Thread: Tell me about martial arts.

Originally Posted by Delphinus

Krav Maga is messed up... Its not really a style, since anything is allowed. (Even tickling and eye-gouging.)

Huh? Krav Maga is probably the single most effective and tried and tested martial arts style there is It was created and is used by the Israeli anti-terrorist and special forces.

If you mean because it's not useful for sports then you're right. If they didn't wear protective gear when they sparred or fought like the UFC they'd seriously injure each other or worse.

Just to be clear tradition tae kwon do is very useful, teaches proper blocking. This is sparring practice with traditional tae kwon do. During tournaments we wear helmets so in this one we pulled punches more than normal up high, but I kicked him fairly hard in the stomach multiple times

In case your wondering my hand is behind my back because Iinjured it, not because I'm cocky


This is olympic style tae kwon do. They fight mostly with their hands down and often use what are called flurry kicks. They are lots of kicks really fast, but they have no power behind them. This is what most tae kwon do schools teach.

Well I try always to think that its the human who fights not the style.
But I have never lost to pure taekwondoka. They have techniques only for kicking distance and have usually no knowledge whatsoever for punches, grappling, clinches ground fighting, takedowns, close combat or low kicks. It's usually one or two kick from them and then it's pretty much over.

Krav Maga, while being extremely brutal is effective and uses natural movements to advantage. They have my respect in self-defence sense.

But believe me when I say, there are no longer styles, no shouts "your kung fu is weak" or whatever. Martial art world has changed for good, the best train multiple styles and mix techniques that work. There is no reason to keep techniques or approaches that don't work.

My own style is combination of many arts and aims to arm traineers for every situation, fighting style or self-defence situation.

I love Krav Maga, I didn't mean to give the impression that I didn't like it, I just find it odd that there are very little restrictions on what to do. Its an amazing way to fight, and I know it's origins. I would say to learn it (many places offer lessons for it, surprisingly.)
And if you need to use it, I'd be surprised if your rival was left standing...

I admire Tae Kwon Do for its strength, but I have a prejudice against it. As I have found, most of the teachers for it are very cocky and selfrighteous... Now I realize those would be the olympic style ones... The main reason I hate it is because of who teaches it around here, and the way the people act while being taught... Around here, the main teacher is a very white guy, who makes the students call him Sensai Bob... He is a fifth degree black belt, but never teaches his student anything... My friend learned from him, and is now a third degree black belt (well enough to completely kick my ass.) I fought him, and told him to not hold back... I won still...

This is another reason why martial arts are so troubling. I've done them about 14 years and I teach my own classes too. But I hate this pride some people think they deserve. Most of "senseis" have never been in real fights, most of them are just hoaxes.

Respect is earned. Luckily I learned to see good teachers from bad at the very beginning.

I think i have these unthinkable dreams of walking around with two eskrima sticks on my back and kicking anyone's butt who looks at me wrong lol

Yeah i am in the States and there are a few schools around me, just shopping around to see which one i may want to try

Originally Posted by Delphinus

I admire Tae Kwon Do for its strength, but I have a prejudice against it. As I have found, most of the teachers for it are very cocky and self righteous... Now I realize those would be the olympic style ones... The main reason I hate it is because of who teaches it around here, and the way the people act while being taught... Around here, the main teacher is a very white guy, who makes the students call him Sensai Bob... He is a fifth degree black belt, but never teaches his student anything... My friend learned from him, and is now a third degree black belt (well enough to completely kick my ass.) I fought him, and told him to not hold back... I won still...

yeah, this is a major problem with TKD being one of the most popular martial arts taught. It is because it is not taught in its entirety and many times large chunks are cut out to make it more accessible for recreational purposes. That is what gives us who really practice it (I say us because Ninja seems to be on the same page as me) a bad name. It is true there are many unorthodox kicks that seem like they would never work in a non sparring situation, but trust me when taught properly some of them work very well.

Atleast I know the difference now... I only thought there was one type... I'll try to be a little more open minded to the TKD thing...

Originally Posted by tkdyo

yeah, this is a major problem with TKD being one of the most popular martial arts taught. It is because it is not taught in its entirety and many times large chunks are cut out to make it more accessible for recreational purposes. That is what gives us who really practice it (I say us because Ninja seems to be on the same page as me) a bad name. It is true there are many unorthodox kicks that seem like they would never work in a non sparring situation, but trust me when taught properly some of them work very well.

Continuing on that, some of those kicks really are useless. In that video I did a jumping tornado kick, something I would never do in a real self defense situation, but a valuable tool for teaching balance and coordination. Just because your instructor shows you something that doesn't really work doesn't mean he does have a reason for teaching it. That's the major problem with those people who only take what they think works and don't practice the other stuff. I hate it when people scoff at forms, I'm a skilled fighter because I have good balance, and good balance comes from forms.

Lots of jump kicks come from Tang Soo Do, and were designed to knock people off of a horse.

indeed, there is much more to training than simply punching a bag and sparring, you have to do a lot of different exercises to work out every muscle group, balance, reaction, coordination. Thats why I actually get a rush from training.

If thinking kicks in general in self-defence situation.. I have never, ever used kicks higher than waist level, you will find out that there are very few kicks you can/should/is safe to use. Low-kicks, maybe front kick and sidekicks.. knee is the usual tool in self-defence situation.

More over, I don't like sport taekwondos way to teach kicks. Because you have to be ultra fast in competition in order to get points, students rarely pivot their grounded leg, which will lead to broken knees eventually. Most of them also kick ( as in video) kicks that can never surprise a skilled fighter. They are too transparent, too obvious. Legs are always slower than hands, easy to grab on, go to takedowns. Especially so loved roundhouse kick.

Other thing that really stood out is their defence. No people in thei right mind would use traditional one handed block for kick. You will have a nice broken arm when kicker nows how to generate force.

But hey, heads up! TKD is still a lot higher than Taido in my book ( which is still the stupidest thing I've ever seen. Feel free to debate on that)

I agree with you on high kicks, those I would only try in sport like MMA where if you get taken down, you still know you wont die, but I disagree about kicks being too trasparent if they are from the front. I know I know, people say front leg kicks dont carry enough power, but trust me, when you train those hip flexors enough your kicks get lightning fast from the front, and they are strong enough to snap a few ribs if you were to go to the midsection.

In short, it all depends on how you train and how you set up your opponent before hand.

I looked up Krav Maga and it looks cool but probably not for a beginner like me, who has just started to take an interest

You would be surprised. Krav Maga was designed so everyone, soldier or civilian, young or old, male or female, athletic, or non-athletic could use it. Whilst there are advanced techniques taught at higher levels the entire martial art is based around simple moves that have the maximum effect. Anyone can pick up some basics very quickly.

Additionally, it incorporates various moves from many different martial arts. Strikes from Muay Thai for instance, grappling from Judo, etc.

I've read several books on the art and it's certainly something I'm going to take up.

Krav Maga is messed up... Its not really a style, since anything is allowed. (Even tickling and eye-gouging.)

Krav Maga is not a sport. It's not designed to be honourable. It's designed for one thing only: to allow you to survive in almost any combat situation. It is designed around you being the one left standing in a dangerous situation, and you doing whatever it takes. Whether that means gouging someone's eye out, tickling an opponent, exploiting any of the body's reflexes and mechanisms, or using any object as a weapon.

However as part of all courses, students are taught when to fight and how to avoid confrontation. They are also taught how to moderate the levels of violence so they are appropriate for the situation.

And personally, if I'm attacked by a thug with a knife in a dark alley at night, I'd much rather have him blinded and me not stabbed than be lying dead on the floor because the self defense I was taught didn't work in a cramped space (for example).

Originally Posted by tkdyo

I agree with you on high kicks, those I would only try in sport like MMA where if you get taken down, you still know you wont die, but I disagree about kicks being too trasparent if they are from the front. I know I know, people say front leg kicks dont carry enough power, but trust me, when you train those hip flexors enough your kicks get lightning fast from the front, and they are strong enough to snap a few ribs if you were to go to the midsection.

In short, it all depends on how you train and how you set up your opponent before hand.

Front kick is useful because of its snapping speed in real fight. I've always had long and strong kicks. While I do have reach in sparring, I dislike flashy kicks in general. But low kicks, for example short roundhouse kick to the thigh ( or knee if ment to totally destroy) is one of the most deadliest and hardest to see in close combat. But if you have reasonable defence posture, your front kick tends to hit elbows and hands. If hitting ribcage it will surely destroy smallest rib bones. The deal is, you rarely get chance unless you use kick after you have unbalanced the opponent with punch or something else.

Against a skilled martial artist you will almost never get a good kick in without them at least partially blocking it or setting it up really well. But against someone who doesn't know what they're doing (like in most self defense situations) a nice hard side kick to the stomach is easy to pull off.

I usually block roundhouse kicks with a double arm block, a properly executed one, even against the strongest kicker will not break your arms. Proper double arm blocks (all blocks) are meant to deflect the kick's power, not absorb them. Side kicks and front kicks can be easily blocked with one hand.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Against a skilled martial artist you will almost never get a good kick in without them at least partially blocking it or setting it up really well. But against someone who doesn't know what they're doing (like in most self defense situations) a nice hard side kick to the stomach is easy to pull off.

I usually block roundhouse kicks with a double arm block, a properly executed one, even against the strongest kicker will not break your arms. Proper double arm blocks (all blocks) are meant to deflect the kick's power, not absorb them. Side kicks and front kicks can be easily blocked with one hand.

Nice to see you have clearly trained I usually take roundhouse kicks with my shoulder, hands tightly in the body, or evade it by movement. Simple movement against the kicker usually negates all the power, since you can get yourself below the knee.

In self-defence kicks are indeed easier to set up. But usual situation, slippery ground, different footwear, restricting clothes make kicks quite hazardous. Also in normal self-defence situation it's couple punches maybe one kick and down to the ground. Of course, while I am quite proficient in ground combat, I've always trained more the methods of quickly disposing one opponent or getting to dominating position so I can get up or actually see what Joe Doey's friends are going to do with that baseball bat ^^


In friendly match where both are aware it is almost impossible to get surprising attack from long distance ( which i.e sport karate and tkd sparring usually use).

i live in such a small town there's no real training. I've been learning a hung gar form from a DVD. I'm probably doing a lot wrong tho. but I do spar regularly with friends and a cousin. My blocking reflexes have improved. but i don't strike very hard when sparring.

I used to take jiu jitsu. and for self defencse jiu jitsu is great. It's gotten me out of a few sticky situations before.

Study something other than ninjitsu if you want to be "hip".

Study ninjitsu if you want to be effective.

I have to agree with Unelias that kicks aren't extremely helpful all the time.. If you are in the right situation to do one, they're devistating, but try doing a kick to the ribs while wearing jeans.... Its just not going to happen.

Damn, drewmandan.. You're even more close minded than me...

Ninjutsu is well rounded, putting focus on balance, speed, and strength, but it is the person, not the art, that tells effectiveness...

Originally Posted by Unelias

Nice to see you have clearly trained :

Originally Posted by Unelias

Been doing martial arts for 14 years now..

I've actually got a couple years on you.

In self-defence kicks are indeed easier to set up. But usual situation, slippery ground, different footwear, restricting clothes make kicks quite hazardous. Also in normal self-defence situation it's couple punches maybe one kick and down to the ground. Of course, while I am quite proficient in ground combat, I've always trained more the methods of quickly disposing one opponent or getting to dominating position so I can get up or actually see what Joe Doey's friends are going to do with that baseball bat ^^

I'd be less worried about the guy with the bat than the guy you're currently fighting. If you get mugged it's probably going to just be one guy, not more than that. Grappling is good to get back up, but you still don't want to go to the ground if you're not sure if he's got a knife or not. You should always assume that he does. The average person shouldn't be a challenge for anyone with 10+ years to knock down. A swift kick to the knee and a palm to the jaw should give you plenty of time to run away.

Two guys aren't that hard to fight assuming that they don't both have bats or something, three or more, just give them your wallet and cut your loses.

Originally Posted by Delphinus

but it is the person, not the art, that tells effectiveness...

All else being equal, meaning same person, ninjitsu is much more effective than most martial arts if the goal is incapacitation or death.

Originally Posted by drewmandan

All else being equal, meaning same person, ninjitsu is much more effective than most martial arts if the goal is incapacitation or death.

Could you please define what makes ninjutsu effective? Your answer is crucial for me to know how to think about you. Do you train it yourself?

I have trained ninjutsu ( btw it is spelled ninJUTSU, not ninjitsu,). While it is true ninjutsu has very "deadly" arsenal of techniques in taijutsu, the unarmed form, it is not considered as hand to hand skill. Ninjutsu is more like tradition or set of different skills. I am always very suspicious against all who banter about ninjutsu.

Even though I have experience on that skill too, I don't rank it to be any more effective than modern day trained defendo or krav maga. Ninjutsu, being very traditional art loses much of it's true potential because they stick to old traditions, which of course is very understandable

Originally Posted by ninja9578

I've actually got a couple years on you.

I was by no means being cocky or trying to boast myself but years are years, they are only potential time to get better. I have seen guys who have trained lot more than me, yet they know lot less. Training methods, training vigor, skill, everything matters. I just ment that you seem to have very reasonable and realistic sense in martial arts, which earns automatically some respect from me

Originally Posted by ninja9578

I'd be less worried about the guy with the bat than the guy you're currently fighting. If you get mugged it's probably going to just be one guy, not more than that. Grappling is good to get back up, but you still don't want to go to the ground if you're not sure if he's got a knife or not. You should always assume that he does. The average person shouldn't be a challenge for anyone with 10+ years to knock down. A swift kick to the knee and a palm to the jaw should give you plenty of time to run away.

Two guys aren't that hard to fight assuming that they don't both have bats or something, three or more, just give them your wallet and cut your loses.

Of course you will never want to go ground. I have met lots of "cocky" i.e BJJ trainees who boast with their superiority in the ground. Yes, they are indeed usually the best down there, that I admit. But in self defence you never wanna go ground. You usually do and then you need the keys to get out. and usually the guy who wants to bash your brains out is a lot bigger and heavier. And they rarely are alone.. I speak very much from my experience as bouncer ( I wonder if that is the correct word in english) and the general streetfights I have in this damn town. Not very pleasant neighbourhood :/

In case of mugging or robbery I totally agree, better money than life. Weapons are another tricky thing.. Usually when you see knife defence training, it isn't very realistic. There is a great difference if someone wants to stab you and if he draws a knife in a middle of fight. If he wants to stab you there isn't very much you can do. I also agree with the attitude you have with weapons. There is always a chance attacker has a weapon and if he has one, there is a great chance he has another one.

Well again that's was some rant from me.. Just woke up from a little nap so please forgive any writing errors or things I forgot to write ^^

Originally Posted by drewmandan

All else being equal, meaning same person, ninjitsu is much more effective than most martial arts if the goal is incapacitation or death.

Death shouldn't be the goal. Self defense laws won't protect you if you kill someone. It's called reasonable force. The only time killing someone is allowed is if you are in fear for your own life. To a martial artist this means maybe a 3 on 1 fight or a fight against someone armed with something more than a knife.

I don't think any style is superior to any other, only different specialities. For killing there is no better style than Krav Maga and it's very heavily tested in real world situations.

Originally Posted by Unelias

I was by no means being cocky or trying to boast myself but years are years, they are only potential time to get better. I have seen guys who have trained lot more than me, yet they know lot less. Training methods, training vigor, skill, everything matters. I just ment that you seem to have very reasonable and realistic sense in martial arts, which earns automatically some respect from me

I've met those guys too.

Of course you will never want to go ground. I have met lots of "cocky" i.e BJJ trainees who boast with their superiority in the ground. Yes, they are indeed usually the best down there, that I admit

That's why I teach my students the mainly how to use grappling to gain dominate position and get back up, not finish someone via submission. I teach submission grappling too, but only because it's fun. I'd surely lose a match to a ju jitsu specialist.

In case of mugging or robbery I totally agree, better money than life. Weapons are another tricky thing.. Usually when you see knife defence training, it isn't very realistic. There is a great difference if someone wants to stab you and if he draws a knife in a middle of fight. If he wants to stab you there isn't very much you can do.

You seem very knowledgable of what to do when confronted with a knife. But for everyone else: running is usually the best defense. If he's faster than you, then this goes back to what I said about reasonable force. If you seriously injure him while he's holding the knife, that's perfectly fine. Fancy disarms don't work, distracting him by breaking his knee or gouging his eyes take his attention away from the knife, then it can be taken away from him. Once you have disarmed him, the balance of power has dramatically shifted and reasonable force dictates that you don't harm him anymore. "Teaching him a lesson" makes you the aggressor and if caught, you'd go to jail.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

You seem very knowledgable of what to do when confronted with a knife. But for everyone else: running is usually the best defense. If he's faster than you, then this goes back to what I said about reasonable force. If you seriously injure him while he's holding the knife, that's perfectly fine. Fancy disarms don't work, distracting him by breaking his knee or gouging his eyes take his attention away from the knife, then it can be taken away from him. Once you have disarmed him, the balance of power has dramatically shifted and reasonable force dictates that you don't harm him anymore. "Teaching him a lesson" makes you the aggressor and if caught, you'd go to jail.

Escaping situation and if you cannot do that, you fight. While laws of reasonable force difference greatly, I can say that back here in Finland it is very strict. If you punch attacker with knife in the face, you will most prolly go to jail. But survival comes first. I have had cases in which I was "forced" ( my apologies for this word) to seriously injure the attacker. You should of course try to inflict minimal damage, but personally if two guys gank you by surprise, armed and with intention to really kill you ( one of those earlier experiences of mine) and you cannot escape.. well frankly in that case I don't care a damn if the other one leaves that place without working arm and other one crawls out.

The bad thing is that when you are doing security hob at festivals or bars or whatever, running rarely is an option. At least not for me in cases the aggressive client might just go and bash some poor guy who has no idea what is happening. This of course is a bit more complicated too. Luckily, there are lots of us usually ^^

And to drewmandan : Killing a man is quite easy and simple. That's all. You don't need to train years for that. You don't need no fancy techniques or styles. That's however is not what modern world martial arts are for, maybe for exception for military combat.

Killing a man is quite easy and simple.

It's surprising when you read up on anatomy just how many weak points the human body has.

Ninjutsu is more like tradition or set of different skills.

I seem to remember that it involves hand to hand combat as well as various other weapon skills, such as throwing stars, and also incorporates elements of stealth?