Thread: Tibetan Dream Yoga Experiment

Not that I'm an expert on the subject, but it seems like they lied about what Tibetan Buddhists do.

they have developed elaborate techniques for inducing lucidity

They never induce lucid dreams, in fact they strive to stop having dreams at all. LDs are a side-effect of other practices, and they explain them to work differently than the lucidity institute would...
And so if LDs are a side-effect of these practices, it's meaningless to sleep in any position, because you aren't doing the practices that later produce LDs.

bear a striking resemblance to the techniques now employed by Western oneironauts, for example, frequent reflection throughout the day on the dreamlike nature of reality

This isn't about LD-induction at all, it's about different things and it's a part of other practices... Also not dreamlike reality, but dreamlike nature of human thoughts and feelings. This striking resemblance they're talking about doesn't exist.

Scientists...

Originally Posted by Intended

Not that I'm an expert on the subject, but it seems like they lied about what Tibetan Buddhists do.

They never induce lucid dreams, in fact they strive to stop having dreams at all. LDs are a side-effect of other practices, and they explain them to work differently than the lucidity institute would...
And so if LDs are a side-effect of these practices, it's meaningless to sleep in any position, because you aren't doing the practices that later produce LDs.

This isn't about LD-induction at all, it's about different things and it's a part of other practices... Also not dreamlike reality, but dreamlike nature of human thoughts and feelings. This striking resemblance they're talking about doesn't exist.

Scientists...

Clear light = no dreaming.

Hmm... I feel like I need to defend this and clarify the study's intent. Maybe I picked the wrong title for the thread. The experiment isn't really about "Tibetan Dream Yoga," that's just the "oh-isn't-that-interesting" motivation for their experiment on sleep position/the nasal cycle and its effects on dreaming.

Originally Posted by Intended

... it's meaningless to sleep in any position, because you aren't doing the practices that later produce LDs.

Unless sleeping position is a practice that later produces LDs, which is what's being investigated here.

They're hypothesizing that there may be a difference and that it may be due to the nasal cycle, which has already been established as having effects on the brain. The experiment isn't based on the teachings of Tibetan Buddhists, and it's not specifically an attempt to validate any of their methods. It's a study trying to scientifically establish something that's already been mentioned in dreaming lore. Wouldn't it be nice to know if sleeping position DID help you LD? They mention the lore as motivation and background, but nothing more.

There's been research done into this before (see for example Atanasov A.T., Dimov P.D. and Dimitrov B.D. "Time Periods in the Nasal Cycle During Night Sleep.", Biological Rhythm Research, 34(4):255-266(12), 2004 relating sleep and the nasal cycle, and Khalsa, Shannahoff. "The ultradian rhythm of alternating cerebral hemispheric activity.", Int J Neurosci.70(3-4):285-98., 1993, relating the nasal cycle with brain activity) but not specifically relating to sleeping position vs. dreaming.

Basically they're saying, if sleeping position affects the nasal cycle (which it does), and the nasal cycle affects the brain (which it does), and the brain affects dreaming (duh), then sleeping position may affect dreaming. All of the stuff about Tibetan Dream Yoga is background and has nothing to do with their method, collection, or analysis of their results.

And I'm not an expert on it either, (actually I know nothing about it) but a quick google search does turn up a lot about Tibetan Dream Yoga, the "mastery of lucid dreaming in the service of enlightenment," and being able to shape and control your dreams allowing for deeper understanding of the ephemeral nature of dreams and reality. So I don't think it's something that the guys at the Lucidity Institute lied about (at least not intentionally).

I suppose it's my fault for using the study's subtitle about "Tibetan Dream Yoga" as the title of my thread instead of the study's actual title "The Best Sleep Posture for Lucid Dreaming." "Tibetan Dream Yoga" just sounded cooler If you read the pdf file from my original post, I think it's pretty clear what the experiment's all about.

Hmm... that's interesting, because I always wake up on my right side. If I don't, then I automatically roll over to that side. I think I will do some expiraments with sleeping positions as well.

Originally Posted by Bear

It's a study trying to scientifically establish something that's already been mentioned in dreaming lore.

It's not exactly dreaming lore, it's about real life, dreams are just one of the bunch of methods used in it in order to help the changes...

All of the stuff about Tibetan Dream Yoga is background and has nothing to do with their method, collection, or analysis of their results.

I'm sorry, but on the page it's called The Best Sleep Posture for Lucid Dreaming: A Revised Experiment Testing a Method of Tibetan Dream Yoga
And later :
For over 1,000 years, the Tibetan Buddhists have been practicing lucid dreaming as a means of approaching enlightenment. In this pursuit, they have developed elaborate techniques for inducing lucidity
That's what I was mostly critisizing!

And I'm not an expert on it either, (actually I know nothing about it) but a quick google search does turn up a lot about Tibetan Dream Yoga, the "mastery of lucid dreaming in the service of enlightenment,"

No doubt written by those who don't exactly know what it is about Or probably wanted to emphasize lucid dreaming so much to attract people, but it's the same as lying...

You know, there are many books written by Tibetan lamas that do mention the practice of Dream Yoga and how it is in fact lucid dreaming. Take "Awakening the Buddha Within" by Lama Surya Das for example.

I was just about to post this. I've already started on the experiment. We still have until June before it's finished.