, the subject realized he was still dreaming and signaled (3) with three pairs of eye movements. Realizing that this was too many, he correctly signaled with two pairs (4). Finally, upon awakening 100 s later he signaled appropriately (5, LRLRLRLR). [Calibrations are 50 microV and 5 s.][/b]

I made it extra easy for you this time by emphasizing the most relevant lines. But here's a summary anyway. At one point during his lucid dream, the dreamer had a false awakening, but did not recognize it as a false awakening. He gave the eye signal meaning "I am awake now," believing he had really awakened. (Hint: he was no longer lucid.) Obviously this would not be possible if our eyes are "Rapidly Moving on a kind of autopilot" while we are non-lucid, as you assert.

So, as you can see from the above information (or as you should be able to see, but probably don't), you're eyes never move around in random patterns while you are dreaming. The eye twitching that you're mistaking for "REMs" is simply eye twitching, and nothing more. There is no correspondance between that and the Rapid Eye Movement phase of sleep.

This isn't exactly rocket science.

Either I am not communicating my thoughts correctly or you just are persistant in not understanding them.

I know that your eyes move where you look in a dream. I wasn't saying they don't.

But I am saying that when you are not lucid where you look in a dream is not under your (lucid) conscious control. When you become lucid then they are under your control.



Let me reiterate:

When we are dreaming our eyes move in parallel to how our eyes move in the dream world. Isn't that exactly what you said? And that is exactly what I've been saying.

When we become lucid in dreams we gain conscious control over where we look in the dream world. Moving from our eyes moving in "autopilot" fashion at the dream world object to a conscious looking around at dream objects. By autopilot I mean not under our conscious control.

So it's from an unconscious (not lucid) Rapid Eye Movement to a conscious Rapid Eye Movement (lucid).

My point is this:

I agree the eyes move where you look in the dream. But the movement isn't under conscious control until lucid.

Okay, so if you acknowledge that your real eye movements mimick your dream eye movements, then how on earth did you come up with the idea that those eye twitching movements that you're experiencing while awake are the same as REM sleep? This is my entire point. Let's look at them separately:

"Mini-REMs"
Your eyelids twitch, your eyes roll around in their sockets. You don't look at anything, your eyeballs just move around.

During REM sleep
Your eyes move around according to what you see around you, exactly as in waking life. The eye movements serve a purpose, which is to focus on perceived objects. The only difference between this and the way your eyes always function is that during REM, you are focusing on imaginary objects rather than "real" ones.

Okay, now that we have (hopefully) established that these two are completely separate from one another, here is the underlying point:

How would one benefit from giving oneself "lucid" affirmations during these so-called "mini-REMs?" As we have already established, those are nothing at all like what actually happens with our eyes as we dream. So that programmed conditioning would never be triggered in our dreams. As I said earlier, you may as well be conditioning yourself to become lucid whenever you rub your stomach and pat your head, because that action is just as obscure as the one that you're suggesting.

Do you see what I'm getting at now? You're treating this eye twitching phenomenon as a potential dream sign, when in fact it is not a dream sign, because this doesn't happen while dreaming. If it did, it would be a wonderful technique. But it doesn't.

With all due respect I understand where you are coming from.

And then there is that I had my first lucid dream this morning and this is the only lucid inducing technique I practice. Which I started on the 16th of August..

Since I started doing thing technique my dreams have becoming more vivid everyday and when I wake up each day I remember consistently more of my dreams. I don't keep a dream journal, I don't do reality checks, I don't try WILDs. This is it: When I'm falling asleep, I'll notice my eyes moving around, and I've cultivated awareness during the movements. I've noticed there are times when they move, and times when they don't. And then 2 nights ago I decided I'd take a little control off the movements when they happened. And this morning in my dream I noticed it was dream, and took control of it. It quickly dissolved into other dream scenes and then I woke up. I've found two ingrediants: 1) is the cultivation of awareness, this increases dream vividness/awareness. I then realized 2) is the conscious control of your dream self. But now writing this I'll add a 3) (which comes before 2) the realization that you are dreaming.



But to be honest I think you may be right: I'm treating this and using this as a dream sign.

But what about the other people who have confirmed that they too experience rapid eye movements before falling asleep?

Originally Posted by DreamDudeDave

And then there is that I had my first lucid dream this morning and this is the only lucid inducing technique I practice. Which I started on the 16th of August..[/b]

Congratulations, but since it is entirely possible to have lucid dreams without practicing any techniques whatsoever, this doesn't exactly say much for the efficacy of this technique. Here's a quote from the article on the Dream Views main page, "Is It Learnable? / Learning Lucid Dreaming":
"I should note that lucid dreams are not necessarily only attained by vigorous practice and diligence—it is quite possible you have already experienced lucid dreaming, although you may not already know it. In fact, after reading this site on lucid dreaming you may very well have a lucid dream tonight—simply reading about and constantly thinking about lucid dreaming is often enough to induce a lucid dream. Attaining the ability to lucid dream at will, however, requires effort on your part."
So basically you're indirectly improving your chances of becoming lucid simply by thinking about lucid dreaming a lot and dedicating time to it.

Originally Posted by DreamDudeDave

Since I started doing thing technique my dreams have becoming more vivid everyday and when I wake up each day I remember consistently more of my dreams. I don't keep a dream journal[/b]

Again, congratulations. But this doesn't say much for the efficacy of the technique, either. (Nevermind the fact that this is not even the intended effect of the technique.) Your increase in vividness and recall is most likely a result of practice and intention: merely making the attempt to recall all the details of your dreams exercises your ability to do so, and the better you get at recalling the finer details, the more "vivid" it makes the dreams seem. You don't even need a dream journal to do this, although it does help (I don't keep a dream journal either- well, that is to say, I only record my lucid dreams).

Originally Posted by DreamDudeDave

But what about the other people who have confirmed that they too experience rapid eye movements before falling asleep?[/b]

I'm not saying that they aren't experiencing the same thing as you. In fact, even I have experienced what you're describing before, during one or two of my (failed) WILD attempts. I'm merely saying that this phenomenon is not related to REM sleep, and should not be treated as such.

Actually, what I meant by cultivating awareness to spill over into your dreams was/is exactly that that practice would in fact increase dream vividness.

And.....you really, imho, can't say that this phenomenon isn't connected with REM cycles with absolute certainty. Or can you?