Incest Norm

[O'nus]

Within case studies, polls, statistics, and more, it is apparent that there is an incest norm within human psychology. It is normal for a father to have an attraction to their daughter. By this, I mean, that 65% of fathers will have, at some time, an attraction to their own daughter. This norm enhances with step-daughters. Knowing this, it is no wonder that many men lose themselves and become very unhappy and depressed thinking that there is something wrong with them. There are many men who find this attraction and then project it onto the mother causing a father and daughter vs. mother battle. While the oedipus and elektra complex are known (sons and daughters having sexual fantasies about their parents), what do you think of this norm? Does it make you feel a little more sensitive to some men who think that there is something wrong with them for having an attraction to those that they "shouldn't"? Or do you out right disagree and refuse to believe such a thing..? ~

[Taosaur]

It's pretty obvious to me that there are some sexual feelings within all families among more or less all of the members, which strongly influence how children will express their sexuality outside the family. In the worst cases the family can break down into rivalries and/or individual members can become, as you say, "lost," but the healthy approach is to accept it as a species of love and confirmation of the incest taboo, and move on. Between fathers and daughters, a pseudo-sexual relationship seems very much the norm, and the template for most daughters' future lives.

[Invader]

How is that information gathered? I'm curious, as I'd expect most men/women in a study to lie about any sexual feelings they may have for a family member. Without any further information, I can only wonder if the percentage in reality is much greater than 65% or not. I think the phenomenon is a little odd, considering the genetic disadvantages of mating with your own kind. At the same time, though, the parents can see in their children a little bit of themselves and their partner, and if they were attracted to their partner to begin with it may go without saying that they'll feel some (or more) of that feeling towards the offspring. Guilt that comes with sexual desire.. I'm reminded of the way many people who exhibited homosexual desires must have felt, and so my sympathies are similar. That is to say: If the feelings are indeed uncontrollable, I can only be sorry that they feel bad about themselves for having them.

[DuB]

It is normal for a father to have an attraction to their daughter. By this, I mean, that 65% of fathers will have, at some time, an attraction to their own daughter. That's news to me. Documentation, please? While the oedipus and elektra complex are known (sons and daughters having sexual fantasies about their parents) Well, these complexes are "known" to the extent that they are known to be absurd. Those ideas are obsolete, and certainly today such behavioral tendencies are seen as aberrations rather than norms.

[O'nus]

That's news to me. Documentation, please? I cannot provide online documentation as they are, not only confidential, but from paid journals. If you don't want to take my word for it.. then just take it as a theoretical idea of "what if". Well, these complexes are "known" to the extent that they are known to be absurd. Those ideas are obsolete, and certainly today such behavioral tendencies are seen as aberrations rather than norms. Not exactly. They are still a common thought pattern within developing psychology and development psychology. You can find research within Lee A. Kirkpatrick and further attachment psychology studies on the psychology of sexual development, etc. As for the father-daughter attraction, I am humbly admitting that I cannot (or at least do not know) of a way to show the evidence to you on here. Even if I could, I know I could not make specific name references for the case and longitudinal cases. ~

[DuB]

I cannot provide online documentation as they are, not only confidential, but from paid journals. I have access to most academic journals through my university. Don't be shy . Not exactly. They are still a common thought pattern within developing psychology and development psychology. As I noted, if these complexes are discussed outside of psychoanalytic theory, it is explicitly as a behavioral aberration. I am not aware that any psychologist outside of that outdated paradigm gives credence to the idea of an Oedipal complex as a normative stage of human development. You can find research within Lee A. Kirkpatrick and further attachment psychology studies on the psychology of sexual development, etc. I am looking at Mr. Kirkpatrick's complete list of publications from his Curriculum Vitae. It is not obvious to me which of these articles is supposed to pertain to Oedipal/Electra complexes, maybe you could help me out?

[O'nus]

I have access to most academic journals through my university. Don't be shy . I am referring to clerical case studies. I cannot produce an online version of longitudinal studies. As I noted, if these complexes are discussed outside of psychoanalytic theory, it is explicitly as a behavioral aberration. I am not aware that any psychologist outside of that outdated paradigm gives credence to the idea of an Oedipal complex as a normative stage of human development. I am looking at Mr. Kirkpatrick's complete list of publications from his Curriculum Vitae. It is not obvious to me which of these articles is supposed to pertain to Oedipal/Electra complexes, maybe you could help me out? These complex's are still utilized by psychoanalytic's of today. You will not see anyone "diagnosed" with it. It is simply a commonality that has been integrated into neo-Freudian psychology. Don't think I mean Freudian. It is simply the case that in human sexual development, they will look to the opposing sex parent for modelling and attraction. You can see some elaboration in most textbooks, or, "Attachment, Evolution, and Psychology of Religion" by Lee A. Kirkpatrick where he describes the two complex's and then relates it to religious development. ~

[DuB]

These complex's are still utilized by psychoanalytic's of today. You will not see anyone "diagnosed" with it. It is simply a commonality that has been integrated into neo-Freudian psychology. Don't think I mean Freudian. It is simply the case that in human sexual development, they will look to the opposing sex parent for modelling and attraction. That's a far cry from what you wrote in the OP: While the oedipus and elektra complex are known (sons and daughters having sexual fantasies about their parents) On a side note, "Neo-Freudians" are an insular bunch (although "bunch" would be generous -- they are essentially an endangered species) far removed from the mainstream of psychology, which demands evidence to back up theoretical claims.

[O'nus]

That's a far cry from what you wrote in the OP:On a side note, "Neo-Freudians" are an insular bunch (although "bunch" would be generous -- they are essentially an endangered species) far removed from the mainstream of psychology, which demands evidence to back up theoretical claims. I said they were known, I did not say anything further. They are utilized by psychoanalytic's, they are integrated as a means to understanding sexual development. What exactly are you trying to argue with me here on..? Simply look at any psychology 101 textbook to see how they are still utilized. Furthermore, psychoanalytic's are esoteric to begin with. There is only 1 University of all Canada that I know of that teaches it - I cannot speak for America - so saying that Neo-Freudians is insular is only demonstrating a slight ignorance to the popularity of psychoanalysis to begin with. I have already humbly admitted I cannot provide online evidence for what I have said - what are you hoping to get out of me? ~

[DuB]

Don't take it personally. As many lucid dreamers tend to scoff at the kind of topics found in Beyond Dreaming for giving lucid dreaming a bad reputation, so psychologists tend to scoff at psychoanalysis for making the entire field of psychology look bad. As a psychologist in training, the fact that people still buy into this junk reflects poorly on me; so in short, between me and psychoanalysis, it's personal . All that said, what I am hoping to "get out of you" is recognition that the fact that concepts such as Oedipal conflicts are still discussed among psychoanalytics is no more testament to their validity than the fact that conspiracy theorists still believe that we never landed on the moon. These topics are given a purely historical treatment in mainstream textbooks and should be regarded as little more than historical curiosity; certainly not as viable theory. I'm not sure what to make of your remark about the "popularity" of psychoanalysis. If anything, the fact that there is only one Canadian university that gives it serious treatment is case in point regarding the insularity of that paradigm.

[grasshoppa]

Incest: The game the whole family can play.

[hellohihello]

Isn't incest the actual act of having sex with a blood relative ? -- Anyways, what was stated above does seem to be sort of normal EXCEPT the having sexual fantasies. That's just odd.

[Jeff777]

Isn't incest the actual act of having sex with a blood relative ? -- Anyways, what was stated above does seem to be sort of normal EXCEPT the having sexual fantasies. That's just odd. Not as uncommon as some would think. Incest was a common practice among royalty to preserve the bloodline.

[Michael]

I don't know if I believe the percentages you presented... It's probably a much smaller number. I also heard that many boys are attracted to their mother and girls to their father... I think it was that retard sigmond freud that thought up all this nonsense.

[O'nus]

I don't know if I believe the percentages you presented... It's probably a much smaller number. Unfortunately, I cannot offer online evidence of it.. I have tried looking but I fail to find it - so I humbly admit not being able to prove it besides my own account from case and longitudinal studies. I also heard that many boys are attracted to their mother and girls to their father... I think it was that retard sigmond freud that thought up all this nonsense. It is not retarded, it is a perfectly normal form of sexual development. Think about it; the child must learn what is attractive and what traits to look for in their future mates so they initially look to the most prominent ones in their life - the parents. It does not necessitate that they want to mate with them, it's simply considered a form of psychological model. This is something that is accepted through most schools of psychology today. Although Freuds set-up was initially bias and construed, it has evolved to a better form of understanding sexual development. However.. you would not likely hear a psychologist actually use these terms to you in person. As DuB has pointed out - it is not something that would be diagnosed and I want to make the further note that it is not exaggerated - it is just a form of learning. What I was speaking of originally was the astronomical amounts of fathers that have attraction to their daughters. *Frown* ~

[grasshoppa]

Makes sense that a father would have an attraction to his daughter. He had an attraction to his wife/spouse and the daughter probably resembles her.

[Invader]

Unfortunately, I cannot offer online evidence of it.. I have tried looking but I fail to find it - so I humbly admit not being able to prove it besides my own account from case and longitudinal studies. Can you at least detail how this kind of data would be collected? Does your paid journal discuss that in any length?

[O'nus]

Can you at least detail how this kind of data would be collected? Does your paid journal discuss that in any length? Case and longitudinal studies. Are you looking for something more specific..? ~

[Invader]

Specifically for this case: By what criteria do the researchers judge that a physical attraction exists between a father and his daughter? How does this study define and recognize incestuous desire?

[DeathCell]

I have already humbly admitted I cannot provide online evidence for what I have said - what are you hoping to get out of me? ~ Hmm sounds familiar.

[AirRick101]

Makes sense that a father would have an attraction to his daughter. He had an attraction to his wife/spouse and the daughter probably resembles her. haha, you actually made me think with this....profound, actually....it puts things in a very believable perspective!

[Jookia]

Humans are, whether you like it or not, animals. Our instincts show basic sexual attraction. Instincts do not have a sense of boundary. Families do not apply. Families are not real. They're ideas. Instinct vs imaginary wall = ?

[Maeni]

Humans are, whether you like it or not, animals. Our instincts show basic sexual attraction. Instincts do not have a sense of boundary. Families do not apply. Families are not real. They're ideas. Instinct vs imaginary wall = ? Agreed. If a girl is attractive, a girl is attractive. That doesn't change if you're the father o_ O

[DuB]

We'll see if you still feel that way when you have a daughter.

[Jeff777]

We'll see if you still feel that way when you have a daughter. Heaven forbid that boy be allowed to breed.